Man shoots own son in 'burglary'

I don't personally deem `self defence` a viable reason to own a gun, but as seeing it is in America, I suppose it is a point to note. However if a person is using a gun for protection from someone armed in their home, I don't think they're going to be to worried about a bullet going straight through and denting something, you wouldn't take a shot if family/friend is behind them anyway, always the chance you may pull the trigger too late, and the `criminal` would have moved (similar thing with rabbits, I swear the ones I hunt know I can't go near the cows...). I guess you could argue a HP will put them down quicker, but at the close ranges inside a house, you're likely to get a few shots in anyway. Personally if i had to chose a gun solely for self defence, i'd pick a shotgun, due to the fact i wouldn't know if my aim would be true, under those cirumstances.

I really do think Hollows are nasty bullets, and are suited to hunting, but useful for the police when taking someone down in public, to lower the risk of a bullet penetrating and getting another.

Ok what are they then? I'll give you a hint they are not assault rifles, assault rifles and assault weapons are not the same thing. Keep in mind that assault weapon term was created by the brady campaign to demonize unjustly certain guns/features.

And people do that all the time on their own property and at gun ranges, so what is your point? There is no need for alcoholic beverages to have more 5% alcohol in them is there? What need is there for an alcoholic beverage to have more than 5%? The .50 BMG probably could go through the armored cars.

If you are that bad of a shot maybe...maybe you want a 90 round drum because you want to go to a gun range or your own private range to shoot without having to reload constantly.....

Disagree with that, hallow points would have a use out side of hunting, for example self defense in your house would help protect against over penetration.

- Youre making very little sense
- It doesnt look like you read my post properly
- Alot of people do not understand what an "assault weapon" is in the USA. Even the US media get it wrong alot of the time. Confusion exists between "assault rifle" and "assault weapon".

I'm not American but I have spent a long time reading up about the subject of gun control. Alot of the stuff out there is specifically about the USA.

:O I'm gonna assume you meant `maximum` unless you want every new born child given 10 guns straight out the womb...

Whilst I agree that the gun laws could do with being stricter in the US, i think some of your bans are questionable;

-better of saying any gun that can fire fully auto/burstfire, to be banned (I think the US already restricts the sales of `assault weapons`). And if it is fully auto, to be restricted to fire on a straight-pull-back mechanism only, like the law in the uk is. I agree with this UK law, fully-autos are no good for target shooting and are a waste of ammo. Not to fond of the UK's law on banning all semi-autos other than .22LR/Long barrel revolvers, but that's a different story I guess.

-Banning extended mags? no good, you'd need to define a extended mag for each gun. And, as a target shooter, when using a semi auto, there are some competitions that require you to shoot rather quickly, Thus I have 4X25 round magazines, compared to the single 15 round magazine that came with the gun, I also plan on making a jungle-style clip using two of them, to reload a bit faster, whilst keeping my sights on the targets a bit easier.

-AP bullets, providing you just mean AP bullets, not FMJ's in general. i didn't even know americans could get their hands on a AP bullet, only purpose i could think of is to kill a human with those, so yeah, i don't disagree there, they shouldn't be available for civilian use. (unless those darn deers have gotten wiser, and started building armour for themselves!!

-Dum-Dums - Big disagree, vital for hunting/stalking/and also farmers with badgers/fox problems, hollow points aren't necessary on rabbits, but useful if you can't get a clear shot of their head. Restrict the US to only being allowed to buy Hollow Points if you hunt/stalk/pest control, like they do in the UK? I'd agree with that, HP's are nasty bullets, but generally a quicker/cleaner way of killing a animal

-Big Calibre guns, as a target shooter, I would love to shoot a big bad arse .50 BMG bolt action on the 1000 yard range down at Bisley...To me, that's my idea of `fun`, and imagine it to be other target shooters ideas of fun as well, so i don't see the need to ban the big ol' rifles.

I also think you shouldn't assume `bigger calibre=more scary`. I'm sure you probably don't assume this, but for anyone reading, that does think like this (and a lot of people do) I'll try to sum this up briefly, compare the .22LR with the .223, the actual calibre of the bullet isn't much, however the .223 is very similar to the NATO standard, 5.56 x 45mm NATO, the intermediate round used in the assault rifles. On the other end of the spectrum, whilst a .44/.45 sounds a big ol'd calibre (it is!) when used in the lever action rifles that can fire them, you'd be lucky to hit a target at 25 metres on your first go.

As a UK target shooter, I currently own two .44 revolvers, and a .22LR semi auto replica of a AK-47, but have shot many guns down the club! I think the UK's law on guns are strict, but fair, the only way i'd like to see the laws adjusted, is to unban .22LR pistol (especially the single shot ones!), and to have it so, that after a set amount of years of owning a FAC, you can maybe apply for a further permit to own a larger calibre semi-auto, and possibly a full bore pistol. If America were to ever go to the hassle of implementing similar laws to ours, it may pay off for them in the long run

None of this was meant to be a bash at you, I agree on some of your points, but just thought i'd point out the bits i didnt quite see where you were coming from, feel free to correct me, if you feel I am also wrong.

Sorry that post was meant somewhat tongue in cheek not to be taen to litterally



I believe it restricts the sale of fully automatic machine guns unless you can get an exemption but as for 'assault weapons' the ban was lifted back in 04 i believe Aye the UKs laws are far to harsh in my opinion they just serve to penalise honest shooters rather than protect people, the hoops you have to jump through to get a FAC are something heinous and theyre simply a knee jerk reaction to one nasty incident.


Im assuming you're american then? I was more reffering to the heavily extended clipssuch as the drum mags you can load into hand guns which take more bullets than the damn army ones However it must be said even 25 round magazines, except for rifles perhapse, are somewhat excessive are they not?


Its a tough one whilst the legal definition of AP bullets they are banned certain manufacurers like FN in Belgium have gotten around it with their FN five-seven whos bullets are morelike mini rifle rounds and have come under great attack for their ability to go through an armoured vest, that being said theyre seriously fun to shoot

Mmm its a fun trade off isnt it you ditch the stopping power of a HP for the penetration power of a FMJ and you get yelledat for each one Its tricky because evidently each one of these weapons in the right hands does have its uses but theyre so liable to abuse it makes it tricky doesnt it?


Oh aye I'd love to take one for a spin down at Bisley [wasnt aware you could though? Ive only ever seen people firing 5.56 and 7.62s down there] I was more reffering to the rising quantity of massive calibre weapons such as the:
.577 T-Rex
.577/450 Martini-Henry
.577/.500 Magnum Nitro Express
.585 Nyati
.600 Nitro Express
.600 Overkill
.700 Nitro Express
.70-150 Winchester
.950 JDJ
and other such over calibres guns, let alone the 20/25mm out there now

again true it does depend on the power behind the bullet but if you look at something like the .950JDJ it has a muzzle energy of around 52kj... that ****ers gunna pack a punch isnt it?


I have a question for you is it legal to actually own a hand gun? many say ra ra course not butif i remember rightly youre aloud to 'own' one if its kept at the club arent you? ho ho if america ever tryed that theyd have a full blown revolution, and a bloody well armedone at that



Once again most of the post you replied to was meant to jab at timmyboy but its a fair rebuttle, personally i quite like guns theyre great for sport and defence alike i just feel that some of the american lack of restrictions are somewhat detremental to their safety in general and arent especially useful anyway

Sorry for the very late reply (two words, `freshers week`) But i feel I ought to reply to some of your direct questions i can reply too :P especially with a good detailed message you posted

Firstly, I'm not American, but a lot of people assume I am when I start my tlaking about guns, I'm Welsh/British, and have lived in UK all my life.

Handguns in the UK are a grey area, generally all full bore pistols are classed as section 5 firearms, meaning their banned for anyone without special permit. To get special permit you need to either have `humane dispatch` on your FAC, but this normallymeans the magazine or cylinder is restricted to 2 shots, or prove the Pistol is of historical interest in some way. Long Barrel Pistols (often with a coat hanger stock, like some variants of the Taurus) are allowed.

My revolvers are both .44 blackpowder revolvers, meaning they aren't full bore, as you load the blackpowder/filler/bullet/percussion cap every time you fire (you don't just slip a ready made cartridge in!). I personally own a working replica of a 1851 Colt, and a working replica of a 1858 remington with 12" barrel, and detachable shoulder stock (very bad arse looking gun!)

And to be honest with you, I'm unaware of most of those calibres you stated, other tha the nitro express ones, (i'm trying to imagine what a gun that fires a .950 looks like!)

No worries, freshers is understandable

Aye i agree with you on that i've never quite been ableto understand the lawsas some people in the UK do legally own things like Glock 19's and the like and are even selling them on gunmart... just rather confused as to what excuse they used to manage to get them in the first place baring in mind you need a 'good reason'.

Ah gotcha, thought you meant you owned something like a Smith and Wesson Magnum or the like and was going to ask how on earth you got permission for one of those
May i ask what its like shooting black powder pistolsas ive only ever fired full bore handguns in the states, never tryed a Black powder one

Yar most of them are slightly obscure and used for big game shooting, baring in mindits essentually a shortened necked up 20mm round, its a ****ing big gun I imagine firing it would take your damn arm off

Technically speaking it reffers to semi automatic fast firing weapons, an assault rifle would however come under this would it not? To be fair though it wasnt exactly a bad ban, some ofthe weapons it banned were worthy of being banned such as the tec-9... nothing but a bullet hose with no use for hunting or plinking it was simply for killing.

You cant blow a human in half with a bottle of Vodka though now can you?

you can try and apply that argument to whatever you like but lets be honest its simply attacking a straw man seeing as the two are incomparable...

The .50BMG is, as i said before, used as an anti-material weapon and unless that annoying old wall in your garden needs to be shot to bits what need does anyone have for it? I was morereffering to the larger cartridges though such as the 20mm and upwards which seem to have gained a following lately, let me remind you that that cartirdge is designed solely for taking out planes, armoured trucks and missiles...

Maybe but if theyre that bad a shot would you trust them with a firearm anyway?

Thisisnt necesserally my own thoughts, especially the large magazine objections its awell cited concern by many Americans allowing people to walk around with drum magazines for machine pistols and the like, theres really no need for them and to be quite honest being to lazy to reload doesnt quite fly does it?

That is true, the problem with hollow points is theyre very unforgiving, make a small 1cm entry wound and blow a hole the size of a dinner plate when exiting...

Someone robs your house im all for disabling them but those bullets are designed to cause maximum catastrophic damage i.e. to kill and can be and are abused, Even the Germans complained about in the war...