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Can't constantly do 3000 calories a day yet increase my lifts 2.5kg a session?

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Original post by bestofyou
the foods they get, which are high in fats, will be completely natural and unprocessed.


That's right; the only unnatural fat is trans fat.

Original post by bestofyou
The Inuit operate in sub-zero temperatures and have done for a very long time. They have adapted to the Arctic conditions in both metabolic and circulatory ways.


Are you implying that environmental temperature alters the way our bodies utilise food?

Original post by bestofyou
So you can't really throw these facts at someone from the UK for example. Otherwise they'll go stuff their face with McDonalds and continue with a sedentary lifestyle and think this is all fine because they are getting the same amount of fat intake as some of the healthiest people in the world.


Is this how you would react to a study about the benefits of exercise in reversing the otherwise negative effects of a high fat western diet? Are you isolating my Inuit example out of context?

I agree that people like to see what they want to see, and that doesn't detract from the science. The Inuit diet is essentially ketogenic. That is, devoid of any significant carbohydrates. I didn't mention it because it's on the wikipedia page and I was merely challenging the notion that a diet high in saturated fat is intrinsically unhealthy. Are you not guilty of jumping to conclusions in the same way you've criticised others may do in response to the same information?

Original post by bestofyou
I would also beg to differ than an hour in the gym is suffice to justify the fat intake from the x3 servings of mozzarella and the weekly recommended allowance of red meat and in a single sitting.


You should read the study I cited if you're so invested on this point. The adverse affects of 16.5g of saturated fat was reversed and then improved from baseline in response to 45 minutes of walking. That's 20% more saturated fat than you get in 100g of mozzarella cheese, 1/3rd of the previous poster's example and more than most could consume in a single sitting. I wasn't trying to be patronising by saying "food for thought", so you can drop the passive aggressive attitude. I got involved in this thread to contribute, not argue.
Reply 61
Cutting bulking isn't always bound to work. Throwing some cardio to burn the remaining fat will also increase your ability to anaerobically respire.

In turn, your muscle can wear for longer and control an increase in lactic acid. Therefore your training will last longer.

Throw the cardio in ten minutes before lifting. Fewer breaks between sets. Get the most out of a shorter time and you will be cutting without cutting your dieting. Once you start you can't stop though!


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Original post by Fan service
That's right; the only unnatural fat is trans fat.


Well at least we can agree on something.

Are you implying that environmental temperature alters the way our bodies utilise food?


Yes. Ever wondered why people who die of dehydration in the mountains can't just eat snow? Our bodies use up way more energy in colder climates. On average, their bodies will be working much harder than the average european, even those in the highlands.

Is this how you would react to a study about the benefits of exercise in reversing the otherwise negative effects of a high fat western diet? Are you isolating my Inuit example out of context?


I'll admit I was being a bit of a dick here. All I am saying is that over the course of an average day, the Inuit's body will be working harder. You mentioned going for a 45minute walk below for example. That just simply isn't comparable to what the Inuit would be doing each day, particularly when you factor in the sub-zero temperatures.

I agree that people like to see what they want to see, and that doesn't detract from the science. The Inuit diet is essentially ketogenic. That is, devoid of any significant carbohydrates. I didn't mention it because it's on the wikipedia page and I was merely challenging the notion that a diet high in saturated fat is intrinsically unhealthy. Are you not guilty of jumping to conclusions in the same way you've criticised others may do in response to the same information?


I never said that a diet high in saturated fat is unhealthy, in fact if you scroll up you'll find I actually have posted a video from the movie fathead which shows that the whole high fat diet isn't the evil it has been made out to be. I actually disagree with the movie, it seems more like a 'stuff your face with McDonalds, its good for you' kind of thing as opposed to saturated fats aren't that bad.

You should read the study I cited if you're so invested on this point. The adverse affects of 16.5g of saturated fat was reversed and then improved from baseline in response to 45 minutes of walking. That's 20% more saturated fat than you get in 100g of mozzarella cheese, 1/3rd of the previous poster's example and more than most could consume in a single sitting. I wasn't trying to be patronising by saying "food for thought", so you can drop the passive aggressive attitude. I got involved in this thread to contribute, not argue.


I will read it when I get a chance at the weekend.

Does the reversal of these adverse affects include things like skin spots from high fat diets?
Original post by bestofyou

Our bodies use up way more energy in colder climates. On average, their bodies will be working much harder than the average european, even those in the highlands. [...]
You mentioned going for a 45minute walk below for example. That just simply isn't comparable to what the Inuit would be doing each day, particularly when you factor in the sub-zero temperatures.


What are you trying to say? That their physical activity prevents their diet from affecting their health? Are you saying it would be unhealthy for me? Or the Inuit women who stays at home and doesn't participate in hunting? What if I stopped exercising and started a keto diet? Are you saying my arteries would suffer? If your message doesn't lead to anywhere precise, it's hard to understand what you're trying to say.

Conserving body heat is physically more economical than the production or dissipation of heat, the latter of which only increases metabolic rate significantly when we have to shiver to maintain core temperature. Inuits favour insulation over shivering and movement, because it leads to sweating, and then they risk catching hyperthermia quicker. Beyond this, I'm unqualfied to discuss Inuit lifestyle. They're not as physically active a people as you might think, even considering the cold stress.

Original post by bestofyou
I never said that a diet high in saturated fat is unhealthy


You explicitly identified one as unhealthy precisely due to its saturated fat content, so that was the conclusion I drew. Saturated fat + carbohydrates however, and without an active lifestyle, is intrinsically unhealthy for reasons you probably know intuitively, but with exercise, even minimal physical activity, the same diet has the complete opposite effect. I'm paraphrasing my first post. This isn't supposed to be new information; I think it would've been more sensible to examine the links I provided before responding to my statements. That way you can see if I've misconstrued something, or if the data itself is unreliable. I didn't share the study arbitrary as if it were a certificate to validate my opinion.

Original post by bestofyou

Does the reversal of these adverse affects include things like skin spots from high fat diets?


It's a study about arterial function after high fat meals. The researchers wouldn't be concerned with acne.
Original post by Fan service
What are you trying to say? That their physical activity prevents their diet from affecting their health? Are you saying it would be unhealthy for me? Or the Inuit women who stays at home and doesn't participate in hunting? What if I stopped exercising and started a keto diet? Are you saying my arteries would suffer? If your message doesn't lead to anywhere precise, it's hard to understand what you're trying to say.


Yes, I am saying their physical activity allows them to have a high fat diet and not suffer cardiovascular problems. If you were to engage in such a diet and sit around doing nothing, then yes, I am willing to bet you would encounter some serious problems, even outside of cardiovascular ones such as type two diabetes or other conditions that the chance of forming are increased if you are overweight.

Like I said already, I am not disputing the fact that saturated fat is not a cause of health problems, I'm saying it can be combined with a sedentary life-style.

Inuit women do not sit around doing nothing, sorry, that is just not true. I know that isn't what you said, but it seemed to be implied (whether or not you meant to) with the 'stay at home and don't go hunting' comment.

Conserving body heat is physically more economical than the production or dissipation of heat, the latter of which only increases metabolic rate significantly when we have to shiver to maintain core temperature. Inuits favour insulation over shivering and movement, because it leads to sweating, and then they risk catching hyperthermia quicker. Beyond this, I'm unqualfied to discuss Inuit lifestyle. They're not as physically active a people as you might think, even considering the cold stress.


I am well aware they do not walk around naked in the snow or spend nights in freezing conditions. We've all seen Pingu, clearly Arctic people will try and avoid being cold at all costs. However, I am saying on average, their bodies are going to spend longer each day trying to stay warm. If you've ever spent a full day outdoors in the cold, you will know that it is not possible to remain warm the full time.

Regardless of how physically active/inactive they are, on average they are more active than the average European.


You explicitly identified one as unhealthy precisely due to its saturated fat content, so that was the conclusion I drew. Saturated fat + carbohydrates however, and without an active lifestyle, is intrinsically unhealthy for reasons you probably know intuitively, but with exercise, even minimal physical activity, the same diet has the complete opposite effect. I'm paraphrasing my first post. This isn't supposed to be new information; I think it would've been more sensible to examine the links I provided before responding to my statements. That way you can see if I've misconstrued something, or if the data itself is unreliable. I didn't share the study arbitrary as if it were a certificate to validate my opinion.

It's a study about arterial function after high fat meals. The researchers wouldn't be concerned with acne.



Only arterial function after high fat meals? Immediately after or long term? I'm sure eating a high fat diet meal won't give me a heart attack, eating it everyday for 30years though? Probably not given recent studies, however I never said anything about cardiovascular health and high-fat diets in my initial post. Just because the diet isn't associated with cardiovascular problems, it doesn't mean it still isn't bad for you.

Oh so they only ruled out cardiovascular issues then. What about the potential link between high-fat diets and pancreatic cancer, which only 1 in 7 patients survive more than a year after diagnoses?

As far as I am aware, high fat is not a proven cause of pancreatic cancer, however it hasn't been proven not to be a cause and there have been a lot of studies linking the two, though there are mixed results.

You may find this interesting given your fascination with the Inuit people.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3417692/
(edited 10 years ago)
Original post by bestofyou
Yes, I am saying their physical activity allows them to have a high fat diet and not suffer cardiovascular problems. If you were to engage in such a diet and sit around doing nothing, then yes, I am willing to bet you would encounter some serious problems, even outside of cardiovascular ones such as type two diabetes or other conditions that the chance of forming are increased if you are overweight.


How could either of us possibly know this?

There are two assumptions being made here, namely that a ketogenic diet is associated to diabetes, and that most Inuits would eat well above their means without exercise (and become overweight). Neither is true, in fact most diabetics eliminate the symptoms of their condition by eating keto, which makes sense because glucose would no longer play a role in metabolism.

That tangent aside, I agree that being overweight clearly warrants health concerns. Obesity and all of its associated conditions is so prevalent in western societies because we eat a lot of calorically dense food. What fat guys eat - so long as it's not riddled with trans fats or preservatives or charred meat - isn't nearly as important as knowing that they're fat, they're in a state of fatness, they're everything Little Britain's Fat Fighters have to say about fat people, and that they're fat because they eat a lot on a sedentary lifestyle. This part is crucial, because you simply can't talk about nutrition outside the context of environment, i.e. our activity levels. And because they're fat, their odds of developing hypertension, diabetes, stiff arteries, etc. increase. Inuits don't generally have these problems (overeating and processed food). Take a professional athlete eating 2lbs of red meat/day with lots of salts, lots of sugar to maintain their weight during training, and their heart will look like that of a professional athlete. The diet isn't holding them back, either.

I'm pretty confident neither of us can identify a mechanism in which saturated fats can be attributable to heart disease, because there is no substantial evidence, only speculation.Most government authorities advise it as a "risk factor" for heart disease and a causal link has never been established in the literature. Precisely because of this assumption, new research continually attempts to make clear that this is the case, some of which suggest that it is in fact the processing that occurs in much of our food supply that deserves the most attention. Soem observations:

It's easier to gain weight by eating fatty foods
Being fat is bad for your health
Regular exercise prevents overeating
Overeating =/= high fat diet
Ketogenic diets are just as healthy as any other

Original post by bestofyou

I'm sure eating a high fat diet meal won't give me a heart attack, eating it everyday for 30years though?


Meta-analysis of prospective cohort studies evaluating the association of saturated fat with cardiovascular disease. 347,747 patients over a 23 year period:

A meta-analysis of prospective epidemiologic studies showed that there is no significant evidence for concluding that dietary saturated fat is associated with an increased risk of CHD or CVD. More data are needed to elucidate whether CVD risks are likely to be influenced by the specific nutrients used to replace saturated fat.


Original post by bestofyou
I never said anything about cardiovascular health and high-fat diets in my initial post.


We were originally talking about saturated fats specifically.

Original post by bestofyou

0.5 and 0.3 kilos of beef and mozzarella respectively is a **** load of saturated fat [...] that is not good for your heart.


I don't know anything about pancreatic cancer, and it would take a different discussion entirely, one that would have serious implications for everyone on keto but also one beyond our relative expertise. It was only for today and yesterday that I've been an armchair expert on the particular issues of saturated fat and the importance of exercise. I didn't intend to drag it out but I don't like to be rude. For now I'd like to consider it settled, because OP will do what he will do and it's not like he'll overeat himself into oblivion without training. phew
Original post by Fan service

I don't know anything about pancreatic cancer, and it would take a different discussion entirely, one that would have serious implications for everyone on keto but also one beyond our relative expertise. It was only for today and yesterday that I've been an armchair expert on the particular issues of saturated fat and the importance of exercise. I didn't intend to drag it out but I don't like to be rude. For now I'd like to consider it settled, because OP will do what he will do and it's not like he'll overeat himself into oblivion without training. phew


Fair enough.

I'd also like to apologise, I may have come across as a bit of a dick in some of my posts.

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