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Does anyone feel sorry for this couple?

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Original post by n00
Yet thats exactly what you seem to want. Again if the law applies to everyone equally where is the discrimination?


well you seem to think that its not ok to discriminate against someone because they're gay, but you can if they're religious.
Reply 161
Original post by blurrygirl
well you seem to think that its not ok to discriminate against someone because they're gay, but you can if they're religious.


What has given you that impression? I've quite clearly stated the law should apply equally to everyone.

Do you feel a rastafarian is discriminated against because they're prevented from smoking cannabis?
Reply 162
The law in this matter is incredibly illiberal.

3 ways to deal with this B&B couples' discrimination.

1. Threaten to burn their house down so they will let homosexuals use their services. If they refuse their business will longer exist.

2. Use the law to force to let homosexuals use their services. If they refuse to change, their business will no longer exist.

3. Boycott their service until they let homosexuals use their services. If most people do this then, their business won't be able to exist.


Obviously 1 is incredibly unlawful (and rightly so) that it is out of the question. However people fail to realise that 2 is almost as bad.

It is coercion pure and simple. We don't like your beliefs so will are going to criminalise your beliefs. This is incredibly illiberal. The only just cause for coercion is if it is to prevent harm or the violation of others rights.

While the gay couple may have been upset, they weren't really harmed also no right of theirs was violated.

Option 3 is the best as it requires no explicit coercion. Many married heterosexual couples (and even possibly religious) would disagree with the B&B couples belief and would refuse to use their service. I certainly boycott a service that discriminates on basis of sexuality, gender, race, religion etc. I believe most people would.
Hence we can vilify certain beliefs without coercion.
Reply 163
Original post by Falcatas
Option 3 is the best as it requires no explicit coercion. Many married heterosexual couples (and even possibly religious) would disagree with the B&B couples belief and would refuse to use their service. I certainly boycott a service that discriminates on basis of sexuality, gender, race, religion etc. I believe most people would.
Hence we can vilify certain beliefs without coercion.


Genius, we don't need any laws, we can just tut at those that would once have been criminals and encourge others to tut and hey presto problem solved.

Many homophobes would be delighted to have a B&B where no gays are allowed, it could become a selling point, if not no problem, just don't advertise the fact you don't allow gays, as its now not illegal its unlikely to become widely known so you don't need worry about boycotts, you only have a limited number of beds anyway.
(edited 10 years ago)
Reply 164
Original post by n00
Genius, we don't need any laws, we can just tut at those that would once have been criminals and encourge others to tut and hey presto problem solved.

Many homophobes would be delighted to have a B&B where no gays are allowed, it could become a selling point, if not no problem, just don't advertise the fact you don't allow gays, as its now not illegal its unlikely to become widely known so you don't need worry about boycotts, you only have a limited number of beds anyway.


Do you realise that homophobia is becoming significantly rarer now?
Anyways people who wouldn't boycott would have their beliefs called out on too.

Let bigots be bigots. Free expression and belief that doesn't harm should not be criminal not matter how abhorrent it may be.

The purpose of law should to be protect violations of individuals rights. Not to punish belief.
(edited 10 years ago)
I'm torn, personally, but I would be inclined to say that the Supreme Court made the right decision. Obviously there are arguments to be made about the rights of businesses to serve or not serve whoever they want but I think that needs some qualification. In particular, I think the emphasis of the case is slightly wrong - I would have said the key issue was rather whether, in the course of running a business where one normally doesn't mind who one contracts with, businesses should be entitled to turn customers away on the basis of a policy which (1) they hadn't made sufficiently clear that they had, and (2) a breach of wouldn't affect the way in which they run their business. Obviously the discrimination is an issue but I think it's been overplayed as a result of the public hype.

As a pure matter of contract law the Bulls would have breached the contract they had made with the gay couple by repudiating their booking. It would be impossible to imply the term requiring that the people booking a double room would be heterosexual and married into the contract since it wasn't reasonable to assume that the customers were agreeing to be bound by it (as there was a good chance they wouldn't have been aware of the policy).

On a less black-letter point of view, I think it's an important distinction to make that letting a gay couple stay would have made no difference to the way in which the Bulls administered their services than if they had been heterosexual and married. If they had had a similar policy of not allowing children under 10 stay, for example, it might be different - since providing the services to a child might be substantially different to providing for an adult, and so arguably it might be more reasonable for them to turn people away in that situation.

I would agree with the business owner's right to decide who he trades with, but only where either (i) he's in a situation where it would objectively be expected that he cares who he contracts with, or (ii) he has made it sufficiently clear that he doesn't wish to contract with a certain type of people. Regarding (i), if for example you were running a rock-climbing wall, you wouldn't want to contract with anyone who showed up and paid the price to get in - you'd want to make sure they were going to be safe first; hence why most places require you to undergo some sort of assessment before you can just turn up and climb. But at a hotel it's different - the general implication is that you'll be prepared to form a contract with, and give a room to, anyone who turns up able to pay the asking price.

So yeah, although I can see both sides of the argument I think the Supreme Court got this one right.
Original post by Falcatas
The law in this matter is incredibly illiberal.

3 ways to deal with this B&B couples' discrimination.

1. Threaten to burn their house down so they will let homosexuals use their services. If they refuse their business will longer exist.

2. Use the law to force to let homosexuals use their services. If they refuse to change, their business will no longer exist.

3. Boycott their service until they let homosexuals use their services. If most people do this then, their business won't be able to exist.


Obviously 1 is incredibly unlawful (and rightly so) that it is out of the question. However people fail to realise that 2 is almost as bad.

It is coercion pure and simple. We don't like your beliefs so will are going to criminalise your beliefs. This is incredibly illiberal. The only just cause for coercion is if it is to prevent harm or the violation of others rights.

While the gay couple may have been upset, they weren't really harmed also no right of theirs was violated.

Option 3 is the best as it requires no explicit coercion. Many married heterosexual couples (and even possibly religious) would disagree with the B&B couples belief and would refuse to use their service. I certainly boycott a service that discriminates on basis of sexuality, gender, race, religion etc. I believe most people would.
Hence we can vilify certain beliefs without coercion.


I'd say the best option is in fact:

4. Don't actually force them to serve you, but be a nuisance until they do.

For example, take the Southern US Civil Rights sit-ins, where black activists would simply walk in and sit down in the 'white' reserved areas.

Admittedly, things like that can take a lot of organisation. For something less planned in a situation like this, do something like push the beds together, have sex and sleep in the same bed anyway, and leave the room in a state that makes it clear that you did so.
Reply 167
Original post by anarchism101
I'd say the best option is in fact:

4. Don't actually force them to serve you, but be a nuisance until they do.

For example, take the Southern US Civil Rights sit-ins, where black activists would simply walk in and sit down in the 'white' reserved areas.

Admittedly, things like that can take a lot of organisation. For something less planned in a situation like this, do something like push the beds together, have sex and sleep in the same bed anyway, and leave the room in a state that makes it clear that you did so.


Being a nuisance is usually coercion so no it wouldn't the best option is this case.
However if the policy was state sanctioned then it would be a much more attractive option.
Original post by Falcatas
Being a nuisance is usually coercion so no it wouldn't the best option is this case.
However if the policy was state sanctioned then it would be a much more attractive option.


In what sense is nuisance coercion? Unless you're using a very broad definition of 'coercion'?
Reply 169
Original post by anarchism101
In what sense is nuisance coercion? Unless you're using a very broad definition of 'coercion'?


Well what do you mean by nuisance? If it is like knocking things of shelves, shouting at staff members until they give you want you want then that is what I mean by coercion.
Excuse me, but as much as I find their views repellent, it's their own damn hostel. We're getting into a dangerous game when we say that the State can decide people's behaviour to this degree.

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