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The old private/state debate...
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belle_27
Wrong. Teachers who work in state schools get paid more money than those who work in independent schools as they work longer contracts whereas in private schools teachers get paid less as they get more holidays.
Thats a really sweeping generalisation! I go to a private school and the number of people going to top ten unis isn't really that high, loads of people are going to unis like Nottingham, Birmingham, Manchester and Leeds which aren't in the top ten. Very few each year go to Durham, LSE, Imperial, 2 went to Durham last year and those getting into Oxbridge are also usually few and far between. I think 6 people out of a year of 92 got in this year but only 5 accepted their offers. The year before 12 people got in which was the highest number EVER achieved at my school (which for the sake of comparison comes around no.25 in the league tables).
Thats a really sweeping generalisation! I go to a private school and the number of people going to top ten unis isn't really that high, loads of people are going to unis like Nottingham, Birmingham, Manchester and Leeds which aren't in the top ten. Very few each year go to Durham, LSE, Imperial, 2 went to Durham last year and those getting into Oxbridge are also usually few and far between. I think 6 people out of a year of 92 got in this year but only 5 accepted their offers. The year before 12 people got in which was the highest number EVER achieved at my school (which for the sake of comparison comes around no.25 in the league tables).
Sorry, you're right - what I really meant were the top public schools, like St Pauls, Westminster, Eton, Harrow, etc etc. At those kinds of place, 1/3 to 1/2 of the year go to Oxbridge, with the majority of the rest going to top ten uni/ Ivy League/ top art school/conservatoire.
As for payment - the top public schools charge so much money partially to afford the best teachers! Certainly they are better paid than at state schools.
Suzi_law
Hmm... no-one got bullied at my school for being clever
calcium878
Same at mine, maybe it's just variation.
I did, a bit. I do think that the atmosphere at my Comprehensive encouraged you to make less of an effort than a Private or a Grammar school's would. Up until last year, I had always been in the minority in that I'm quite bright and interested in learning. All through High School, I've made a serious effort to avoid drawing attention to myself, by avoiding answering questions in class, by talking in lessons, leaving homework late, and so on, because I didn't want to be picked on any more than I was. A person with a stronger personality wouldn't have this problem I suppose, but I really didn't like the prospect of being bullied by a load of teenagers who've lived on council estates in Hull for most of their lives.
Incidentally, one of my closest friends is one of these types, the sort of person that I might stereotype as a Chav at first glance. She's trustworthy and kind, not academic (Fs, Es and Ds at GCSE most likely. She wants to be a nurse.), but quite sharp otherwise. She is good with children. The burgeoning casual racism (the kind caused by ignorance rather than malice) that marred her otherwise sunny personality has gone. Partly, I hope, because of my nagging and explanations of why the term 'paki spot' in reference to a Bindi is so horribly offensive, but probably due to her own befriending of Polish immigrants at her workplace. The day she said 'they don't just come here to steal our jobs, it annoys me so much when people say that,' made me so happy for her.
But really, my school is okay. The 'inclusive' Sixth Form should be better seeing as most of the disruptive kids will have gone. There are some really and truly shockingly bad teachers, but also a few really good ones, namely my Science and History teacher. They support everyone and actually seem to care about us. The results are bad, but when the much of the student intake is from an isolated and (culturally and economically) deprived area, you can't expect them to work miracles. We are not pushed towards A*s because only three or four people in the very top sets have a hope in hell of achieving them – why put down the majority? It’s not necessarily bad, as it means you have to motivate yourself (I'm not too great at that, sadly). I’m good at rambling inconclusively in the early hours, though.
Originally posted by Major Major
We are not pushed towards A*s because only three or four people in the very top sets have a hope in hell of achieving them – why put down the majority?
We are not pushed towards A*s because only three or four people in the very top sets have a hope in hell of achieving them – why put down the majority?
Just wanted to pick on this......I've seen loads of comments about how students that aren't so academic but go to private schools are able to come out with As and A*s and in some respects thats true; but its not due to the schools efforts. Those students will be the ones whose parents will pay for them to go on revision courses and private tutors etc that will explain things to them at the level they want and they're usually people that can learn things parrot fashion therefore doing well in many exams.
But what I liked above the above statement is that it makes a very valid point, for the people who aren't so academic and who don't have the ambitious parents going to a private school helps them in no way as the level of teaching isn't at their level of understanding. They're not helped by the teaching because they don't understand it. I've had brilliant teachers before in subjects like Chemistry who made it seem sooo easy and I've wondered why other people don't understand it as well as me with that standard of teaching. I know people in my school who've struggled to get Bs and Cs because the level of teaching is beyond their understanding.
For very academic people private schools are good because they provide the academic environment that helps them to achieve and allows them to explore areas of interest without others holding them back because they don't understand. But for those who aren't academic it can seriously hinder their ability because they can't understand it and the only way for them to improve is to spend the time going over it themselves or seek help in their lunchhour but there's only so much that teachers can help outside of class. Although one really good thing I've found about my school (private) is that people are really supportive of each other, so those who were really good at maths were prepared to help others who weren't so good understand various topics.
Originally posted by kizer
Sorry, you're right - what I really meant were the top public schools, like St Pauls, Westminster, Eton, Harrow, etc etc. At those kinds of place, 1/3 to 1/2 of the year go to Oxbridge, with the majority of the rest going to top ten uni/ Ivy League/ top art school/conservatoire.
Sorry, you're right - what I really meant were the top public schools, like St Pauls, Westminster, Eton, Harrow, etc etc. At those kinds of place, 1/3 to 1/2 of the year go to Oxbridge, with the majority of the rest going to top ten uni/ Ivy League/ top art school/conservatoire.
Thats more or less accurate, a third of those at North London Collegiate got Oxbridge offers this year but it really varies at the top private schools, I know a top private school that gets around 10 people in to Oxbridge each year. Also Harrow school is no longer considered a top private school. Its slipped considerably in standards over the last few years and is considered easy to get into. They don't churn out the As and A*s in the way that they used to.
Oriignally posted by kizer
As for payment - the top public schools charge so much money partially to afford the best teachers! Certainly they are better paid than at state schools
As for payment - the top public schools charge so much money partially to afford the best teachers! Certainly they are better paid than at state schools
And how do they know who are the best teachers? Its not like they're celebrities who can be easily spotted. Private schools do have a lot of good teachers but many have previously taught in the state sector or leave to return to it. They also have their fair share of bad teachers. I've had loads of bad and mediocre teachers. I've also had good ones and a few that were brilliant. But there's a mix, I've had some horrendous physics teachers. In the 5 years I did physics I only had 2 good ones, one for a year and the other for a term. I ended up doing appalingly in my physics paper for Dual Science GCSE.
Also the starting salary for an NQT is higher at a state school than a private school so teachers will generally get paid more in the state sector as they work for longer; the longer you work the more you get paid. Private schools attract teachers through other means i.e. other things in their contract like long holidays and the fact that they have plenty of resources, there's little bureaucracy to haggle with. The teachers at my school have not always worked in private schools but in some really bad state schools eg Haydon (for anyone living in Hillingdon/Herts).
Also the high prices are to pay for resources and to cover costs. My school charges the lowest amount possible to pay teachers, cover costs, maintainence etc. Some schools might charge enough to fund things like sports centres etc but mine had to fundraise to get the money for it and it took around 8 years to raise the money for a sports centre. Most top private schools rely on generous benefactors or old pupils to help them get top facilities. They might pay headteachers more but for the average teacher they're better off pay wise in the state sector. One of my teachers who just left to go to work in a grammer school came to my school because she liked the long holidays. Different teachers seek different things in a job but pay is not something that attracts them to private schools.
I went to a state school for my GCSEs, and to a private school for my A-Levels (it selected pupils on merit only).
Teaching - brilliant in both. My state school has a wonderful headmaster who works closely with the teachers and only gives the fantastic teachers a job. Every teacher is great academically (with 2 teachers from Cambridge and a few from other leading unis) and fantastic personally, in that you can come to him/her with any problem. In my private school, teaching was also gret, but not exclusivly, and some of the teachers were "worse" than in the state school (it's not universal probably).
Classmates: "better" at the private school. I have found some great friends at my state school, but unfortunately we didn't have the same ambitions and I felt I was missing out intellectually (e.g. we never talked about politics, the economy, academic subjects etc). Most of my friends were from the working class and said "I don't wanna do sixth form cos a-levels are hard init", while I was aiming at the best universities out there. I missed these friends a lot when I first came to the private school, but I have found people there to be amazing. They too wanted to go to university, a lot of them applied to Oxbridge, we could discuss the articles from The Times and Guardian and have debates about the upcoming election, in which all of my private school friends took place (everyone who was over 18 anyway).
I understand why so many people argue for all-state education, but I think it is to the benefit of the society to encourage young people. I think some of my friends at the state school had the potential to do A-Levels and may be university, and although the school encouraged further education, it wasn't seen as a necessity in their society and within their parents. Had they gone to a private school, they would have probably aspired to continue with their education - or at least think about it.
Teaching - brilliant in both. My state school has a wonderful headmaster who works closely with the teachers and only gives the fantastic teachers a job. Every teacher is great academically (with 2 teachers from Cambridge and a few from other leading unis) and fantastic personally, in that you can come to him/her with any problem. In my private school, teaching was also gret, but not exclusivly, and some of the teachers were "worse" than in the state school (it's not universal probably).
Classmates: "better" at the private school. I have found some great friends at my state school, but unfortunately we didn't have the same ambitions and I felt I was missing out intellectually (e.g. we never talked about politics, the economy, academic subjects etc). Most of my friends were from the working class and said "I don't wanna do sixth form cos a-levels are hard init", while I was aiming at the best universities out there. I missed these friends a lot when I first came to the private school, but I have found people there to be amazing. They too wanted to go to university, a lot of them applied to Oxbridge, we could discuss the articles from The Times and Guardian and have debates about the upcoming election, in which all of my private school friends took place (everyone who was over 18 anyway).
I understand why so many people argue for all-state education, but I think it is to the benefit of the society to encourage young people. I think some of my friends at the state school had the potential to do A-Levels and may be university, and although the school encouraged further education, it wasn't seen as a necessity in their society and within their parents. Had they gone to a private school, they would have probably aspired to continue with their education - or at least think about it.
kizer
As for payment - the top public schools charge so much money partially to afford the best teachers! Certainly they are better paid than at state schools.
What do you mean about payment. I used to live in Gants Hill (near end of Central Line, West Essex) and I got into Bancrofts, Chigwell and Forest Schools and their fees are the same as 'Top Public Schools' such as St Pauls, City of London etc, but are not as prestigious as them.
I go to Kings, which is actually better that Eton and Harrow according to Leauge tables, but to be honest, the way our teachers speak they get paid the same in comparison to the schools leauge position, therefore my teachers get the same as City of London, St Pauls etc teachers.
Just because a teacher gets paid more doesn't mean that they will teach you better - lets not be stupid.
At the end of the day, the exam boards provide us with allt eh tinformation we need and out teachers 'assist our learning'.
I think that private/state school debate could go on forever - I just say if you are lucky enough to go, be glad, and if you dont go to one dont worry.
Josh
I think that this is quite absurd. People are going on singular experiences, and are as a result judging and generalising far too much.
At my school, Westminster, I would be incredibly bored if the teaching didn't go beyond the syllabus. But I'm sure that at other private/public schools, they teach you how to do well in exams, rather than how to think independently and creatively (which is what I'm starting to do more and more). By the same token, some state schools are going to teach up to grade C level, whilst some are going to give extra provision for brighter students, and some simply aren't going to either.
You can't really compare outside of the "bands" of schooling, if it would be OK to phrase it like that. I can't even really compare the experience my brother had at Eton, and the experience I'm currently having at Westminster. And I'm reasonably confident that all schools are at least slightly different in their teaching style, their aims, and their beliefs.
So having given my two cents on my experience, I'm sure that I'll now be barraged by people saying that x is better than y, and y is better than z, whilst all I shall say is that they are different.
At my school, Westminster, I would be incredibly bored if the teaching didn't go beyond the syllabus. But I'm sure that at other private/public schools, they teach you how to do well in exams, rather than how to think independently and creatively (which is what I'm starting to do more and more). By the same token, some state schools are going to teach up to grade C level, whilst some are going to give extra provision for brighter students, and some simply aren't going to either.
You can't really compare outside of the "bands" of schooling, if it would be OK to phrase it like that. I can't even really compare the experience my brother had at Eton, and the experience I'm currently having at Westminster. And I'm reasonably confident that all schools are at least slightly different in their teaching style, their aims, and their beliefs.
So having given my two cents on my experience, I'm sure that I'll now be barraged by people saying that x is better than y, and y is better than z, whilst all I shall say is that they are different.
henryt
So having given my two cents on my experience, I'm sure that I'll now be barraged by people saying that x is better than y, and y is better than z, whilst all I shall say is that they are different.
So having given my two cents on my experience, I'm sure that I'll now be barraged by people saying that x is better than y, and y is better than z, whilst all I shall say is that they are different.
You could also say that, the school system forming an ordered set, S, and schools being denoted by x,y,z, then it must have the fundamental property such that, if and , then . Pay attention Henry!
Lusus Naturae
You could also say that, the school system forming an ordered set, S, and schools being denoted by x,y,z, then it must have the fundamental property such that, if 
and 
, 
then 
. Pay attention Henry!
and , then . Pay attention Henry! Sorry!! I was thinking of talking about whether we could come up with an isomorphic group on given conditions, but I decided against it because people might stop listening to me... If people listen to me, that is...
henryt
I think that this is quite absurd. People are going on singular experiences, and are as a result judging and generalising far too much.
At my school, Westminster, I would be incredibly bored if the teaching didn't go beyond the syllabus. But I'm sure that at other private/public schools, they teach you how to do well in exams, rather than how to think independently and creatively (which is what I'm starting to do more and more). By the same token, some state schools are going to teach up to grade C level, whilst some are going to give extra provision for brighter students, and some simply aren't going to either.
You can't really compare outside of the "bands" of schooling, if it would be OK to phrase it like that. I can't even really compare the experience my brother had at Eton, and the experience I'm currently having at Westminster. And I'm reasonably confident that all schools are at least slightly different in their teaching style, their aims, and their beliefs.
So having given my two cents on my experience, I'm sure that I'll now be barraged by people saying that x is better than y, and y is better than z, whilst all I shall say is that they are different.
At my school, Westminster, I would be incredibly bored if the teaching didn't go beyond the syllabus. But I'm sure that at other private/public schools, they teach you how to do well in exams, rather than how to think independently and creatively (which is what I'm starting to do more and more). By the same token, some state schools are going to teach up to grade C level, whilst some are going to give extra provision for brighter students, and some simply aren't going to either.
You can't really compare outside of the "bands" of schooling, if it would be OK to phrase it like that. I can't even really compare the experience my brother had at Eton, and the experience I'm currently having at Westminster. And I'm reasonably confident that all schools are at least slightly different in their teaching style, their aims, and their beliefs.
So having given my two cents on my experience, I'm sure that I'll now be barraged by people saying that x is better than y, and y is better than z, whilst all I shall say is that they are different.
Wise words. But what is absurd is brushing away the fundamental issue underlying this debate. Is it fair that private schools should exist in the first place? I think they should, not because I attend one, but simply because I am a progressive with a great belief in choice. However there is a case for them to answer. Are they really charities, what does Westminister School do for the community?
I personally have no bias against private schools as I have attended a state comprehensives all my life and I have quite a few friends from private schools so I can see things from both perspectives. If parents feel that they want to pay for their child's education in order for them to get quality education then fair enough that's their choice. I do believe however to be given the chance to mix with people from a variety of backgrounds (racial and social) and having to work really hard when you get really bad teachers is part of the comprehensive life and can be an advantage to us. Even though some pupils get discouraged by some schools which offers poor standards of teaching, many can become encouraged and motivated to strive for the best. However the whole image of state comprehensives, especially inner city ones needs to be changed in some people's minds because comps can offer many opportunities as well.
I happen to have gone to a very good secondary comprehensive and currently go to the joint comprehensive 6th form where you can be clever and people will commend you on being that rather than hold something against you for your intelligence. I think this encouragement makes us want to achieve top grades and not fear being made unpopular because of our intelligence. Every year in my 6th form on average about 5/6 people get into Oxbridge and teachers work hard to help Oxbridge candidates and people who want to get into top unis but don't neglect others who perhaps don't want to go down that route and offer alternatives. When people see my GCSE results (11A*s 2As) many people may assume I went to a private school but I didn't and there were quite a few people who got similar results so we can achieve really well academically. Although our school may not have the funds to provide many facilities that private schools may have, we make the most out of what we've got
I happen to have gone to a very good secondary comprehensive and currently go to the joint comprehensive 6th form where you can be clever and people will commend you on being that rather than hold something against you for your intelligence. I think this encouragement makes us want to achieve top grades and not fear being made unpopular because of our intelligence. Every year in my 6th form on average about 5/6 people get into Oxbridge and teachers work hard to help Oxbridge candidates and people who want to get into top unis but don't neglect others who perhaps don't want to go down that route and offer alternatives. When people see my GCSE results (11A*s 2As) many people may assume I went to a private school but I didn't and there were quite a few people who got similar results so we can achieve really well academically. Although our school may not have the funds to provide many facilities that private schools may have, we make the most out of what we've got
Ayo
Wise words. But what is absurd is brushing away the fundamental issue underlying this debate. Is it fair that private schools should exist in the first place? I think they should, not because I attend one, but simply because I am a progressive with a great belief in choice. However there is a case for them to answer. Are they really charities, what does Westminister School do for the community?
You'd be surprised! We have numerous events during the year, some run on a school-wide basis, some run b the individual houses. For instance, every Christmas, Westminster has collected and packed hundreds of hampers, which are distributed to the elderly of Westminster. We recently had a Fashion Show which raised over £1000 for Wateraid, and Milne's house has raised over £7000 in total for Trinity Hospice. We also accept enthusiastic students from the nearby Greycoat's Hospital school to study classics with our students, as it is a subject which isn't offered at their school. We've also sponsored a school in Sri Lanka for blind and deaf children, which needed considerable funding, especially after the Tsunami hit their buildings. Also, every summer, a residential course is run whereby Westminster students look after Physically handicapped from a certain London care centre. There is also a Community service option every Tuesday and Thursday afternoon, which can involve helping at a hospital, a primary school, a charity shop or having tea with the elderly of Westminster. We're also a member of Envision, which is a national charity scheme which involves many different schools around the country. Each year we also generally have a different special charity, chosen by the charity commitee, and all collections from Concerts and Drama productions are given to that charity.
I think that gives a good overview!!
Ayo
However there is a case for them to answer. Are they really charities, what does Westminister School do for the community?
Private school do quite a lot, actually. My school is nothing like Eton and the likes, but it is the best mixed school in London. There are lots of charities in which everyone participates (some of my classmates would get £100 a week in pocket money, so why not?) Every holiday, Christmas concert, competition, lottery, championship gets thousands of pounds for various charities, and any student can organise a fund collection for a cause (my friend from Pakistan organised a collection of funds after the earthquake in Pakistan, and collected just under £2000 pounds).
I do believe however to be given the chance to mix with people from a variety of backgrounds (racial and social) and having to work really hard when you get really bad teachers is part of the comprehensive life and can be an advantage to us. Even though some pupils get discouraged by some schools which offers poor standards of teaching, many can become encouraged and motivated to strive for the best.
I think you overestimate pupil's ability to break the circle and go against the flow. Whilst 10 pupils in a comprehensive school might be willing to do their best inspite of everything (like some people who replied to this thread - respect for you), another 30 will have missed out on the ability to achive better results and become more intellectual because they weren't in a suitable enviroment. Private schools are very competitive, with some 50% applying to Oxbridge in my school and most of students aiming at 4 As at Alevel - this does do wonders as individuals strive to achieve and be recognised in the mass of very bright students. This competitiveness plays the same role as going against the flow and proving yourself in a state school (part of your argument)
tanusha-tomsk
I think you overestimate pupil's ability to break the circle and go against the flow. Whilst 10 pupils in a comprehensive school might be willing to do their best inspite of everything (like some people who replied to this thread - respect for you), another 30 will have missed out on the ability to achive better results and become more intellectual because they weren't in a suitable enviroment. Private schools are very competitive, with some 50% applying to Oxbridge in my school and most of students aiming at 4 As at Alevel - this does do wonders as individuals strive to achieve and be recognised in the mass of very bright students. This competitiveness plays the same role as going against the flow and proving yourself in a state school (part of your argument)
I think you overestimate pupil's ability to break the circle and go against the flow. Whilst 10 pupils in a comprehensive school might be willing to do their best inspite of everything (like some people who replied to this thread - respect for you), another 30 will have missed out on the ability to achive better results and become more intellectual because they weren't in a suitable enviroment. Private schools are very competitive, with some 50% applying to Oxbridge in my school and most of students aiming at 4 As at Alevel - this does do wonders as individuals strive to achieve and be recognised in the mass of very bright students. This competitiveness plays the same role as going against the flow and proving yourself in a state school (part of your argument)
True, but are you saying that there isn't any competitiveness in state schools? There are many intelligent people in my 6th form and also people who attended my secondary school and there was healthy competition between us to achieve the best and that aspect of state schools I feel can be seriously underestimated. Of course private schools are perceived to contain many more pupils of a high academic standard and there are many people who are more or less on the same par but state schools gives those who perhaps come from a underpriviledged background and struggle academically to reach their potential however there is still an environment for 'gifted' pupils to thrive.
kizer
Out of sheer pride, I have to challenge this. What school are you talking about?
Bancrofts, rated no.20 in London in the league tables 2005/2006, the first 19 places are the single sex grammar schools. Why, what school do you go to?
kizer
Well they have loads of applicants for every job, and they pick the one they think will be best. If they aren't good, they get fired. Process repeats. Simple really.
No, not always true. Partly because some brilliant teachers prefer to work in the state sector to make a difference, or because they oppose the private school system. Not all teachers in my private school are top class, whereas many teachers in my state school are.
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