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Alexey
Lol, Johan, you've done a lot of reading there
I would like to further your point on philosophy. The person who is defending philosophy is using an argument that can easily be applied to any subject, which is a waste of time. This argument needs to be split in to three sections: (i)Quant skills (ii)Analytical skills (iii)Interpersonal skills and I shall briefly expand on the two sectors necessary for banking.
(i)Quantitative skills are necessary for jobs in trading, sales, IB although to a different extent in all of them. They are not picked up in an arts degree, such as philosophy, and are not developed. As many people will notice, quant skill need constant development and practice. They require a totally different mindset - one that is more analytical and full of rigour. It is a mindsets that is creative through looking at the most efficient way to set out a problem and then solve it. Philosophical logic can not achieve that - it is much more a method of proving something you want through anything. It is not rigorous to the extent mathematics is.
(ii)Analytical skills are developed equally well by quant degrees as by art degrees although once again in a different form. This is why there are such things as mathematical analysis, abstract mathematics and the like. Quants are taught to reason as I mentioned above - they look for the most efficient solutions, and most efficient ways of setting out a problem. Philosophical skills try to set out a problem in such a way that it can be solved to obtain a particular result - however this can be equally well achieved by a quant.
(iii)People claim that Arts degrees develop a persons social ability better. I fail to see how. You read more, but a quant degree can be complemented by reading, whereas a degree in the arts is much more difficult to complement with mathematics. Social skills, in addition are something that is developed by a persons social surrounding and the persons nurture - not so much on his degree. Arts students will be able to say things such as the fact that they know the literature better, they are thus able to argue better - however how often are such skills really necessary - not often. An mathematician can construct an equally logical argument and and equally good relationship.
Furthermore, what has been mentioned is that a person who does an arts degree will be able to pick up the maths skills in two months. The other person will not be wasting those two months - he will be training and gaining experience - they are already at a loss. The likelyhood of getting to the same level in two month is very low in any circumstance, since the person who's just learnt the skills will have much less practice - there will still be ample room for improvement, there will be things that the person has just not seen over those two months. The quant will have a much broader experience.
Anyway, this is not an argument, these are some thoughts which perhaps may help to see some part of the valid foundation of the stronger base which quants will have over artists.
I would like to further your point on philosophy. The person who is defending philosophy is using an argument that can easily be applied to any subject, which is a waste of time. This argument needs to be split in to three sections: (i)Quant skills (ii)Analytical skills (iii)Interpersonal skills and I shall briefly expand on the two sectors necessary for banking.(i)Quantitative skills are necessary for jobs in trading, sales, IB although to a different extent in all of them. They are not picked up in an arts degree, such as philosophy, and are not developed. As many people will notice, quant skill need constant development and practice. They require a totally different mindset - one that is more analytical and full of rigour. It is a mindsets that is creative through looking at the most efficient way to set out a problem and then solve it. Philosophical logic can not achieve that - it is much more a method of proving something you want through anything. It is not rigorous to the extent mathematics is.
(ii)Analytical skills are developed equally well by quant degrees as by art degrees although once again in a different form. This is why there are such things as mathematical analysis, abstract mathematics and the like. Quants are taught to reason as I mentioned above - they look for the most efficient solutions, and most efficient ways of setting out a problem. Philosophical skills try to set out a problem in such a way that it can be solved to obtain a particular result - however this can be equally well achieved by a quant.
(iii)People claim that Arts degrees develop a persons social ability better. I fail to see how. You read more, but a quant degree can be complemented by reading, whereas a degree in the arts is much more difficult to complement with mathematics. Social skills, in addition are something that is developed by a persons social surrounding and the persons nurture - not so much on his degree. Arts students will be able to say things such as the fact that they know the literature better, they are thus able to argue better - however how often are such skills really necessary - not often. An mathematician can construct an equally logical argument and and equally good relationship.
Furthermore, what has been mentioned is that a person who does an arts degree will be able to pick up the maths skills in two months. The other person will not be wasting those two months - he will be training and gaining experience - they are already at a loss. The likelyhood of getting to the same level in two month is very low in any circumstance, since the person who's just learnt the skills will have much less practice - there will still be ample room for improvement, there will be things that the person has just not seen over those two months. The quant will have a much broader experience.
Anyway, this is not an argument, these are some thoughts which perhaps may help to see some part of the valid foundation of the stronger base which quants will have over artists.
Exactly.
Johan C
Hey Ben.
Having been here for nearly a year now (well, reading the forums anyway) I see just what you mean, having listened to advice from far more enlightened and clued-up posters such as CT, MC and you. So yes, your comment is mostly correct. But now you guys are mostly gone, isn't it time to accept the "new generation" - which is admittedly full of **** and of which I don't consider myself a part, but is new nonetheless ?
Having been here for nearly a year now (well, reading the forums anyway) I see just what you mean, having listened to advice from far more enlightened and clued-up posters such as CT, MC and you. So yes, your comment is mostly correct. But now you guys are mostly gone, isn't it time to accept the "new generation" - which is admittedly full of **** and of which I don't consider myself a part, but is new nonetheless ?
Thank U for understanding US. Being an Asian student, I found it difficult to know about UK generally and IB individually. But I really want to work in IB. So I don't mind if somebody say to me: You are **** or whatever. I am patient enough to learn from anyone.
Alexey
(iii)Interpersonal skills: People claim that Arts degrees develop a persons social ability better. I fail to see how. You read more, but a quant degree can be complemented by reading, whereas a degree in the arts is much more difficult to complement with mathematics. Social skills, in addition are something that is developed by a persons social surrounding and the persons nurture - not so much on his degree. Arts students will be able to say things such as the fact that they know the literature better, they are thus able to argue better - however how often are such skills really necessary - not often. An mathematician can construct an equally logical argument and and equally good relationship.
(iii)Interpersonal skills: People claim that Arts degrees develop a persons social ability better. I fail to see how. You read more, but a quant degree can be complemented by reading, whereas a degree in the arts is much more difficult to complement with mathematics. Social skills, in addition are something that is developed by a persons social surrounding and the persons nurture - not so much on his degree. Arts students will be able to say things such as the fact that they know the literature better, they are thus able to argue better - however how often are such skills really necessary - not often. An mathematician can construct an equally logical argument and and equally good relationship.
Your whole post is really useful for a beginner like me. I started to read some stuffs about IB and other relevant fields. I also asked two expert in the field, my father and his colleague and they did answer something like that. Since I don't want to ask him for further help and want do it on my own, I hope to learn from somewhere else.
Nonetheless, my father don't know much about the British university because he lives & works in an Asian country. So can anyone help me to answer my previous question? According to the reference (iii) metioned by Alexey, which one should I go to, Cass (Investment & Riskc Financial management) or Bath (Acc & Finance), City or Bath uni, London or Bath? I MEAN THE ENVIRONMENT AND OPPORTUNITY
Alexey makes some reasonable points but would probably be the first to admit that his analysis is weakened by extreme personal bias.
He's quite correct in saying social skills need not be the sole preserve of Arts students, but - perhaps due to signalling - it's clear that certain quantitative subjects do attract a certain demographic, who are on average probably less well equipped for social interaction than their Arts counterparts. (In just the same way that said Arts students are in general probably less well equipped for other things, such as 'quant skills'.)
It's 100% correct that basic math is important for IB, but the stuff I've seen in regular S&T (not quant) roles hasn't been demanding: quick and accurate mental arithmatic required; ability to understand and explain models required and so on. I think it's no more than A-level math standard and decent Arts students, realistically aiming for IB, should already have this in the exact same way that decent Science students, realistically aiming for IB, should have good social skills.
Although slightly reductive, it boils down to this: successful applicants need to be mathematically competent AND have good social skills. If you are arguing that under these criteria more Science students would be eligible than Arts students, that's probably correct. However, I don't believe that an individual Arts student who possesses both skills would be disadvantaged for most roles - provided that they can demonstrate their mathematical competency and an interest in finance in their application.
It's also worth developing Alexey's point about Arts and Science students' different approaches vis-a-vis analysis. It is beneficial to any organisation to have multiple ways of thinking amongst its staff and diversity of academic background ensures this.
It would be really informative to see a breakdown of apps : offers for the Arts/Science divide.
He's quite correct in saying social skills need not be the sole preserve of Arts students, but - perhaps due to signalling - it's clear that certain quantitative subjects do attract a certain demographic, who are on average probably less well equipped for social interaction than their Arts counterparts. (In just the same way that said Arts students are in general probably less well equipped for other things, such as 'quant skills'.)
It's 100% correct that basic math is important for IB, but the stuff I've seen in regular S&T (not quant) roles hasn't been demanding: quick and accurate mental arithmatic required; ability to understand and explain models required and so on. I think it's no more than A-level math standard and decent Arts students, realistically aiming for IB, should already have this in the exact same way that decent Science students, realistically aiming for IB, should have good social skills.
Although slightly reductive, it boils down to this: successful applicants need to be mathematically competent AND have good social skills. If you are arguing that under these criteria more Science students would be eligible than Arts students, that's probably correct. However, I don't believe that an individual Arts student who possesses both skills would be disadvantaged for most roles - provided that they can demonstrate their mathematical competency and an interest in finance in their application.
It's also worth developing Alexey's point about Arts and Science students' different approaches vis-a-vis analysis. It is beneficial to any organisation to have multiple ways of thinking amongst its staff and diversity of academic background ensures this.
It would be really informative to see a breakdown of apps : offers for the Arts/Science divide.
fuglyduckling
Alexey makes some reasonable points but would probably be the first to admit that his analysis is weakened by extreme personal bias.
He's quite correct in saying social skills need not be the sole preserve of Arts students, but - perhaps due to signalling - it's clear that certain quantitative subjects do attract a certain demographic, who are on average probably less well equipped for social interaction than their Arts counterparts. (In just the same way that said Arts students are in general probably less well equipped for other things, such as 'quant skills'.)
.
He's quite correct in saying social skills need not be the sole preserve of Arts students, but - perhaps due to signalling - it's clear that certain quantitative subjects do attract a certain demographic, who are on average probably less well equipped for social interaction than their Arts counterparts. (In just the same way that said Arts students are in general probably less well equipped for other things, such as 'quant skills'.)
.
I do not think science attracts a certain demographic who are socially 'inept' - or atleast relative to arts students. It is because science degrees are generally harder and require more hours input in terms of work so they are more likely to attract the people who would tend to work more. The way I see it, it's a fairly simple relationship. Either way, I think most Arts students overestimate their social ability (see Shady Lane's post history).
MonteCristo
I do not think science attracts a certain demographic who are socially 'inept' - or atleast relative to arts students.
It's impossible to prove either way, in fairness.
I'd certainly avoid using the word 'inept' but - based on personal experience only - I'd argue that as a group Arts students are better equipped with social skills than Science students; without a doubt they tend to be more articulate and skilled in discourse, but I also find them to be more gregarious in general. Just my $0.02.
fuglyduckling
It's impossible to prove either way, in fairness.
I'd certainly avoid using the word 'inept' but - based on personal experience only - I'd argue that as a group Arts students are better equipped with social skills than Science students; without a doubt they tend to be more articulate and skilled in discourse, but I also find them to be more gregarious in general. Just my $0.02.
I'd certainly avoid using the word 'inept' but - based on personal experience only - I'd argue that as a group Arts students are better equipped with social skills than Science students; without a doubt they tend to be more articulate and skilled in discourse, but I also find them to be more gregarious in general. Just my $0.02.
Yes i agree with this, but remember this is IB, not a court of law. Communication skills are whats relevant, not how well you can articulate an argument. Hence because of this i feel quant grads are in know way disadvantaged to arts grads, when it comes to social skills. Where the difference comes is from the mathematical side. Apart from trading/quant roles you are not likely going to need maths beyond a-level (at most first year introductory maths course), but thats not the point. The point is science/maths grads come with a different mindset to arts grads, one which is more suited to IB. Science/maths grads are more logical and rational in their approach to problems, and since a lot of the work in IB uses technical analysis, it is quite clear that science/maths grads are more suited.
samiminh
Thank U for understanding US. Being an Asian student, I found it difficult to know about UK generally and IB individually. But I really want to work in IB. So I don't mind if somebody say to me: You are **** or whatever. I am patient enough to learn from anyone.
Excellent mindset !
samiminh
So can anyone help me to answer my previous question? According to the reference (iii) metioned by Alexey, which one should I go to, Cass (Investment & Riskc Financial management) or Bath (Acc & Finance), City or Bath uni, London or Bath? I MEAN THE ENVIRONMENT AND OPPORTUNITY
Hmm, I'm not sure I can help you on this one for lack of knowledge of both unis.
I'd go for CASS personally
Drop out, change your degree, apply to CASM (Part 3 Maths) at Trinity, and you might have a chance.
Old post but why would one of the most competitive maths courses in the world accept an arts student? My brother got a first in Physics at Oxford to get onto CASM.
I guess you've worked out things for yourself by now.
Science students views on employability are hilarious. The only jobs that need CASM level maths are in academia or working for NASA (etc.). Even the maths accountants use is barely harder than GCSE.
Science students views on employability are hilarious. The only jobs that need CASM level maths are in academia or working for NASA (etc.). Even the maths accountants use is barely harder than GCSE.
PrinceOfCats
I guess you've worked out things for yourself by now.
Science students views on employability are hilarious. The only jobs that need CASM level maths are in academia or working for NASA (etc.). Even the maths accountants use is barely harder than GCSE.
Science students views on employability are hilarious. The only jobs that need CASM level maths are in academia or working for NASA (etc.). Even the maths accountants use is barely harder than GCSE.
Well not quite but I have years to do so fortunately.
PrinceOfCats
Even the maths accountants use is barely harder than GCSE.
Easier than GCSE.
President_Ben
Easier than GCSE.
WAYYYYYY easier and incredibly BORING!
PrinceOfCats
I guess you've worked out things for yourself by now.
Science students views on employability are hilarious.
Science students views on employability are hilarious.
Arts students' views on their social ability are even more hilarous. You have Shady Lane here who thinks her essay on some political issue or other is going to pull her all the boys at Embassy on Friday night.
The only jobs that need CASM level maths are in academia or working for NASA (etc.). Even the maths accountants use is barely harder than GCSE.
Well banks regularly hire traders and quants from Part III - if any decides research isn't for them that is. Even the course directors are aware that top quality grads are now coming to do Part III because they will most certainly get snapped up by banks into a top trading or junior quant role, hence why on the website they continually stress that you should not apply for it unless you are seriously considering research.
MonteCristo
Arts students' views on their social ability are even more hilarous. You have Shady Lane here who thinks her essay on some political issue or other is going to pull her all the boys at Embassy on Friday night.
well tbh if i had to choose, id rather spend the night talking about politics/history rather than quantum physics and engineering
abrp
well tbh if i had to choose, id rather spend the night talking about politics/history rather than quantum physics and engineering
I find quantum physics works wonders with the ladies...not that I've ever used Shrodinger's Cat in a pick up line..
Engineering is terribly boring, why would anyone want to talk about that?99% of discussions in Physics or Mathematics degenerate to the person with more education and experience saying "no, you're wrong because of ....".
Unfortunately, there is no room for personal opinion or discussion in the face of experiments and theorems.
Unfortunately, there is no room for personal opinion or discussion in the face of experiments and theorems.
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