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Original post by mariachi
Why are There no Jaïn terrorists ? Perhaps, because the religion is actually peaceful ?


Yes exactly.
There are about 1.6 billion muslims in the world , 20% of them are terrorists. The majority of the muslim population are average people with different beliefs. To say that ALL muslims are responsible is like saying white people are responsible for donald trump boming syria. Most of the population of muslims dont actually agree with isis or the act of terrorism as it is against there religion. This post is slightly racist but its your opion so who am i to judge x
Original post by YesItsMe56563
There are about 1.6 billion muslims in the world , 20% of them are terrorists. The majority of the muslim population are average people with different beliefs. To say that ALL muslims are responsible is like saying white people are responsible for donald trump boming syria. Most of the population of muslims dont actually agree with isis or the act of terrorism as it is against there religion. This post is slightly racist but its your opion so who am i to judge x


It's considerably less than 20% that are terrorists. The 20% figure you're referring to is the conservative estimate of Muslims with an extreme Islamist ideology.

And that's the thing to remember, extremism isn't binary. It's not either you're a terrorist or a good person. There is the tiny minority of actual terrorists. There is the minority though still vast in numbers group of extreme Islamists.

Then you have normal Muslims of varying degrees of conservativism, and finally a minority of progressive or liberal Muslims. And this is where valid concerns over Islam as an ideology are still debated. That majority of conservative Muslims who thankfully oppose violence, but still hold views that would concern your average secular person on women's rights, homosexuals or speaking out against a fellow Muslim they know to be doing wrong.

They aren't bad people, but they are locked into an ideology that guides them in views that are unacceptable.
Islam is peace-loving and peace between people of good will invite people to apply. The terrorists want to destroy the image of Islam
Original post by YesItsMe56563
There are about 1.6 billion muslims in the world , 20% of them are terrorists. The majority of the muslim population are average people with different beliefs. To say that ALL muslims are responsible is like saying white people are responsible for donald trump boming syria. Most of the population of muslims dont actually agree with isis or the act of terrorism as it is against there religion. This post is slightly racist but its your opion so who am i to judge x


Hm, you are just wrong though and need to look at the facts/surveys.

The dominant denominations of Islam are ultra conservative and although not all of those people might not blow themselves up, any one following those denominations of Islam will support terrorism along with suppression of women, executions etc.

Also if 20% are terrorists, that is a HUGE amount and equals 320 MILLION terrorists ready to go. That is a world ending problem.
Original post by samzy21
I don't think it is fair because the ones behind the attacks aren't Muslims, they are terrorists


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Terrorists who happen to be Muslim.
Original post by Plantagenet Crown
Only a bigot would say all Muslims are to blame for Islamic terrorist attacks, they're clearly not. But the problem with your post is that the definition of who a true Muslim is is subjective. In like manner, ISIS may accuse many Western Muslims of being apostates and will say that they themselves are the true Muslims.


But you see, the definition of a true Muslim is not subjective, it is defined by the Qur'an and Sunnah, not by the countless factions that have arisen to create strife and mislead those Muslims who are ignorant or too lazy to bother about their religion. ISIS has no right to call themselves true Muslims, because they are the absolute, disgusting opposite to Islam and its teachings. I'm sure it would be stupid if a car company like BMW started pretending they are a phone company just because their new models have communication systems. But rather the Western media chooses to report what makes money, and generates views, which is understandable from a business perspective but ethically, is that remotely right?
I would press the issue more, but my exam revision should take priority over a debate, I just felt compelled to say something to defend my religion.
Yes.
Original post by Sitrus_
But you see, the definition of a true Muslim is not subjective, it is defined by the Qur'an and Sunnah, not by the countless factions that have arisen to create strife and mislead those Muslims who are ignorant or too lazy to bother about their religion. ISIS has no right to call themselves true Muslims, because they are the absolute, disgusting opposite to Islam and its teachings. I'm sure it would be stupid if a car company like BMW started pretending they are a phone company just because their new models have communication systems. But rather the Western media chooses to report what makes money, and generates views, which is understandable from a business perspective but ethically, is that remotely right?
I would press the issue more, but my exam revision should take priority over a debate, I just felt compelled to say something to defend my religion.


And what are Isis doing that Mohammed didn't?
Original post by Sitrus_
But you see, the definition of a true Muslim is not subjective, it is defined by the Qur'an and Sunnah, not by the countless factions that have arisen to create strife and mislead those Muslims who are ignorant or too lazy to bother about their religion. ISIS has no right to call themselves true Muslims, because they are the absolute, disgusting opposite to Islam and its teachings. I'm sure it would be stupid if a car company like BMW started pretending they are a phone company just because their new models have communication systems. But rather the Western media chooses to report what makes money, and generates views, which is understandable from a business perspective but ethically, is that remotely right?
I would press the issue more, but my exam revision should take priority over a debate, I just felt compelled to say something to defend my religion.


It's pretty obvious there's no one, all-encompassing definition of what a Muslim is, otherwise there wouldn't be countless number of sects. Muslims haven't been able to agree on 100% of what it means since the time of Muhammad!

However, there are a few basic things which pretty much all of them can agree on: that Allah is God, Muhammad is his last messenger and that the Quran is the unchangeable, timeless and perfect guilde for humanity. ISIS believe all of these things so there are no convincing grounds whatsoever to accuse them of not being Muslim.

Most, if not all of what ISIS do can be found in the Quran and sunnah and committing heinous acts does not take you out of the fold of Islam. As far as I'm aware the only sin that constitutes apostasy is shirk.
(edited 6 years ago)
Original post by Tictackilla
Im tired of people blaming their problems on a special group of people. If its terrorists its muslim problem, if its something else its the migrants, other things it might be christians. You need to realise only sick people do this kind of stuff.


and yet its OK to blame people in a positive manner. Like saying "New Zealanders always cost us the rugby world cup!" Well you cant have you're cake and eat mine aswell.
When the central book of Islam has verses such as:
"I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them." - qur'an 8:12

and when its central prophet said things like:
'Allah's Apostle said... 'I have been made victorious with terror'.' - Sahih Bukhari 52:220

"It is not for a Prophet that he should have prisoners of war until he had made a great slaughter in the land." - qur'an 8:67

"Killing Unbelievers is a small matter to us." - Tabari 9:69

"And kill them wherever you find them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out. And Al-Fitnah [disbelief or unrest] is worse than killing... but if they desist, then lo! Allah is forgiving and merciful. And fight them until there is no more Fitnah [disbelief and worshipping of others along with Allah] and worship is for Allah alone." - qur'an 2:191-193

"And when We wish to destroy a town, We send Our commandment to the people of it who lead easy lives, but they transgress therein; thus the word proves true against it, so We destroy it with utter destruction." - qur'an 17:16

It is nonsense to say that Islam is a religion of peace and that it does not support terrorist acts. If you call yourself a Muslim, it is your duty to renounce the qur'an and the actions of Muhammad.
Original post by Plantagenet Crown
It's pretty obvious there's no one, all-encompassing definition of what a Muslim is, otherwise there wouldn't be countless number of sects. Muslims haven't been able to agree on 100% of what it means since the time of Muhammad!

However, there are a few basic things which pretty much all of them can agree on: that Allah is God, Muhammad is his last messenger and that the Quran is the unchangeable, timeless and perfect guide for humanity. ISIS believe all of these things so there are no convincing grounds whatsoever to accuse them of not being Muslim.

Most, if not all of what ISIS do can be found in the Quran and sunnah and committing heinous acts does not take you out of the fold of Islam. As far as I'm aware the only sin that constitutes apostasy is shirk.


Oh come on, don't show your ignorance, you could have just not responded and kept face.
There are many things other than shirk which constitute apostasy, for example the denial of verses of the Qur'an and the denial of what Muslim scholars have come to a consensus upon, such as stating that prayer is completely unnecessary. ISIS have violated every rule there is about war in Islam, which are so strict that even the trees of an invaded land are not to be harmed. And jihaad in a military sense is not up to any pathetically uneducated and brainwashed idiot to decide upon, there needs to be a proper consensus and a cause, such as retaliation to oppression.
As I said, these countless sects of Islam were created out of spite and desire to cause mischief, and are all false except one, those whop adhere to the teachings of Qur'an and the Sunnah. I am of course speaking about sects that claim to be Muslim like the Shia or Sufi, but have altered the religion so much that it does not resemble the original but in name.
Also, I really think you need to understand this simple, fundamental concept that to ISIS, Islam is a FRONT that they are using to create strife and discord. If the world really wanted to snuff them out they would be gone. Do not even try to tell me that 'there are no convincing grounds whatsoever to accuse them of not being Muslim', because there is all the convincing ground to do so.
Please, like I said, save face and do not spout nonsense :smile:
Original post by BigYoSpeck
And what are Isis doing that Mohammed didn't?


I'll keep it short. I don't recall Mohammed terrorisng the world on a mass scale and using disgusting tactics just for fear-mongering. Let me as a question: And what research have you done on the matter?
Original post by Sitrus_
Oh come on, don't show your ignorance, you could have just not responded and kept face.
There are many things other than shirk which constitute apostasy, for example the denial of verses of the Qur'an and the denial of what Muslim scholars have come to a consensus upon, such as stating that prayer is completely unnecessary. ISIS have violated every rule there is about war in Islam, which are so strict that even the trees of an invaded land are not to be harmed. And jihaad in a military sense is not up to any pathetically uneducated and brainwashed idiot to decide upon, there needs to be a proper consensus and a cause, such as retaliation to oppression.
As I said, these countless sects of Islam were created out of spite and desire to cause mischief, and are all false except one, those whop adhere to the teachings of Qur'an and the Sunnah. I am of course speaking about sects that claim to be Muslim like the Shia or Sufi, but have altered the religion so much that it does not resemble the original but in name.
Also, I really think you need to understand this simple, fundamental concept that to ISIS, Islam is a FRONT that they are using to create strife and discord. If the world really wanted to snuff them out they would be gone. Do not even try to tell me that 'there are no convincing grounds whatsoever to accuse them of not being Muslim', because there is all the convincing ground to do so.
Please, like I said, save face and do not spout nonsense :smile:


This isn't about saving face, it's about refuting the absurd denial that ISIS aren't Muslims when it's obvious they are. They believe in the Quran's infallibility, Allah and Muhammad as his messengers, ergo they are Muslims. Just because their interpretation is much more radical and extreme than yours does not make them any less Muslim. Incidentally they will say exactly the same about you: that you're not a real Muslim and that their interpretation is correct.

Their newspaper Dabiq is packed full of Quranic verses so it's obvious they believe in all of this stuff and they outline the reasons why they hate and attack the West and most of those reasons are directly religious. It's ridiculous to imply that they're atheists or whatever and only using Islam as a front. First of all, the burden of proof is on YOU to back up that ridiculous assertion and secondly, you might like to ask yourself WHY someone would use specifically Islam to facilitate acts of violence and terror. Why not Hinduism? Or Sikhism? Or Jainism? Why is is Islam time and time and time again?

You're just spouting the old and tired No true Scotsman fallacy which simply won't wash I'm afraid. And it's counterproductive because we can't truly solve the problem until we admit that there's a serious issue with Islamic ideology. Burying your hand in the sand each time an attack like this happens and screaming "nothing whatsoever to do with Islam" is extremely unhelpful as well as a lie.

And btw, debate is a two-way street. You can't quote someone and demand that they don't respond.
(edited 6 years ago)
Original post by Sitrus_
I'll keep it short. I don't recall Mohammed terrorisng the world on a mass scale and using disgusting tactics just for fear-mongering. Let me as a question: And what research have you done on the matter?


Death for apostasy, I'd call that a terror tactic.

How about his tactics in Medina? Beheading the entire tribes adult males and selling the women and children into slavery.

Those aren't disgusting tactics?
Original post by Sitrus_
I'll keep it short. I don't recall Mohammed terrorisng the world on a mass scale and using disgusting tactics just for fear-mongering. Let me as a question: And what research have you done on the matter?


"Kill them wherever you find them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out. And Al-Fitnah [disbelief or unrest] is worse than killing... but if they desist, then lo! Allah is forgiving and merciful. And fight them until there is no more Fitnah [disbelief and worshipping of others along with Allah] and worship is for Allah alone. But if they cease, let there be no transgression except against Az-Zalimun(the polytheists, and wrong-doers, etc.)." - qur'an 2:191-193

"Be not weak hearted in pursuit of the enemy; if you suffer pain, then surely they (too) suffer pain as you suffer pain." - qur'an 4:104

"The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His messenger and strive to make mischief in the land is only this, that they should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides or they should be imprisoned; this shall be as a disgrace for them in this world, and in the hereafter they shall have a grievous chastisement." - qur'an 5:33

"I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them." - qur'an 8:12

"Let not those who disbelieve suppose that they can outstrip (Allah's Purpose). Lo! they cannot escape. Make ready for them all thou canst of (armed) force and of horses tethered, that thereby ye may dismay the enemy of Allah and your enemy." - qur'an 8:59-60

"It is not for a Prophet that he should have prisoners of war until he had made a great slaughter in the land." - qur'an 8:67

"When the sacred months have passed away, then slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captive and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush, then if they repent and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, leave their way free to them." - qur'an 9:5

"Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued." - qur'an 9:29

"March forth, whether you are light (being healthy, young and wealthy) or heavy (being ill, old and poor), strive hard with your wealth and your lives in the Cause of Allah. This is better for you, if you but knew. Had it been a near gain (booty in front of them) and an easy journey, they would have followed you, but the distance (Tabuk expedition) was long for them, and they would swear by Allah, "If we only could, we would certainly have come forth with you." - qur'an 9:41-42

"Allah hath purchased of the believers their persons and their goods; for theirs (in return) is the garden (of Paradise): they fight in His cause, and slay and are slain." - qur'an 9:111

"And when We wish to destroy a town, We send Our commandment to the people of it who lead easy lives, but they transgress therein; thus the word proves true against it, so We destroy it with utter destruction." - qur'an 17:16

"Those who disbelieve follow falsehood, while those who believe follow the truth from their Lord... So, when you meet (in fight Jihad in Allah's Cause), those who disbelieve smite at their necks till when you have killed and wounded many of them, then bind a bond firmly (on them, i.e. take them as captives)... If it had been Allah's Will, He Himself could certainly have punished them (without you). But (He lets you fight), in order to test you, some with others. But those who are killed in the Way of Allah, He will never let their deeds be lost." - qur'an 47:3-4

"Muhammad is the messenger of Allah. And those with him are hard (ruthless) against the disbelievers and merciful among themselves." - qur'an 48:29

'Allah's Apostle said, "The Hour will not be established until you fight with the Jews, and the stone behind which a Jew will be hiding will say. "O Muslim! There is a Jew hiding behind me, so kill him."' - Sahih Bukhari 52:177

'Allah's Apostle said... 'I have been made victorious with terror'.' - Sahih Bukhari 52:220

'The Messenger of Allah said: I have been commanded to fight against people till they testify that there is no god but Allah, that Muhammad is the messenger of Allah.' - Sahih Muslim 1:33

"Allah's Apostle said, 'Know that Paradise is under the shades of swords'." - Sahih Bukhari 52:73

'[Muhammad said:] "I decided to order a man to lead the prayer and then take a flame to burn all those, who had not left their houses for the prayer, burning them alive inside their homes."' - Sahih Bukhari 11:626

"Fight against those who disbelieve in Allah. Make a holy war... When you meet your enemies who are polytheists, invite them to three courses of action. If they respond to any one of these, you also accept it and withhold yourself from doing them any harm. Invite them to (accept) Islam; if they respond to you, accept it from them and desist from fighting against them... If they refuse to accept Islam, demand from them the Jizya. If they agree to pay, accept it from them and hold off your hands. If they refuse to pay the tax, seek Allah's help and fight them." - Sahih Muslim 19:4294

"Killing Unbelievers is a small matter to us. (Muhammad)" - Tabari 9:69

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