May's deal with the EU
Poll
Do you agree with the initial deal struck between the UK and the EU?
So it's a deal (apparently) - everything is lovely and we are moving on to trade talks!
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2017/dec/08/brexit-border-eu-theresa-may-juncker-tusk-markets-live
Supposedly, there will be no hard border between NI and Ireland and no difficulties for Ireland continuing to trade with the UK.
It's hard to see how this works in practise. Ireland will need to retain full regulatory alignment with the EU. It sounds as if the first time the EU object to something that Ireland wants to do with the UK's separate regulatory framework that differs, the deal will collapse.
May's government are using smoke and mirrors to disguise this. The alternative is that they are de-facto agreeing to continued full regulatory alignment with the EU, which is a sort of Single Market by stealth. The hardline Brexiteers won't like this one little bit (Farage has already condemned it), but a slight chink of light showing through the curtains is that the Tories may simply have adopted realism and that despite all their rants about leaving the Customs Union and the Single Market, we are going to end up staying in them.
Anyway, today's so-called breakthrough will turn into yet another confused mess unless we do remain at minimum in the Customs Union. Ireland cannot trade across an open border with the UK without that. To suggest otherwise is a lie. Business people know this, which is why they have also stated today that they are continuing to plan moves to the EU.
We are living through one of the very stupidist things that Britain has ever done. In the middle of this mess, Theresa May (you have to feel sorry for her) has the impossible job of attempting to reconcile reality with the madcap lust of her Brexiteering MPs, most of them wealthy white men with investments in disaster-driven hedge funds and the like.
Eventually, reality will break through.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2017/dec/08/brexit-border-eu-theresa-may-juncker-tusk-markets-live
Supposedly, there will be no hard border between NI and Ireland and no difficulties for Ireland continuing to trade with the UK.
It's hard to see how this works in practise. Ireland will need to retain full regulatory alignment with the EU. It sounds as if the first time the EU object to something that Ireland wants to do with the UK's separate regulatory framework that differs, the deal will collapse.
May's government are using smoke and mirrors to disguise this. The alternative is that they are de-facto agreeing to continued full regulatory alignment with the EU, which is a sort of Single Market by stealth. The hardline Brexiteers won't like this one little bit (Farage has already condemned it), but a slight chink of light showing through the curtains is that the Tories may simply have adopted realism and that despite all their rants about leaving the Customs Union and the Single Market, we are going to end up staying in them.
Anyway, today's so-called breakthrough will turn into yet another confused mess unless we do remain at minimum in the Customs Union. Ireland cannot trade across an open border with the UK without that. To suggest otherwise is a lie. Business people know this, which is why they have also stated today that they are continuing to plan moves to the EU.
We are living through one of the very stupidist things that Britain has ever done. In the middle of this mess, Theresa May (you have to feel sorry for her) has the impossible job of attempting to reconcile reality with the madcap lust of her Brexiteering MPs, most of them wealthy white men with investments in disaster-driven hedge funds and the like.
Eventually, reality will break through.
Scroll to see replies
Is todays brexit deal a betrayal of the brexit vote?
Original post by niteninja1
Is todays brexit deal a betrayal of the brexit vote?
The vote was for a blank canvas(everyone had their own individual reasons of course) so there's nothing to betray.
Original post by JamesN88
The vote was for a blank canvas(everyone had their own individual reasons of course) so there's nothing to betray.
The fact the government didn't bother to ask a more specific question doesnt exactly give them the right to run rough shod over the leaving process...
The Canada model would be disastrous for a large slice of UK industry and commerce that is deeply interlocked with EU supply chains. It would result in food shortages amongst other dire effects.
Original post by JamesN88
The vote was for a blank canvas(everyone had their own individual reasons of course) so there's nothing to betray.
There was a touch of the mystic about it all. "Let's just declare that everything's fine. Oh great. Everything's fine then."
I think this will unravel as time goes on, since it is entirely unviable for there to be no hard border unless the UK is going to commit to total regulatory alignment, EU-speak for the Single Market with no say in what that consists of. Can't see that going down well with the Tory headbangers.
I voted for Brexit and this is not acceptable.
Paying £50bn was one thing however regulatory alignment (and potential oversight by the ECJ) means that we are subject to foreign jurisdiction. I have much less faith now that she will bring us out of CAP, the CFP and the common commercial tariff.
Paying £50bn was one thing however regulatory alignment (and potential oversight by the ECJ) means that we are subject to foreign jurisdiction. I have much less faith now that she will bring us out of CAP, the CFP and the common commercial tariff.
Original post by Rakas21
I voted for Brexit and this is not acceptable.
Paying £50bn was one thing however regulatory alignment (and potential oversight by the ECJ) means that we are subject to foreign jurisdiction. I have much less faith now that she will bring us out of CAP, the CFP and the common commercial tariff.
Paying £50bn was one thing however regulatory alignment (and potential oversight by the ECJ) means that we are subject to foreign jurisdiction. I have much less faith now that she will bring us out of CAP, the CFP and the common commercial tariff.
Note the sweetening of the money pill down to "£35 - 39bn" this morning - suddenly, miraculously, the EU finds the bill was not as high as their earlier £100bn estimate! In any event, the money thing is a farce, as the B of E can simply issue bonds to cover it to itself. Fantasy money basically.
On regulatory alignment, the figure of 2 years has also suddenly become 8 years! The court jurisdiction is supposedly consultative, but I can't see their Supreme Lordships ditching 45 years of EU legislation suddenly.
Original post by niteninja1
Is todays brexit deal a betrayal of the brexit vote?
Personally I don't think it is, because the referendum never stipulated what type of Brexit to have. The ardent Brexiteers keep going around saying it meant leaving the Single Market, etc, but that was never voted on. The decision was to leave the EU, but there's an awful lot of detail around that, which is what is being negotiated.
However, I think increasingly the blow-hards and die-hards of the National Brexisist British Workers Party (Bazis for short) will very soon regard what's happening as betrayal, since it seems clear that despite all their denials, we will end up keeping some version of the Customs Union, the Single Market and the European Courts.
Original post by Napp
The fact the government didn't bother to ask a more specific question doesnt exactly give them the right to run rough shod over the leaving process...
How do you define running rough shod though? The majority voted to leave so we’re leaving.
I don’t know what people are on about in here we got what we wanted
Original post by JamesN88
The vote was for a blank canvas(everyone had their own individual reasons of course) so there's nothing to betray.
You don't pay 39 billion for a blank canvas.
Original post by Ganjaweed Rebel
You don't pay 39 billion for a blank canvas.
In this case it looks like you do.
Original post by Ganjaweed Rebel
You don't pay 39 billion for a blank canvas.
No you pay 20 net for two years of eu membership and 15-19 for liabilities over many years.
Original post by JamesN88
How do you define running rough shod though? The majority voted to leave so we’re leaving.
Nobody voted on how, that is my point. May has no remit to extrapolate her own damaging version of Brexit from a one off vote. Not to mention she has already shown herself and her government thoroughly incapable of doing it.
Original post by paul514
I don’t know what people are on about in here we got what we wanted
Who's 'we'?
Original post by paul514
No you pay 20 net for two years of eu membership and 15-19 for liabilities over many years.
I'd prefer a war chest and trade deals with the anglosphere, although having said this I would prefer not to be leaving anyway. When push comes to shove, I'd gladly see an Anglo Samson Option quite frankly.
Original post by Rakas21
I voted for Brexit and this is not acceptable.
Paying £50bn was one thing however regulatory alignment (and potential oversight by the ECJ) means that we are subject to foreign jurisdiction. I have much less faith now that she will bring us out of CAP, the CFP and the common commercial tariff.
Paying £50bn was one thing however regulatory alignment (and potential oversight by the ECJ) means that we are subject to foreign jurisdiction. I have much less faith now that she will bring us out of CAP, the CFP and the common commercial tariff.
Irish border essentially ensures we are staying in some kind of customs union or single market. Especially when all that is stopping an election where a "hard left" labor party has a real chance of winning from happening is the DUP. The DUP are not the lib dems and know how to be a pain in the ass. They will never support any hard border between the NI and the UK as that essentially opens the question of reunification. This then means we are going to be subject to EU rules, yet have zero say in said rules. Well done. *slow hand clap*
The fact the hardcore Brexiters demanded article 50 be triggered immediate, just stuck their heads in the sand with regard to this issue means they only have themselves to blame. There is no plan, and there never has been, other than blind faith in the Brexit ideology. On the 100th anniversary of then Russian Revolution is is the Brexit supporting right wing that is carrying on the spirit of Bolshevism. Have a massive destructive break, and then everything will then somehow work out. Down to earth plans are for traitorous Mensheviks.
(edited 6 years ago)
Original post by Ganjaweed Rebel
I'd prefer a war chest and trade deals with the anglosphere, although having said this I would prefer not to be leaving anyway. When push comes to shove, I'd gladly see an Anglo Samson Option quite frankly.
Trade deals with the Anglosphere could replace anything up to 10% of the trade we would lose with the EU. What do you propose to do about the remaining 90%?
Not to mention how will you deal with a situation where millions and millions of British citizens can no longer easily go on holiday to Spain, buy affordable olives and hummus and wine in the shops, or get their grandparents nursed in hospitals?
Perhaps you can forward their complaints to Nigel Farage at his substantial property in Brussels. He will have time on his hands as he is keeping his EU pension, paid for by us.
Original post by ChaoticButterfly
Irish border essentially ensures we are staying in some kind of customs union or single market. Especially when all that is stopping an election where a "hard left" labor party has a real chance of winning from happening is the DUP. The DUP are not the lib dems and know how to be a pain in the ass. They will never support any hard border between the NI and the UK as that essentially open the question of reunification. This then means we are going to be subject to EU rules, yet have zero say in said rules. Well done. *slow hand clap*
The fact the hardcore Brexiters just stuck their heads in the sand with regard to this issue means they only have themselves to blame.
The fact the hardcore Brexiters just stuck their heads in the sand with regard to this issue means they only have themselves to blame.
Well said.
One of the strange things about the DUP is that although they are Brexiteers, they form a perfect barrier to hard Brexit policies.
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