[Official Thread] Russian invasion of Ukraine

I can understand why they're reacting the way they are. It's a preemptive attack on Russia's part against NATO expansion. If the whole of Europe has joined NATO, then that alienates Russia even more than they already have been. An expansionist international regime is a threat somewhere down the line. It's very obvious that Russia loses power if they lose their neighbouring countries; it would pose a direct threat at their borders.

The idea that the relationship between Switzerland and NATO is anywhere near comparable to the relationship between Russia and NATO is ludicrous, and you know this.

Russia could just... not invade Ukraine though, right? Dare I say it, Russia could actually try to cooporate more with it's Western neighbours or even join NATO itself if it was really so fearful of being attacked.

I'm well aware that Switzerland, Sweden, etc, have a different relationship with NATO than Russia. This isn't the point. The point is that if NATO expansion is a good justification for invading countries, then why shouldn't Switzerland, Sweden, etc, also start invading countries? Clearly Russia and NATO have a much worse relationship, but it's absurd to suggest that NATO poses an actual danger to Russia (either now or later down the line) in the same way it's absurd to suggest that NATO poses a actual danger to Switzerland, Sweden, etc.

Russia could just... not invade Ukraine though, right? Dare I say it, Russia could actually try to cooporate more with it's Western neighbours or even join NATO itself if it was really so fearful of being attacked.

I'm well aware that Switzerland, Sweden, etc, have a different relationship with NATO than Russia. This isn't the point. The point is that if NATO expansion is a good justification for invading countries, then why shouldn't Switzerland, Sweden, etc, also start invading countries?

Clearly Russia and NATO have a much worse relationship, but it's absurd to suggest that NATO poses an actual danger to Russia (either now or later down the line) in the same way it's absurd to suggest that NATO poses a actual danger to Switzerland, Sweden, etc.

I can understand why they're reacting the way they are. It's a preemptive attack on Russia's part against NATO expansion. If the whole of Europe has joined NATO, then that alienates Russia even more than they already have been. An expansionist international regime is a threat somewhere down the line. It's very obvious that Russia loses power if they lose their neighbouring countries; it would pose a direct threat at their borders.

But that's the thing, what NATO stands for is in direct opposition to Russia's culture. Sooner or later, Russia will be expected to adopt NATO's cultural values. That's just a matter of fact.

You can't ask this question without taking the country's relationship with NATO into account. Switzerland has no reason to fear NATO in the same way Russia does.

Switzerland's cultural values are more in-line with what NATO stands for. NATO very well considers Russia's treatment of LGBT people to be a human rights violation. It will inevitably come to NATO trying to impose western attitudes onto other countries.

As horrible as this is, the idea that NATO didn't see this coming is just bizarre to me. I don't blame Russia for reacting.

NATO very well considers Russia's treatment of LGBT people to be a human rights violation. It will inevitably come to NATO trying to impose western attitudes onto other countries.

So are you saying that Russia's fear of NATO is justified because NATO support LGBT rights and Russia doesn't? That's pretty far fetched, and honestly an awful reason to be paranoid of NATO.

NATO clearly aren't going to invade Russia because Russia isn't as friendly to the LGBT community as, say, Switzerland or Sweden is. You can't claim that "sooner or later" Russia will be expected to adopt NATOs cultural values either. Even if we assume they will, how is this justification for an invasion? Are LGBT rights, or lack thereof, seriously so important that it's worth invading a neighbouring country, killing dozens of people, displacing thousands and wasting billions?

There's no justification for this invasion.

Because it is.
Countries are entitled to their culture but harming other people is not cultural.
The persecution of other humans or things like mutilation (such as FGM) should never be tolerated regardless of culture.

It is concerning that you would defend Russia simply because you are opposed to the LGBT community.

It's a culmination of things dating back to the Cold War. The LGBT thing is just one example.



Yes, the current western view is that other countries should adopt our values.

Whether NATO will invade Russia or not, the expansion to the East would make an invasion very, very easy. Russia can't afford to take the view that "NATO will never invade us". There is always a possibility of this happening, and if it did then it would be too late for Russia because they didn't act preemptively. The more I think about this, the more I think Russia would have been idiots to not invade Ukraine.



Russia has to inductively reason that an invasion from NATO is possible. As a result, their options are very limited.

It's hard to justify an invasion on Ukraine, because it's based on a specific set of observations and expectations which someone in the west can plausibly deny as crazy conspiracy theorizing.

So the invasion of Ukraine is justified because NATO might invade Russia in the far flung future?

That's not a good justification, it's a weak one. Should Russia invade other non-NATO parts of Europe, like Finland and Sweden, for the same reason?

If that's their reason for doing it, which I think is evident, then I believe so.

I'm not a Russian tactician.

It's a culmination of things dating back to the Cold War. The LGBT thing is just one example.



Yes, the current western view is that other countries should adopt our values.

Whether NATO will invade Russia or not, the expansion to the East would make an invasion very, very easy. Russia can't afford to take the view that "NATO will never invade us". There is always a possibility of this happening, and if it did then it would be too late for Russia because they didn't act preemptively. The more I think about this, the more I think Russia would have been idiots to not invade Ukraine.



Russia has to inductively reason that an invasion from NATO is possible. As a result, their options are very limited.

It's hard to justify an invasion on Ukraine, because it's based on a specific set of observations and expectations which someone in the west can plausibly deny as crazy conspiracy theorizing.

If you think the invasion of Ukraine is justified as a pre-emptive strike against NATO expansion... then surely you must think that an invasion of Sweden and Finland must also be justified?

Not at all. Ukraine is a very different country to Sweden. They differ in their relationship to Russia, their geographical positioning, etc. There's so many different variables that you'd have to take into account to make that assessment.