How difficult is it to secure a city training contract in a prestigious law firm?
Hi, I’m beginning my study of law at the University of Warwick next academic year and have always set my future goals relatively high. I hope to graduate with a training contract offer at a top law firm (ideally a US firm with a London office).
From what I can gather, open days, virtual internships and hopefully vacation schemes will all improve my chances of an offer, but realistically speaking, how attainable is a high end training contract (or any corporate training contract for that matter) ?
Is a training contract at a firm like Latham and Watkins or Kirkland and Ellis a realistic goal, or should I look into more realistic ambitions such as smaller, lower paying firms?
From what I can gather, open days, virtual internships and hopefully vacation schemes will all improve my chances of an offer, but realistically speaking, how attainable is a high end training contract (or any corporate training contract for that matter) ?
Is a training contract at a firm like Latham and Watkins or Kirkland and Ellis a realistic goal, or should I look into more realistic ambitions such as smaller, lower paying firms?
(edited 8 months ago)
Scroll to see replies
You’ve not started first year yet and you’re worrying about not getting into top firms. Just focus on being a capable law student this early in your study, it’s a massive jump from first to third year and beyond, things can change along the way - you may feel law is not for you and choose to do something else. It’s way to early to be worrying about what comes next. I didn’t even want to practice law particularly but enjoyed the challenge and was interested in the subject which still propelled me to getting a first. I had no particular goal to practice let alone at a top firm. Focusing on grasping and enjoying the subject material should be first and foremost in the mind of any new law student.
Virtual internships, vacation schemes etc will be great on any application to an employer and you should be encouraged to do them.
Also I’m not sure that a TC post LPC may even be the best or even a viable option for you. The LPC is being phased out and replaced with the SQE, of which most new LLBs are geared to prepare undergrads for. You should check whether your course does this. This may be a better option for you as the TCs become less available.
I don’t want to come off as dismissive but I’m trying to say don’t worry just yet about what comes next, “life plans” often change in my experience and you’ll have plenty of time to consider your options later in your studies.
Virtual internships, vacation schemes etc will be great on any application to an employer and you should be encouraged to do them.
Also I’m not sure that a TC post LPC may even be the best or even a viable option for you. The LPC is being phased out and replaced with the SQE, of which most new LLBs are geared to prepare undergrads for. You should check whether your course does this. This may be a better option for you as the TCs become less available.
I don’t want to come off as dismissive but I’m trying to say don’t worry just yet about what comes next, “life plans” often change in my experience and you’ll have plenty of time to consider your options later in your studies.
LLBhaver - I'm going to slightly disagree with you here. Agreed on ensuring the OP enjoys and gets stuck into his degree and that lots can change between now and third year etc... but uni is *also* the time to be filling out that CV with all the good stuff that law firms are looking for - irrespective of whether that's US, MC, wider city, national/regional etc... Those years roll by very quickly and thinking about life plans now (even if they change) has value.
Eddie - I'd encourage you to think about why you're interested in the firms your interested in? Why US for example over MC or other UK city firms? What are the differences? the advantages? the drawbacks?... What does corporate or banking work actually consist of at this practices? (it is very different to what most of consider "law" is). Also note there's not really a strict law firm "hierarchy of difficulty/prestige" with US firms at the top, then the rest of London, then the regions etc... They'll be strong candidates applying to all sorts of practices, competition can be just as tough in the regions for example because of the much smaller numbers of corporate/commercial TCs available.
Aiming for a TC is achievable at a large city practice for you, there's always a little bit of luck involved in exactly where you might land a contract (a friend applied to many city firms and received an offer from Herbert Smith and nowhere else). Generally speaking to have a good chance against the competition you'll want:
1) - A good 2.1 degree, a 1st can be helpful but is not a requirement apart from maybe some of the stuffier US firms. Warwick's a great uni that more than ticks the "well known/academic uni" box.
2) - Strong A levels (typically AAB or better) - assuming to get into Warwick for law you have that ticked already.
3) - Vac schemes and open days. Apply, apply, apply to as many as you can, they are competitive to and it's a bit of a numbers game. Have a couple of vacation schemes, the more the merrier, at similar(ish) practices to what you are targeting is very important.
4) - Other legal work experience - this is where you can really make a start now and try and lock in some solid work experience during your first year holidays. It can be whatever you can get your hands on, are there any small solicitors offices local to you where you could shadow for a week? Do any of your friends and family work in an office with a in-house legal department you could shadow?
5) - Something else interesting on CV to help you stand out and flesh you out as a person, a sport, a hobby, doesn't matter exactly what it is - but something.
All of this will stand you in very good stead for success at a variety of firms. The work exp/vac scheme side of things is really important, academics alone arn't enough on their own.
Eddie - I'd encourage you to think about why you're interested in the firms your interested in? Why US for example over MC or other UK city firms? What are the differences? the advantages? the drawbacks?... What does corporate or banking work actually consist of at this practices? (it is very different to what most of consider "law" is). Also note there's not really a strict law firm "hierarchy of difficulty/prestige" with US firms at the top, then the rest of London, then the regions etc... They'll be strong candidates applying to all sorts of practices, competition can be just as tough in the regions for example because of the much smaller numbers of corporate/commercial TCs available.
Aiming for a TC is achievable at a large city practice for you, there's always a little bit of luck involved in exactly where you might land a contract (a friend applied to many city firms and received an offer from Herbert Smith and nowhere else). Generally speaking to have a good chance against the competition you'll want:
1) - A good 2.1 degree, a 1st can be helpful but is not a requirement apart from maybe some of the stuffier US firms. Warwick's a great uni that more than ticks the "well known/academic uni" box.
2) - Strong A levels (typically AAB or better) - assuming to get into Warwick for law you have that ticked already.
3) - Vac schemes and open days. Apply, apply, apply to as many as you can, they are competitive to and it's a bit of a numbers game. Have a couple of vacation schemes, the more the merrier, at similar(ish) practices to what you are targeting is very important.
4) - Other legal work experience - this is where you can really make a start now and try and lock in some solid work experience during your first year holidays. It can be whatever you can get your hands on, are there any small solicitors offices local to you where you could shadow for a week? Do any of your friends and family work in an office with a in-house legal department you could shadow?
5) - Something else interesting on CV to help you stand out and flesh you out as a person, a sport, a hobby, doesn't matter exactly what it is - but something.
All of this will stand you in very good stead for success at a variety of firms. The work exp/vac scheme side of things is really important, academics alone arn't enough on their own.
(edited 8 months ago)
Never said he shouldn’t be updating CV/filling with extracurriculars/work exp etc, in fact I encouraged it. Rather fretting about specific magic circle firms when you’re effectively still an A-level student is unnecessary.
Just do the best you can including getting the work experience etc. You’ll have a better idea on what’s possible for you and what you want to do later in your studies specifically around third year.
Just do the best you can including getting the work experience etc. You’ll have a better idea on what’s possible for you and what you want to do later in your studies specifically around third year.
Original post by AMac86
LLBhaver - I'm going to slightly disagree with you here. Agreed on ensuring the OP enjoys and gets stuck into his degree and that lots can change between now and third year etc... but uni is *also* the time to be filling out that CV with all the good stuff that law firms are looking for - irrespective of whether that's US, MC, wider city, national/regional etc... Those years roll by very quickly and thinking about life plans now (even if they change) has value.
Eddie - I'd encourage you to think about why you're interested in the firms your interested in? Why US for example over MC or other UK city firms? What are the differences? the advantages? the drawbacks?... What does corporate or banking work actually consist of at this practices? (it is very different to what most of consider "law" is). Also note there's not really a strict law firm "hierarchy of difficulty/prestige" with US firms at the top, then the rest of London, then the regions etc... They'll be strong candidates applying to all sorts of practices, competition can be just as tough in the regions for example because of the much smaller numbers of corporate/commercial TCs available.
Aiming for a TC is achievable at a large city practice for you, there's always a little bit of luck involved in exactly where you might land a contract (a friend applied to many city firms and received an offer from Herbert Smith and nowhere else). Generally speaking to have a good chance against the competition you'll want:
1) - A good 2.1 degree, a 1st can be helpful but is not a requirement apart from maybe some of the stuffier US firms. Warwick's a great uni that more than ticks the "well known/academic uni" box.
2) - Strong A levels (typically AAB or better) - assuming to get into Warwick for law you have that ticked already.
3) - Vac schemes and open days. Apply, apply, apply to as many as you can, they are competitive to and it's a bit of a numbers game. Have a couple of vacation schemes, the more the merrier, at similar(ish) practices to what you are targeting is very important.
4) - Other legal work experience - this is where you can really make a start now and try and lock in some solid work experience during your first year holidays. It can be whatever you can get your hands on, are there any small solicitors offices local to you where you could shadow for a week? Do any of your friends and family work in an office with a in-house legal department you could shadow?
5) - Something else interesting on CV to help you stand out and flesh you out as a person, a sport, a hobby, doesn't matter exactly what it is - but something.
All of this will stand you in very good stead for success at a variety of firms. The work exp/vac scheme side of things is really important, academics alone arn't enough on their own.
Eddie - I'd encourage you to think about why you're interested in the firms your interested in? Why US for example over MC or other UK city firms? What are the differences? the advantages? the drawbacks?... What does corporate or banking work actually consist of at this practices? (it is very different to what most of consider "law" is). Also note there's not really a strict law firm "hierarchy of difficulty/prestige" with US firms at the top, then the rest of London, then the regions etc... They'll be strong candidates applying to all sorts of practices, competition can be just as tough in the regions for example because of the much smaller numbers of corporate/commercial TCs available.
Aiming for a TC is achievable at a large city practice for you, there's always a little bit of luck involved in exactly where you might land a contract (a friend applied to many city firms and received an offer from Herbert Smith and nowhere else). Generally speaking to have a good chance against the competition you'll want:
1) - A good 2.1 degree, a 1st can be helpful but is not a requirement apart from maybe some of the stuffier US firms. Warwick's a great uni that more than ticks the "well known/academic uni" box.
2) - Strong A levels (typically AAB or better) - assuming to get into Warwick for law you have that ticked already.
3) - Vac schemes and open days. Apply, apply, apply to as many as you can, they are competitive to and it's a bit of a numbers game. Have a couple of vacation schemes, the more the merrier, at similar(ish) practices to what you are targeting is very important.
4) - Other legal work experience - this is where you can really make a start now and try and lock in some solid work experience during your first year holidays. It can be whatever you can get your hands on, are there any small solicitors offices local to you where you could shadow for a week? Do any of your friends and family work in an office with a in-house legal department you could shadow?
5) - Something else interesting on CV to help you stand out and flesh you out as a person, a sport, a hobby, doesn't matter exactly what it is - but something.
All of this will stand you in very good stead for success at a variety of firms. The work exp/vac scheme side of things is really important, academics alone arn't enough on their own.
Thanks for your detailed response.
Whilst I understand where “LLBHaver” is coming from with the idea that my plans etc may change, I have had my focus set on law for years now and just wanted to see if I can prepare any better than I am doing so already. Applications are increasingly more competitive and I believe first year is a great time to start considering applications (especially considering many firms now offer “first year schemes”).
I think I prefer US firms mainly because I have always dreamed of eventually moving to the US as well as other factors such as generally smaller teams meaning broader training in my 2 years PQ work experience.
Other than the “New York” culture imported into US firms London offices, and other factors I listed earlier, do you know of any other major differences in US firms compared to international/MC/SC firms?
Original post by LLBhaver
You’ve not started first year yet and you’re worrying about not getting into top firms. Just focus on being a capable law student this early in your study, it’s a massive jump from first to third year and beyond, things can change along the way - you may feel law is not for you and choose to do something else. It’s way to early to be worrying about what comes next. I didn’t even want to practice law particularly but enjoyed the challenge and was interested in the subject which still propelled me to getting a first. I had no particular goal to practice let alone at a top firm. Focusing on grasping and enjoying the subject material should be first and foremost in the mind of any new law student.
Virtual internships, vacation schemes etc will be great on any application to an employer and you should be encouraged to do them.
Also I’m not sure that a TC post LPC may even be the best or even a viable option for you. The LPC is being phased out and replaced with the SQE, of which most new LLBs are geared to prepare undergrads for. You should check whether your course does this. This may be a better option for you as the TCs become less available.
I don’t want to come off as dismissive but I’m trying to say don’t worry just yet about what comes next, “life plans” often change in my experience and you’ll have plenty of time to consider your options later in your studies.
Virtual internships, vacation schemes etc will be great on any application to an employer and you should be encouraged to do them.
Also I’m not sure that a TC post LPC may even be the best or even a viable option for you. The LPC is being phased out and replaced with the SQE, of which most new LLBs are geared to prepare undergrads for. You should check whether your course does this. This may be a better option for you as the TCs become less available.
I don’t want to come off as dismissive but I’m trying to say don’t worry just yet about what comes next, “life plans” often change in my experience and you’ll have plenty of time to consider your options later in your studies.
thank you for your response, it’s reassuring to know that it’s not vital to know exactly which firm I should want to apply for by now.
I understand in first year university is primarily about enjoying yourself and getting to know your course, however with many firms now offering first year schemes and vacation schemes in second year as well as TC applications in second year I feel it would be advantageous to conduct some preliminary research into which firms I’d like to aim for so I can start completing virtual internships and open days etc, targeted at those firms.
In relation to your point about training contracts, that is very true. The future about qualification under the new “SQE” route seems to still be unknown. Many big firms are sticking with the traditional 2 years postgrad experience which Is why I called them training contracts although that technically isn’t the new term.
It’s realistically attainable, like others have mentioned, if you have strong academic grades, are ‘commercially aware’, and can perform well in psychometric assessments and interviews, then it’s within your reach but you’re competing with others and that’s what makes it difficult. I got into a Clifford Chance assessment centre but failed the assessment centre (goes to show how competitive it is)!
Original post by LegalTom
It’s realistically attainable, like others have mentioned, if you have strong academic grades, are ‘commercially aware’, and can perform well in psychometric assessments and interviews, then it’s within your reach but you’re competing with others and that’s what makes it difficult. I got into a Clifford Chance assessment centre but failed the assessment centre (goes to show how competitive it is)!
Congrats on getting that far, from what I’ve heard assessment centres are pretty tough.
Did you end up landing a TC at any other firms ?
Original post by Eddiecooper
Congrats on getting that far, from what I’ve heard assessment centres are pretty tough.
Did you end up landing a TC at any other firms ?
Did you end up landing a TC at any other firms ?
I currently have an assessment invite to the Government Legal Department for a trainee position, after a gruesome application process, so I’m about to get a TC, soon. I think the GLD offers variety and I prefer that.
Original post by Eddiecooper
Thanks for your detailed response.
Whilst I understand where “LLBHaver” is coming from with the idea that my plans etc may change, I have had my focus set on law for years now and just wanted to see if I can prepare any better than I am doing so already. Applications are increasingly more competitive and I believe first year is a great time to start considering applications (especially considering many firms now offer “first year schemes”).
I think I prefer US firms mainly because I have always dreamed of eventually moving to the US as well as other factors such as generally smaller teams meaning broader training in my 2 years PQ work experience.
Other than the “New York” culture imported into US firms London offices, and other factors I listed earlier, do you know of any other major differences in US firms compared to international/MC/SC firms?
Whilst I understand where “LLBHaver” is coming from with the idea that my plans etc may change, I have had my focus set on law for years now and just wanted to see if I can prepare any better than I am doing so already. Applications are increasingly more competitive and I believe first year is a great time to start considering applications (especially considering many firms now offer “first year schemes”).
I think I prefer US firms mainly because I have always dreamed of eventually moving to the US as well as other factors such as generally smaller teams meaning broader training in my 2 years PQ work experience.
Other than the “New York” culture imported into US firms London offices, and other factors I listed earlier, do you know of any other major differences in US firms compared to international/MC/SC firms?
Re other differences - obviously with the caveat that no two firms are exactly the same, your mileage may vary, culture in individuals departments will differ etc...
Expectations will be high at all - that means long hours and a culture of getting stuck in. It's fair to say the US outfits do tend to have the worst working hours and availability expectations - that's the trade-off for the very high pay.
The US firms generally run leaner outfits full stop - that means more concentration of work and seat opportunities in core corporate and finance departments. Smaller teams can mean more responsibility and exposure (but not necessarily breadth) very early on, a sink or swim environment. Equally that means less colleagues and fellow trainees to help each other out.
Overseas secondment opportunities are usually slightly better at the MC/SC by virtue of you being based in head office at the centre of the network.
Original post by Eddiecooper
Thanks for your detailed response.
Whilst I understand where “LLBHaver” is coming from with the idea that my plans etc may change, I have had my focus set on law for years now and just wanted to see if I can prepare any better than I am doing so already. Applications are increasingly more competitive and I believe first year is a great time to start considering applications (especially considering many firms now offer “first year schemes”).
I think I prefer US firms mainly because I have always dreamed of eventually moving to the US as well as other factors such as generally smaller teams meaning broader training in my 2 years PQ work experience.
Other than the “New York” culture imported into US firms London offices, and other factors I listed earlier, do you know of any other major differences in US firms compared to international/MC/SC firms?
Whilst I understand where “LLBHaver” is coming from with the idea that my plans etc may change, I have had my focus set on law for years now and just wanted to see if I can prepare any better than I am doing so already. Applications are increasingly more competitive and I believe first year is a great time to start considering applications (especially considering many firms now offer “first year schemes”).
I think I prefer US firms mainly because I have always dreamed of eventually moving to the US as well as other factors such as generally smaller teams meaning broader training in my 2 years PQ work experience.
Other than the “New York” culture imported into US firms London offices, and other factors I listed earlier, do you know of any other major differences in US firms compared to international/MC/SC firms?
I think you should really consider AMac’s reply. I’d strongly urge you to do your homework before you try to hone in on any particular firm, and that applies especially to US firms. Most get drawn by the salary but don’t actually realise what the work/culture is like. It can be brutal on your mental health if you’re stuck working 16 hour days including weekends. I’ve seen plenty of trainees and lawyers tap out after a few years as the hours are too much, and they really can be bad.
As to moving to the US, it’s not very common to find people who moved from US firms in London to their HQ counterparts in the US. As AMac said, you’ll find better opportunities of that kind in MC/SC firms.
If you want a smaller team, there are also plenty of other firms who work in small teams and aren’t as demanding as the US outfits.
Original post by sublime-baths
I think you should really consider AMac’s reply. I’d strongly urge you to do your homework before you try to hone in on any particular firm, and that applies especially to US firms. Most get drawn by the salary but don’t actually realise what the work/culture is like. It can be brutal on your mental health if you’re stuck working 16 hour days including weekends. I’ve seen plenty of trainees and lawyers tap out after a few years as the hours are too much, and they really can be bad.
As to moving to the US, it’s not very common to find people who moved from US firms in London to their HQ counterparts in the US. As AMac said, you’ll find better opportunities of that kind in MC/SC firms.
If you want a smaller team, there are also plenty of other firms who work in small teams and aren’t as demanding as the US outfits.
As to moving to the US, it’s not very common to find people who moved from US firms in London to their HQ counterparts in the US. As AMac said, you’ll find better opportunities of that kind in MC/SC firms.
If you want a smaller team, there are also plenty of other firms who work in small teams and aren’t as demanding as the US outfits.
That seems sensible, I have only done minor research Into each type of firm so far so yours and AMac’s replies have been really useful. It’s Good to know other firms accept only small numbers of trainees as that’s quite important to me.
Travel of some form like secondments appeals to me so perhaps an MC/SC or global firm is more suited.
i do like the idea of a “sink or swim” type environment as I believe it could work well with my approach to work and ultimately help me become a better lawyer.
Who knows, surely once I have some experience in any city firm I won’t find it too difficult to switch to another?
Eddie - no problem & happy to help.
Many city firms will be a bit sink or swim to some degree, but the US firms have more of a reputation for it. If you're keen on secondments it's the large London city practices that provide the best opportunities.
Getting the training contract is the hardest step, once qualified it is *much* easier to move around, particularly at the 1-4 year PQE ("post qualification experience") mark. So if you trained at lets say CMS and qualified into corporate, it would be relatively straightforward to move into a corporate team at other city firms (including US/MC etc...), and many city lawyers do just that.
Sublime's post above is very accurate on what that US law firm culture can (and usually is) like, city law firm life has demanding hours anywhere and it's always difficult to say what an average day is like, but the really high paying US firms pay you that money for a reason - and that reason is the expectation that you'll work very very hard, bill lots of hours and that work always comes first. This typically means finishing up somewhere between 9pm and 11pm on a typical day, later when its busy (which will be often), and plenty of weekend working, cancelling holidays and plans as needed to get the work done.
To put that into context what can "US hours" look like?
You're in your financing seat at a Kirkland or a Lathams, It's been a busy week at work, getting home after 11pm each night and then up and back into the office for 9am. It's Friday and you're looking forward to an overdue catch up with friends later that evening before going to see your parents for the weekend for a family birthday.
At 3pm in the afternoon an associate comes over to your desk, a new transaction has come in - you need to join a call at 5pm with the client and deal team. You join the call, it all sounds very hectic and you're not quite sure whats going on. Afterwards the associate tells you the bad news - "it's urgent and the client needs first draft documents prepared for 9am Monday morning, cancel any plans you had - we're going to be working the whole weekend."
You're set your tasks, there's a lot to be done and you get started (dropping your friends and family apologetic texts) you leave the office around 2am pretty tired.
Up early Saturday morning and online for 8am, you've been set an internal deadline by the associate to have everything ready for them to review on Sunday afternoon, you work the whole day, emails flying around until around midnight when you're able to log off. Sunday starts earlier - up and online at 7am to finish off the document drafting and you get them ready for the associate to review that afternoon. Whilst they're reviewing you catch up on some email filing and some other work you're being chased on for another transaction.
The associate drops the documents back to you at 8pm and sounds a bit annoyed with you "I would have expected these to be better..." they say. There are plenty of changes and some additional documents to prepare arising out of their review, you work through Sunday evening and into the early hours of Monday morning, dropping the updated work back to the associate at 4am. 4 hours sleep and then back into the office on Monday at 9.30am for another busy week of late nights
Now that would be a week on the busier side (although not as busy as it could be - you didn't have to pull any all-nighters!), a "quiet week" would be something along the lines of 9.30am-7/8pm and a couple of hours on Sunday.
Many city firms will be a bit sink or swim to some degree, but the US firms have more of a reputation for it. If you're keen on secondments it's the large London city practices that provide the best opportunities.
Getting the training contract is the hardest step, once qualified it is *much* easier to move around, particularly at the 1-4 year PQE ("post qualification experience") mark. So if you trained at lets say CMS and qualified into corporate, it would be relatively straightforward to move into a corporate team at other city firms (including US/MC etc...), and many city lawyers do just that.
Sublime's post above is very accurate on what that US law firm culture can (and usually is) like, city law firm life has demanding hours anywhere and it's always difficult to say what an average day is like, but the really high paying US firms pay you that money for a reason - and that reason is the expectation that you'll work very very hard, bill lots of hours and that work always comes first. This typically means finishing up somewhere between 9pm and 11pm on a typical day, later when its busy (which will be often), and plenty of weekend working, cancelling holidays and plans as needed to get the work done.
To put that into context what can "US hours" look like?
You're in your financing seat at a Kirkland or a Lathams, It's been a busy week at work, getting home after 11pm each night and then up and back into the office for 9am. It's Friday and you're looking forward to an overdue catch up with friends later that evening before going to see your parents for the weekend for a family birthday.
At 3pm in the afternoon an associate comes over to your desk, a new transaction has come in - you need to join a call at 5pm with the client and deal team. You join the call, it all sounds very hectic and you're not quite sure whats going on. Afterwards the associate tells you the bad news - "it's urgent and the client needs first draft documents prepared for 9am Monday morning, cancel any plans you had - we're going to be working the whole weekend."
You're set your tasks, there's a lot to be done and you get started (dropping your friends and family apologetic texts) you leave the office around 2am pretty tired.
Up early Saturday morning and online for 8am, you've been set an internal deadline by the associate to have everything ready for them to review on Sunday afternoon, you work the whole day, emails flying around until around midnight when you're able to log off. Sunday starts earlier - up and online at 7am to finish off the document drafting and you get them ready for the associate to review that afternoon. Whilst they're reviewing you catch up on some email filing and some other work you're being chased on for another transaction.
The associate drops the documents back to you at 8pm and sounds a bit annoyed with you "I would have expected these to be better..." they say. There are plenty of changes and some additional documents to prepare arising out of their review, you work through Sunday evening and into the early hours of Monday morning, dropping the updated work back to the associate at 4am. 4 hours sleep and then back into the office on Monday at 9.30am for another busy week of late nights
Now that would be a week on the busier side (although not as busy as it could be - you didn't have to pull any all-nighters!), a "quiet week" would be something along the lines of 9.30am-7/8pm and a couple of hours on Sunday.
(edited 8 months ago)
Original post by AMac86
Eddie - no problem & happy to help.
Many city firms will be a bit sink or swim to some degree, but the US firms have more of a reputation for it. If you're keen on secondments it's the large London city practices that provide the best opportunities.
Getting the training contract is the hardest step, once qualified it is *much* easier to move around, particularly at the 1-4 year PQE ("post qualification experience") mark. So if you trained at lets say CMS and qualified into corporate, it would be relatively straightforward to move into a corporate team at other city firms (including US/MC etc...), and many city lawyers do just that.
Sublime's post above is very accurate on what that US law firm culture can (and usually is) like, city law firm life has demanding hours anywhere and it's always difficult to say what an average day is like, but the really high paying US firms pay you that money for a reason - and that reason is the expectation that you'll work very very hard, bill lots of hours and that work always comes first. This typically means finishing up somewhere between 9pm and 11pm on a typical day, later when its busy (which will be often), and plenty of weekend working, cancelling holidays and plans as needed to get the work done.
To put that into context what can "US hours" look like?
You're in your financing seat at a Kirkland or a Lathams, It's been a busy week at work, getting home after 11pm each night and then up and back into the office for 9am. It's Friday and you're looking forward to an overdue catch up with friends later that evening before going to see your parents for the weekend for a family birthday.
At 3pm in the afternoon an associate comes over to your desk, a new transaction has come in - you need to join a call at 5pm with the client and deal team. You join the call, it all sounds very hectic and you're not quite sure whats going on. Afterwards the associate tells you the bad news - "it's urgent and the client needs first draft documents prepared for 9am Monday morning, cancel any plans you had - we're going to be working the whole weekend."
You're set your tasks, there's a lot to be done and you get started (dropping your friends and family apologetic texts) you leave the office around 2am pretty tired.
Up early Saturday morning and online for 8am, you've been set an internal deadline by the associate to have everything ready for them to review on Sunday afternoon, you work the whole day, emails flying around until around midnight when you're able to log off. Sunday starts earlier - up and online at 7am to finish off the document drafting and you get them ready for the associate to review that afternoon. Whilst they're reviewing you catch up on some email filing and some other work you're being chased on for another transaction.
The associate drops the documents back to you at 8pm and sounds a bit annoyed with you "I would have expected these to be better..." they say. There are plenty of changes and some additional documents to prepare arising out of their review, you work through Sunday evening and into the early hours of Monday morning, dropping the updated work back to the associate at 4am. 4 hours sleep and then back into the office on Monday at 9.30am for another busy week of late nights
Now that would be a week on the busier side (although not as busy as it could be - you didn't have to pull any all-nighters!), a "quiet week" would be something along the lines of 9.30am-7/8pm and a couple of hours on Sunday.
Many city firms will be a bit sink or swim to some degree, but the US firms have more of a reputation for it. If you're keen on secondments it's the large London city practices that provide the best opportunities.
Getting the training contract is the hardest step, once qualified it is *much* easier to move around, particularly at the 1-4 year PQE ("post qualification experience") mark. So if you trained at lets say CMS and qualified into corporate, it would be relatively straightforward to move into a corporate team at other city firms (including US/MC etc...), and many city lawyers do just that.
Sublime's post above is very accurate on what that US law firm culture can (and usually is) like, city law firm life has demanding hours anywhere and it's always difficult to say what an average day is like, but the really high paying US firms pay you that money for a reason - and that reason is the expectation that you'll work very very hard, bill lots of hours and that work always comes first. This typically means finishing up somewhere between 9pm and 11pm on a typical day, later when its busy (which will be often), and plenty of weekend working, cancelling holidays and plans as needed to get the work done.
To put that into context what can "US hours" look like?
You're in your financing seat at a Kirkland or a Lathams, It's been a busy week at work, getting home after 11pm each night and then up and back into the office for 9am. It's Friday and you're looking forward to an overdue catch up with friends later that evening before going to see your parents for the weekend for a family birthday.
At 3pm in the afternoon an associate comes over to your desk, a new transaction has come in - you need to join a call at 5pm with the client and deal team. You join the call, it all sounds very hectic and you're not quite sure whats going on. Afterwards the associate tells you the bad news - "it's urgent and the client needs first draft documents prepared for 9am Monday morning, cancel any plans you had - we're going to be working the whole weekend."
You're set your tasks, there's a lot to be done and you get started (dropping your friends and family apologetic texts) you leave the office around 2am pretty tired.
Up early Saturday morning and online for 8am, you've been set an internal deadline by the associate to have everything ready for them to review on Sunday afternoon, you work the whole day, emails flying around until around midnight when you're able to log off. Sunday starts earlier - up and online at 7am to finish off the document drafting and you get them ready for the associate to review that afternoon. Whilst they're reviewing you catch up on some email filing and some other work you're being chased on for another transaction.
The associate drops the documents back to you at 8pm and sounds a bit annoyed with you "I would have expected these to be better..." they say. There are plenty of changes and some additional documents to prepare arising out of their review, you work through Sunday evening and into the early hours of Monday morning, dropping the updated work back to the associate at 4am. 4 hours sleep and then back into the office on Monday at 9.30am for another busy week of late nights
Now that would be a week on the busier side (although not as busy as it could be - you didn't have to pull any all-nighters!), a "quiet week" would be something along the lines of 9.30am-7/8pm and a couple of hours on Sunday.
I think this scenario is quite helpful to picture a ‘day in the life’ of a trainee - especially that snark comment on the quality of work after you’d put your blood sweat and tears! I note in particular one week where I worked from 9am - 5am every day, including the weekend. And there have been countless more busy weeks before and after. I’m probably quite lucky though, as it’s not too uncommon for lawyers to do consecutive/multiple all-nighters in a single week!
Original post by Eddiecooper
That seems sensible, I have only done minor research Into each type of firm so far so yours and AMac’s replies have been really useful. It’s Good to know other firms accept only small numbers of trainees as that’s quite important to me.
Travel of some form like secondments appeals to me so perhaps an MC/SC or global firm is more suited.
i do like the idea of a “sink or swim” type environment as I believe it could work well with my approach to work and ultimately help me become a better lawyer.
Who knows, surely once I have some experience in any city firm I won’t find it too difficult to switch to another?
Travel of some form like secondments appeals to me so perhaps an MC/SC or global firm is more suited.
i do like the idea of a “sink or swim” type environment as I believe it could work well with my approach to work and ultimately help me become a better lawyer.
Who knows, surely once I have some experience in any city firm I won’t find it too difficult to switch to another?
I would try to avoid being too picky as well. As AMac points out, there is a real element of luck in landing a TC, but you’ll have more of a chance if you cast your net wide. Just make sure that doesn’t effect the quality of your applications though, it’s a balance.
Original post by AMac86
Eddie - no problem & happy to help.
Many city firms will be a bit sink or swim to some degree, but the US firms have more of a reputation for it. If you're keen on secondments it's the large London city practices that provide the best opportunities.
Getting the training contract is the hardest step, once qualified it is *much* easier to move around, particularly at the 1-4 year PQE ("post qualification experience") mark. So if you trained at lets say CMS and qualified into corporate, it would be relatively straightforward to move into a corporate team at other city firms (including US/MC etc...), and many city lawyers do just that.
Sublime's post above is very accurate on what that US law firm culture can (and usually is) like, city law firm life has demanding hours anywhere and it's always difficult to say what an average day is like, but the really high paying US firms pay you that money for a reason - and that reason is the expectation that you'll work very very hard, bill lots of hours and that work always comes first. This typically means finishing up somewhere between 9pm and 11pm on a typical day, later when its busy (which will be often), and plenty of weekend working, cancelling holidays and plans as needed to get the work done.
To put that into context what can "US hours" look like?
You're in your financing seat at a Kirkland or a Lathams, It's been a busy week at work, getting home after 11pm each night and then up and back into the office for 9am. It's Friday and you're looking forward to an overdue catch up with friends later that evening before going to see your parents for the weekend for a family birthday.
At 3pm in the afternoon an associate comes over to your desk, a new transaction has come in - you need to join a call at 5pm with the client and deal team. You join the call, it all sounds very hectic and you're not quite sure whats going on. Afterwards the associate tells you the bad news - "it's urgent and the client needs first draft documents prepared for 9am Monday morning, cancel any plans you had - we're going to be working the whole weekend."
You're set your tasks, there's a lot to be done and you get started (dropping your friends and family apologetic texts) you leave the office around 2am pretty tired.
Up early Saturday morning and online for 8am, you've been set an internal deadline by the associate to have everything ready for them to review on Sunday afternoon, you work the whole day, emails flying around until around midnight when you're able to log off. Sunday starts earlier - up and online at 7am to finish off the document drafting and you get them ready for the associate to review that afternoon. Whilst they're reviewing you catch up on some email filing and some other work you're being chased on for another transaction.
The associate drops the documents back to you at 8pm and sounds a bit annoyed with you "I would have expected these to be better..." they say. There are plenty of changes and some additional documents to prepare arising out of their review, you work through Sunday evening and into the early hours of Monday morning, dropping the updated work back to the associate at 4am. 4 hours sleep and then back into the office on Monday at 9.30am for another busy week of late nights
Now that would be a week on the busier side (although not as busy as it could be - you didn't have to pull any all-nighters!), a "quiet week" would be something along the lines of 9.30am-7/8pm and a couple of hours on Sunday.
Many city firms will be a bit sink or swim to some degree, but the US firms have more of a reputation for it. If you're keen on secondments it's the large London city practices that provide the best opportunities.
Getting the training contract is the hardest step, once qualified it is *much* easier to move around, particularly at the 1-4 year PQE ("post qualification experience") mark. So if you trained at lets say CMS and qualified into corporate, it would be relatively straightforward to move into a corporate team at other city firms (including US/MC etc...), and many city lawyers do just that.
Sublime's post above is very accurate on what that US law firm culture can (and usually is) like, city law firm life has demanding hours anywhere and it's always difficult to say what an average day is like, but the really high paying US firms pay you that money for a reason - and that reason is the expectation that you'll work very very hard, bill lots of hours and that work always comes first. This typically means finishing up somewhere between 9pm and 11pm on a typical day, later when its busy (which will be often), and plenty of weekend working, cancelling holidays and plans as needed to get the work done.
To put that into context what can "US hours" look like?
You're in your financing seat at a Kirkland or a Lathams, It's been a busy week at work, getting home after 11pm each night and then up and back into the office for 9am. It's Friday and you're looking forward to an overdue catch up with friends later that evening before going to see your parents for the weekend for a family birthday.
At 3pm in the afternoon an associate comes over to your desk, a new transaction has come in - you need to join a call at 5pm with the client and deal team. You join the call, it all sounds very hectic and you're not quite sure whats going on. Afterwards the associate tells you the bad news - "it's urgent and the client needs first draft documents prepared for 9am Monday morning, cancel any plans you had - we're going to be working the whole weekend."
You're set your tasks, there's a lot to be done and you get started (dropping your friends and family apologetic texts) you leave the office around 2am pretty tired.
Up early Saturday morning and online for 8am, you've been set an internal deadline by the associate to have everything ready for them to review on Sunday afternoon, you work the whole day, emails flying around until around midnight when you're able to log off. Sunday starts earlier - up and online at 7am to finish off the document drafting and you get them ready for the associate to review that afternoon. Whilst they're reviewing you catch up on some email filing and some other work you're being chased on for another transaction.
The associate drops the documents back to you at 8pm and sounds a bit annoyed with you "I would have expected these to be better..." they say. There are plenty of changes and some additional documents to prepare arising out of their review, you work through Sunday evening and into the early hours of Monday morning, dropping the updated work back to the associate at 4am. 4 hours sleep and then back into the office on Monday at 9.30am for another busy week of late nights
Now that would be a week on the busier side (although not as busy as it could be - you didn't have to pull any all-nighters!), a "quiet week" would be something along the lines of 9.30am-7/8pm and a couple of hours on Sunday.
Ha! It’s all part of the corporate law life and it’s good to know what I’m getting myself into.
There is something attractive about the long hours and hard work, I guess in the hope of being quite satisfying (briefly) once the work is complete and just before the next deal etc.
I understand this type of work isn’t for everyone but I’d have my eyes set on corporate law for a few years now and have recently been trying to get a really good understanding of what it actually means to be a corporate lawyer, something which you and sublime have helped with. So thanks again.
The responses in this thread have been better and more informative than I had hoped for. The information re the US firms hours and MC secondments is extremely useful and something which cannot be found (in much detail) on other internet resources.
Original post by sublime-baths
I would try to avoid being too picky as well. As AMac points out, there is a real element of luck in landing a TC, but you’ll have more of a chance if you cast your net wide. Just make sure that doesn’t effect the quality of your applications though, it’s a balance.
I will certainly do that. I’ve been told around 15 applications is the sweet spot to avoid dampening the quality of the app but keeping my options wide enough, this may be wrong though.
TC’s are hard to secure even at high street firms so securing one at a top firm is definitely going to be difficult, but I just hope it’s possible. I haven’t met anyone in person yet who gets excited by a job that demands long hours, but maybe I’m just weird!
It helps motivate me to consider the future and consider where I could end up after university, which was one of the reasons for my post. I just hope that the motivation and hard work I have put in and will put in even more so over the coming years will eventually translate into me being a great lawyer - only time will tell.
Thanks again for your responses.
You're welcome! I'm glad I could provide you with helpful information and insights about corporate law. It's great to hear that you've been actively seeking to understand what it means to be a corporate lawyer and that the responses you've received have been informative.
Corporate law can indeed offer a dynamic and rewarding career path for those who are drawn to its challenges and opportunities. The satisfaction that comes from completing complex deals and transactions, as well as the sense of accomplishment, can be quite fulfilling.
It's also important to remember that while the long hours and hard work can be demanding, they can also lead to valuable skills, experiences, and career advancement. Balancing those demands with a passion for the work can lead to a successful and fulfilling career in corporate law.
Corporate law can indeed offer a dynamic and rewarding career path for those who are drawn to its challenges and opportunities. The satisfaction that comes from completing complex deals and transactions, as well as the sense of accomplishment, can be quite fulfilling.
It's also important to remember that while the long hours and hard work can be demanding, they can also lead to valuable skills, experiences, and career advancement. Balancing those demands with a passion for the work can lead to a successful and fulfilling career in corporate law.
Original post by Eddiecooper
Hi, I’m beginning my study of law at the University of Warwick next academic year and have always set my future goals relatively high. I hope to graduate with a training contract offer at a top law firm (ideally a US firm with a London office).
From what I can gather, open days, virtual internships and hopefully vacation schemes will all improve my chances of an offer, but realistically speaking, how attainable is a high end training contract (or any corporate training contract for that matter) ?
Is a training contract at a firm like Latham and Watkins or Kirkland and Ellis a realistic goal, or should I look into more realistic ambitions such as smaller, lower paying firms?
From what I can gather, open days, virtual internships and hopefully vacation schemes will all improve my chances of an offer, but realistically speaking, how attainable is a high end training contract (or any corporate training contract for that matter) ?
Is a training contract at a firm like Latham and Watkins or Kirkland and Ellis a realistic goal, or should I look into more realistic ambitions such as smaller, lower paying firms?
Hey!
I think you should first discover what type of law firm you would like to work for. You mentioned firms such as Latham and Watkins and K&E, if you have an interest in private equity/corporate/capital markets work, then these are some of the best firms for that type of work. At the beginning of your uni life, you should aim for open/insight days with a variety of law firms to discover if you are interested in Magic Circle/Silver Circle/US/National firms. I would also recommend to become more familiar with the work of trainees and how their day-to-day life looks like. Another step is to research some of the firms that you are interested in and see the type of work they do. From my experience, Commercial Law Academy's course "introduction to commercial law" gave me a good insight into what trainees do since tasks such as due diligence, reviewing documents and others were covered in great detail. They also have a great course "law firm profiles and research" with profiles on Magic Circle/Silver Circle/US/National firms.
Original post by AMac86
Eddie - no problem & happy to help.
Many city firms will be a bit sink or swim to some degree, but the US firms have more of a reputation for it. If you're keen on secondments it's the large London city practices that provide the best opportunities.
Getting the training contract is the hardest step, once qualified it is *much* easier to move around, particularly at the 1-4 year PQE ("post qualification experience") mark. So if you trained at lets say CMS and qualified into corporate, it would be relatively straightforward to move into a corporate team at other city firms (including US/MC etc...), and many city lawyers do just that.
Sublime's post above is very accurate on what that US law firm culture can (and usually is) like, city law firm life has demanding hours anywhere and it's always difficult to say what an average day is like, but the really high paying US firms pay you that money for a reason - and that reason is the expectation that you'll work very very hard, bill lots of hours and that work always comes first. This typically means finishing up somewhere between 9pm and 11pm on a typical day, later when its busy (which will be often), and plenty of weekend working, cancelling holidays and plans as needed to get the work done.
To put that into context what can "US hours" look like?
You're in your financing seat at a Kirkland or a Lathams, It's been a busy week at work, getting home after 11pm each night and then up and back into the office for 9am. It's Friday and you're looking forward to an overdue catch up with friends later that evening before going to see your parents for the weekend for a family birthday.
At 3pm in the afternoon an associate comes over to your desk, a new transaction has come in - you need to join a call at 5pm with the client and deal team. You join the call, it all sounds very hectic and you're not quite sure whats going on. Afterwards the associate tells you the bad news - "it's urgent and the client needs first draft documents prepared for 9am Monday morning, cancel any plans you had - we're going to be working the whole weekend."
You're set your tasks, there's a lot to be done and you get started (dropping your friends and family apologetic texts) you leave the office around 2am pretty tired.
Up early Saturday morning and online for 8am, you've been set an internal deadline by the associate to have everything ready for them to review on Sunday afternoon, you work the whole day, emails flying around until around midnight when you're able to log off. Sunday starts earlier - up and online at 7am to finish off the document drafting and you get them ready for the associate to review that afternoon. Whilst they're reviewing you catch up on some email filing and some other work you're being chased on for another transaction.
The associate drops the documents back to you at 8pm and sounds a bit annoyed with you "I would have expected these to be better..." they say. There are plenty of changes and some additional documents to prepare arising out of their review, you work through Sunday evening and into the early hours of Monday morning, dropping the updated work back to the associate at 4am. 4 hours sleep and then back into the office on Monday at 9.30am for another busy week of late nights
Now that would be a week on the busier side (although not as busy as it could be - you didn't have to pull any all-nighters!), a "quiet week" would be something along the lines of 9.30am-7/8pm and a couple of hours on Sunday.
Many city firms will be a bit sink or swim to some degree, but the US firms have more of a reputation for it. If you're keen on secondments it's the large London city practices that provide the best opportunities.
Getting the training contract is the hardest step, once qualified it is *much* easier to move around, particularly at the 1-4 year PQE ("post qualification experience") mark. So if you trained at lets say CMS and qualified into corporate, it would be relatively straightforward to move into a corporate team at other city firms (including US/MC etc...), and many city lawyers do just that.
Sublime's post above is very accurate on what that US law firm culture can (and usually is) like, city law firm life has demanding hours anywhere and it's always difficult to say what an average day is like, but the really high paying US firms pay you that money for a reason - and that reason is the expectation that you'll work very very hard, bill lots of hours and that work always comes first. This typically means finishing up somewhere between 9pm and 11pm on a typical day, later when its busy (which will be often), and plenty of weekend working, cancelling holidays and plans as needed to get the work done.
To put that into context what can "US hours" look like?
You're in your financing seat at a Kirkland or a Lathams, It's been a busy week at work, getting home after 11pm each night and then up and back into the office for 9am. It's Friday and you're looking forward to an overdue catch up with friends later that evening before going to see your parents for the weekend for a family birthday.
At 3pm in the afternoon an associate comes over to your desk, a new transaction has come in - you need to join a call at 5pm with the client and deal team. You join the call, it all sounds very hectic and you're not quite sure whats going on. Afterwards the associate tells you the bad news - "it's urgent and the client needs first draft documents prepared for 9am Monday morning, cancel any plans you had - we're going to be working the whole weekend."
You're set your tasks, there's a lot to be done and you get started (dropping your friends and family apologetic texts) you leave the office around 2am pretty tired.
Up early Saturday morning and online for 8am, you've been set an internal deadline by the associate to have everything ready for them to review on Sunday afternoon, you work the whole day, emails flying around until around midnight when you're able to log off. Sunday starts earlier - up and online at 7am to finish off the document drafting and you get them ready for the associate to review that afternoon. Whilst they're reviewing you catch up on some email filing and some other work you're being chased on for another transaction.
The associate drops the documents back to you at 8pm and sounds a bit annoyed with you "I would have expected these to be better..." they say. There are plenty of changes and some additional documents to prepare arising out of their review, you work through Sunday evening and into the early hours of Monday morning, dropping the updated work back to the associate at 4am. 4 hours sleep and then back into the office on Monday at 9.30am for another busy week of late nights
Now that would be a week on the busier side (although not as busy as it could be - you didn't have to pull any all-nighters!), a "quiet week" would be something along the lines of 9.30am-7/8pm and a couple of hours on Sunday.
That is a very good description and accurate.
Quick Reply
Related discussions
- Training Contract Advice
- Will I still become a lawyer even if I don’t go to a prestigious university ?
- Hidden legal training contracts?
- Bristol vs Edinburgh vs Exeter vs Leeds
- Will Law firms pay for my LLB if I secure a training contract from the second year?
- the best university for studying law
- Please guide me through my dilemma regarding university and courses
- 2.2 with dreams of working at a magic circle law firm
- Will I be eligible to do the LPC?
- Staying in London for university or moving out?
- Studying LLB with Business at Exeter
- City law firm chances?? Need help
- What A LEVEL grades are law firms asking for?
- What are my chances of securing a good legal training contract?
- How to get law training contracts
- skilled worker visa sponsorship as a paralegal
- Starting PGDL at 48....
- CITY, UoL, or SOAS?
- Career Change to Become a Solicitor with a 2.2
- Solicitor v Barrister
Latest
Trending
Last reply 20 hours ago
LAW: How to answer a problem question in Contract LawLast reply 22 hours ago
CPS Pupillage/Legal Trainee Scheme 2024 (2025 Start)Last reply 2 days ago
The Pupillage Interview/Acceptance/Rejection Thread 2024 WatchLast reply 4 days ago
What is better LLM SQE or SQE Preparation Courses - or Training contract?Last reply 1 week ago
What are the chances of getting any job offer with my background?Last reply 2 weeks ago
How necessary is a first in order to become a barrister?Last reply 2 weeks ago
How important is having a duty slot as a criminal barristerLast reply 1 month ago
can i get a job at a top law firm as a barrister with sh*t grades??Trending
Last reply 20 hours ago
LAW: How to answer a problem question in Contract LawLast reply 22 hours ago
CPS Pupillage/Legal Trainee Scheme 2024 (2025 Start)Last reply 2 days ago
The Pupillage Interview/Acceptance/Rejection Thread 2024 WatchLast reply 4 days ago
What is better LLM SQE or SQE Preparation Courses - or Training contract?Last reply 1 week ago
What are the chances of getting any job offer with my background?Last reply 2 weeks ago
How necessary is a first in order to become a barrister?Last reply 2 weeks ago
How important is having a duty slot as a criminal barristerLast reply 1 month ago
can i get a job at a top law firm as a barrister with sh*t grades??
