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Original post by Mesacake
I am currently 16 years old and from an early age have always been greatly engaged in geopolitics and current affairs in the UK, Asia, America, etc; it's always been of immense interest to me. I will split why I support Israel into 2-3 sections, and I would love for people to ask me questions and let me know your viewpoints. I'm not closed off to my point of view like many.

Background

My grandfather, born in 1927 in Iran, was born just after a coup that saw the beginning of a new Imperial dynasty led by Reza Khan, now the Shah of Iran. 19 years later, after the more progressive takeover of his son, Mohammad Reza, he eagerly joined the Imperial Army and became a Private. By about 1970, he managed to rise the ranks to a role equivalent to that of a general. His family, including my father (born in 1967) enjoyed a good upbringing and my dad even met the Shahbanu (Farah Diba) but unfortunately not the Shah himself. My mother had roots of the Shia Safavid Dynasty which reigned in Iran centuries prior so you could say they had quite a royalist background.

Under the Shah, Iran enjoyed modernisation and opening up to the West and women had a choice to wear a hijab and the right to vote. The Shah also, very excellently in my opinion, announced his support for both Palestine and Israel and a two-state solution. However, as some of you reading this will know, the Shi'ite clergy and the mullahs managed to amass a following to start a revolution. In the late months of 1978, when the Imperial regime fell apart, my dad's entire family was advised to leave by advisors of the Shah migrating to the UK. My mum came to the UK by about 2001, and she met my father there. With the clergy's control, much changed. Open relations with the west ended completely, women were stripped of all civil liberties, and the new regime enacted terrorism as seen with the capturing of US hostages in 1980. They condemned Israel and affiliated them with the "great Satan". My country also began to fund proxy groups like Hamas and Hezbollah.

Political Education

Learning about my country's history and actions further allowed me to gain an opinion on what was happening with Israel and Palestine. Before the Iranian Revolution, the Shah's regime was seen as a bastion of stability and friendship to the west in a territory of uncertainty. Thanks to the clergy, Israel now took that role. Looking at it all, Islamic fundamentalism is the greatest threat to democracy. My country is exporting terrorism, be it with the Houthis in Yemen, Hamas in Gaza, and Hezbollah. Israel must be protected because it is the final force we have against the darkness that extreme Islam brings. But, Hamas is not the only threat; in fact, it's not even a threat at all. Exterminating them will not achieve anything, as Iran will only replace them with a new group with the same purpose. What the west needs to do is target the Islamic regime in Iran and destroy the breeding ground of these groups, and STOP financial and military funding to both Ukraine, Israel and Gaza.

I know so many of you will vehemently disagree with this, but I am eager to hear your views and perhaps we can discuss things civilly.

This is very interesting and I agree we must look beyond Hamas in Gaza and look at who is funding them and organising them. The October 7 attack was highly coordinated and suggests outside support and intelligence. But why should the West stop funding Ukraine to defend itself? That has nothing to do with radical Islam and there's no suggestion Iran is involved. Do you mean that the West should try to depose the current leaders of Russia, as well as the mullahs in Iran?
Original post by Mesacake
Islamic fundamentalism is a threat to democracy, Russia is not. They have made it clear time and time again, if we left them and Ukraine alone, a friendly relationship would be possible as seen in the Trump administration in America. However, radical Islamists want to see the west eradicated so we must target the source of their hypocrisy.


Russia is a threat to democracy, they jail their rivals, invade neighbours and their elections are shams, so I need to make clear that was a silly thing to claim. A 'friendly' relationship with Russia might have been possible but was by no means assured or issue free for happy ever after. In terms of West/Rus relations Trumps presidiancy is an insignificant blip, most leaders like Putin and Kim ran rings round him.

You weren't able to answer my question, Why should Ukraine and Russia be left to it but Israel and Iran should be interfered with?
Reply 22
Original post by StriderHort
Russia is a threat to democracy, they jail their rivals, invade neighbours and their elections are shams, so I need to make clear that was a silly thing to claim. A 'friendly' relationship with Russia might have been possible but was by no means assured or issue free for happy ever after. In terms of West/Rus relations Trumps presidiancy is an insignificant blip, most leaders like Putin and Kim ran rings round him.

You weren't able to answer my question, Why should Ukraine and Russia be left to it but Israel and Iran should be interfered with?

Russia does not want to eradicate us. They want peace with the west and are simply paranoid of NATO's borders becoming closer to them. As such, allowing Ukraine into NATO poses no strategical value, same as Finland. If we said no right off the bat, this war wouldn't be happening.

Russia and Ukraine should be left to it as they are not our greatest threat right now and do not threaten the west's security and existence like radical Islam. We're talking about groups that listen to every whim given out by Iran and will kill themselves and thousands more to achieve a menial goal. Putin is smart, he does not want a war he can't win. These radical Muslims however know no bounds.
Reply 23
Original post by ohyegodsmyroast
This is very interesting and I agree we must look beyond Hamas in Gaza and look at who is funding them and organising them. The October 7 attack was highly coordinated and suggests outside support and intelligence. But why should the West stop funding Ukraine to defend itself? That has nothing to do with radical Islam and there's no suggestion Iran is involved. Do you mean that the West should try to depose the current leaders of Russia, as well as the mullahs in Iran?

Ukraine is just an example of how we can scale back intervention to territories that do not threaten us or pose strategical value. We should instead focus on targeting the breeding ground of all these terrorist groups and attacks, the regime in Iran. We need not depose the Russian rulers as that would not help us.

The mullahs in Iran control Hezbollah and Hamas, so toppling them will topple these organisations eventually. And I don't mean war, I mean very harsh sanctions and not giving them billions of pounds for a few hostages (silly Biden).
Original post by Mesacake
Why is October 7th forgotten about? And every attack by Palestinian terrorists on innocent Israelis. Hamas is worse than the IDF.

If you say Hamas doesn't represent Palestinians, then the IDF does not represent Israelis. Children and families are being killed on BOTH sides, so that argument doesn't really work.

That argument does work though. If you say you support Israel, you automatically agree with what they're doing to Palestinians, which they have been for decades.

You agree with the geocide.
You agree with the ethical cleaning.
You agree with the starvation.
You agree with limiting water and food.
You agree with isreal cutting all communications and power.
You agree with killing redcross volunteers and Bombing hospitals, churches and mosques.
You agree with isreal using illegal weapons, white phosphorus .
Exposure to white phosphorus can cause severe deep burns. The burns are extremely painful and result from a combination of thermal and chemical injuries. The affected areas of exposed skin may appear yellowish and may show necrotic, full-thickness burns surrounded by sloughed tissue
You agree with imprisoning's of innocent civilians that are CHILDREN.

You agree with the illegal settlers.
You agree with the occupation since 1947.
You agree with The 1948 Nakba, or the ethnic cleansing of Palestine. Where an estimated 15,000 Palestinians were killed, including in dozens of massacres.
Leaving 2 AMABULCES for 2 MILLION civilians.

These have included murder, intentional targeting of civilians, killing prisoners of war and surrendered combatants, indiscriminate attacks, collective punishment, starvation, the use of human shields, torture, pillage, forced transfer, breach of medical neutrality, targeting journalists, attacking civilian and protected objects, wanton destruction, incitement to genocide, and genocide.

I could go on and on about the war crimes isreal has committed, and for you to openly support isreal is just so ridiculous. Hopefully you will now realise that you were wrong about supporting such pigs.

.You agree with Israel's killing spree.
(edited 3 months ago)
Original post by Mesacake
Ever since Hamas won the Palestinian Authority election in 2006, they have fully controlled Gaza and Israel has not intervened. When they commenced a BRUTAL attack on innocent Israelis, then of course that will change.

If Hamas cared about Palestinians, they would have kept the peace, not attacked knowing full well there would be unprecedented retaliation.

theyre fighting for their OWN country omddd
Reply 26
Original post by zineb.elkettani
theyre fighting for their OWN country omddd

If you condemn Hamas' atrocities, I'll condemn Israel's atrocities.
Original post by Mesacake
Russia does not want to eradicate us. They want peace with the west and are simply paranoid of NATO's borders becoming closer to them. As such, allowing Ukraine into NATO poses no strategical value, same as Finland. If we said no right off the bat, this war wouldn't be happening.

Russia and Ukraine should be left to it as they are not our greatest threat right now and do not threaten the west's security and existence like radical Islam. We're talking about groups that listen to every whim given out by Iran and will kill themselves and thousands more to achieve a menial goal. Putin is smart, he does not want a war he can't win. These radical Muslims however know no bounds.

Not being funny but nothing about the Russia/NATO issue is 'simple', if it was smarter people that us would have wrapped it up long ago and the idea that US/RUS nuclear war would wipe us all out isn't that far in the past, and tbh I suspect these wars (Ukraine Georgia, Chechnya) were always a matter of time, NATO isn't alone in seeking expansion and resources.

It kinda sounds like you're putting Israel on an angelic pedestal and can't or won't see part it. It's a bit rich to call for covertly killing Iranian politicians in their own country and then moan that they present a risk to democracy or us at home, actions and reactions etc
Original post by Mesacake
If you condemn Hamas' atrocities, I'll condemn Israel's atrocities.

okay lets compare what hammas has done and isreal. go on
Reply 29
Original post by zineb.elkettani
okay lets compare what hammas has done and isreal. go on

1) Palestinians are not being ethnically cleansed. Indeed, those in Gaza have the highest fertility rate of any group in Israel.

2) Hamas is the political arm of a terrorist organization and frequently makes unprovoked attacks upon Israel and has stated that they wish to eradicate Israel.

3) Hamas is essentially a dictatorship that has not held free and fair elections since 2007 when they came to power.

Hamas raped and mutilated women on 7 October
Original post by Mesacake

1) Palestinians are not being ethnically cleansed. Indeed, those in Gaza have the highest fertility rate of any group in Israel.

2) Hamas is the political arm of a terrorist organization and frequently makes unprovoked attacks upon Israel and has stated that they wish to eradicate Israel.

3) Hamas is essentially a dictatorship that has not held free and fair elections since 2007 when they came to power.

Hamas raped and mutilated women on 7 October


Are u dumb? Are you daft? Genuinely asking???? I can’t be bothered to argue with someone like you. How can you seriously condemn Isreal ? For many years? Have you not read anything I’ve said? Isreal has raped many Young girls before, but the media never covers it.

You’re brainwashed
Original post by Mesacake
Ukraine is just an example of how we can scale back intervention to territories that do not threaten us or pose strategical value. We should instead focus on targeting the breeding ground of all these terrorist groups and attacks, the regime in Iran. We need not depose the Russian rulers as that would not help us.

The mullahs in Iran control Hezbollah and Hamas, so toppling them will topple these organisations eventually. And I don't mean war, I mean very harsh sanctions and not giving them billions of pounds for a few hostages (silly Biden).


Something about sanctions you aren't taking into account is the law of diminishing returns, the harsher they get the more that in fits and starts a country will make new friends and become self reliant, exampled in both Iran and DPRK, we sanctioned and embargoed the bejeezus out them to stop them getting the same nuclear weapons we have, and they pretty much managed to make them despite our efforts.

Once you've used this stick too much is breaks, and the more extreme, harsh and tubthumping your sanctions get the less the other side sees any point in talking to you. Take the nuclear deal, US utterly torpedoed it by pretty much saying 'Even if Iran keeps it's end of the deal we won't keep ours', you just can't deal with a position like that and people walk away from the table, no matter how much someone shouts 'We'll sanction Yoooooou!'
Original post by Mesacake
Islamic fundamentalism is a threat to democracy, Russia is not. They have made it clear time and time again, if we left them and Ukraine alone, a friendly relationship would be possible as seen in the Trump administration in America. However, radical Islamists want to see the west eradicated so we must target the source of their hypocrisy.

I am sorry but I just had a good laugh about your supposed interest in "geopolitics". Infact Ukraine has massively showed support for Israel officially. Oustside the Embassy of Israel Kyiv Residents dropped encouraging and supportive messages for Israel often with it being "Praying for Israel". Vladimir Putin on the other hand has condemned the war and showed support for Palestinians. Where are you getting your knowledge from? Also Hamas was not formed until the 1980s the Arab community has been suffering longer than that. I will provide a snippet for you-
During the Nakba (“catastrophe”) of 1948, more than 700,000 Palestinians were brutally displaced from their homes, with entire villages massacred and destroyed. Since its creation, Israel has never stopped pursuing its colonial expansion. The Palestinians were forced to exile, fragmented and administered under different regimes. Some of them are Israeli citizens affected by structural discrimination and racism.
Those living in the occupied West Bank are subjected to apartheid under decades of Israel’s military control. The people of the Gaza Strip have suffered from the blockade imposed by Israel since 2006, which restricted movement of people and goods, resulting in growing poverty and deprivation. So you see Israel has controlled their market for too long even if they did not interfere after 2006 as you say. When they already had put their claim on majority of the land and controlled the Gaza strip I don't think they even needed to do anything after 2006.
Original post by StriderHort
Something about sanctions you aren't taking into account is the law of diminishing returns, the harsher they get the more that in fits and starts a country will make new friends and become self reliant, exampled in both Iran and DPRK, we sanctioned and embargoed the bejeezus out them to stop them getting the same nuclear weapons we have, and they pretty much managed to make them despite our efforts.

Once you've used this stick too much is breaks, and the more extreme, harsh and tubthumping your sanctions get the less the other side sees any point in talking to you. Take the nuclear deal, US utterly torpedoed it by pretty much saying 'Even if Iran keeps it's end of the deal we won't keep ours', you just can't deal with a position like that and people walk away from the table, no matter how much someone shouts 'We'll sanction Yoooooou!'

I totally agree with you!! Sanctions do not work all the time especially we now are looking towards a new generation who will grow as orphans and are currently being attacked and displaced. The number of fatalities against women in this war has being astonishing. the children of Palestine are not blind no matter what you think. These are the people who grow up on streets and later form resistance groups against the oppressors. So if you are looking to dismantle Islamic "radicals" and major threats in the long run then I think you should start with the children of Palestine who are waiting patiently to rise again. Also no one is condoning Palestine atrocities as they are in fact supporting Hamas and resistance fighters as they are in severe danger of losing their last piece of land and identity to Israel just because they consider it as their holy land. Like you just want snatch other's piece of land because it was written somewhere in your book which only an infinite number of people follow. So its about time you start calling out these irrational Zionists too when you mention Islamists. Also I agree with you OP Israel has full right to defend itself as its done from the start - by heavily depending on war crime and mass fatalities on civilians, If you still think this is defence and has been defence from so long you are wrong. Also wars are used to take up on land and annex it. You cannot disagree with the fact that its not only about hostages but also to gain full control on West Bank where majority of their religious interest lies.
Original post by Mesacake
I am currently 16 years old and from an early age have always been greatly engaged in geopolitics and current affairs in the UK, Asia, America, etc; it's always been of immense interest to me. I will split why I support Israel into 2-3 sections, and I would love for people to ask me questions and let me know your viewpoints. I'm not closed off to my point of view like many.

Background

My grandfather, born in 1927 in Iran, was born just after a coup that saw the beginning of a new Imperial dynasty led by Reza Khan, now the Shah of Iran. 19 years later, after the more progressive takeover of his son, Mohammad Reza, he eagerly joined the Imperial Army and became a Private. By about 1970, he managed to rise the ranks to a role equivalent to that of a general. His family, including my father (born in 1967) enjoyed a good upbringing and my dad even met the Shahbanu (Farah Diba) but unfortunately not the Shah himself. My mother had roots of the Shia Safavid Dynasty which reigned in Iran centuries prior so you could say they had quite a royalist background.

Under the Shah, Iran enjoyed modernisation and opening up to the West and women had a choice to wear a hijab and the right to vote. The Shah also, very excellently in my opinion, announced his support for both Palestine and Israel and a two-state solution. However, as some of you reading this will know, the Shi'ite clergy and the mullahs managed to amass a following to start a revolution. In the late months of 1978, when the Imperial regime fell apart, my dad's entire family was advised to leave by advisors of the Shah migrating to the UK. My mum came to the UK by about 2001, and she met my father there. With the clergy's control, much changed. Open relations with the west ended completely, women were stripped of all civil liberties, and the new regime enacted terrorism as seen with the capturing of US hostages in 1980. They condemned Israel and affiliated them with the "great Satan". My country also began to fund proxy groups like Hamas and Hezbollah.

Political Education

Learning about my country's history and actions further allowed me to gain an opinion on what was happening with Israel and Palestine. Before the Iranian Revolution, the Shah's regime was seen as a bastion of stability and friendship to the west in a territory of uncertainty. Thanks to the clergy, Israel now took that role. Looking at it all, Islamic fundamentalism is the greatest threat to democracy. My country is exporting terrorism, be it with the Houthis in Yemen, Hamas in Gaza, and Hezbollah. Israel must be protected because it is the final force we have against the darkness that extreme Islam brings. But, Hamas is not the only threat; in fact, it's not even a threat at all. Exterminating them will not achieve anything, as Iran will only replace them with a new group with the same purpose. What the west needs to do is target the Islamic regime in Iran and destroy the breeding ground of these groups, and STOP financial and military funding to both Ukraine, Israel and Gaza.

I know so many of you will vehemently disagree with this, but I am eager to hear your views and perhaps we can discuss things civilly.

i don't see the shah as being a bastion of stability with the crackdowns on public dissent, especially after 1953 coup. many in their minds saw the Shah as a foreign-imposed leader. the only reason the shah was replaced by the mullahs was because he focused more on the socialists as they would be a bigger threat due to the Soviets, so in the aftermath of the revolution, the one who had more power would have been them. correct anything i say wrong since you may have an opinion. about the financial aid for Britain, we shouldn't,i agree since the us contributes a bigger chunk it can be their problem since we have our own. ironically i consider myself somewhat overall in the pro-Palestinian section i guess in principal; i agree with a significant part of your judgement
I agree with many of your points. :smile:

But not your stances on Ukraine or Russia.
I believe that the UK and USA should be willing to provide significant practical support and financial assistance when requested by allies in their hour of need.
Allies including the state of Israel and Ukraine.

The Putin regime which has governed Russia with an iron rod for decades is:

1) is deeply hostile towards many western democracies and has a long history of attempting to run extensive propaganda disinformation campaigns & commit acts of serious criminality within their territories.
The latter sometimes involving extremely dangerous chemicals and substances including novichok or polonium.
Particularly those nations with secular-humanist relatively liberal cultures or a commitment to retaining positive relations with nato members such as the uk and usa.

2) is close allies with a trio of horrendous and extremely brutal authoritarian regimes.
The vile Lukashenko regime in Belarus, the horrifying Kadyrov theocratic regime that rules Chechnya and the revolting Assad regime of Syria.

3) has a long history of shielding Russian cyber extortionists and brutal organised crime gangs involved in forcing unwilling adults into the sex trade/kidnapping the child members of wealthy families/ whilst aggressively targeting the honest Russian officials, journalists and finance professional whistleblowers seeking to expose such serious criminality within Russian territories.
Well this is going about as well as expected.

Israel is not perfect, no coutnry is (apart from the Uk naturally, RULE BRITANNIA) but Israel is better by every conviceable measure than Hamas.
Reply 37
Original post by jacksmith23
i don't see the shah as being a bastion of stability with the crackdowns on public dissent, especially after 1953 coup. many in their minds saw the Shah as a foreign-imposed leader. the only reason the shah was replaced by the mullahs was because he focused more on the socialists as they would be a bigger threat due to the Soviets, so in the aftermath of the revolution, the one who had more power would have been them. correct anything i say wrong since you may have an opinion. about the financial aid for Britain, we shouldn't,i agree since the us contributes a bigger chunk it can be their problem since we have our own. ironically i consider myself somewhat overall in the pro-Palestinian section i guess in principal; i agree with a significant part of your judgement

The Shah was actually a progressive for his time. In a time where crackdown was normal, he at least allowed modernisation and relaxed civil liberties and equal rights for both men and women.

Yes, there was some repression, now there is total repression. The prime minister in 1953 who was overthrown (Mohammad Mossadegh) was a socialist under the thumb of the Tudeh (communist) party. What’s also not told is that the U.S gave Mossadegh power in the first place believing that he would help control the Shah. However, their experiment failed and they got away with Mossadegh because of his attitude towards communists. Votes were manipulated in the 1951 election to be biased towards him.

What’s sad about the Shah is that it was the liberated men and women who graciously received paid for western education who revolted, wanting more political freedom. And we can see how well that turned out.
Reply 38
Original post by Andrew97
Well this is going about as well as expected.

Israel is not perfect, no coutnry is (apart from the Uk naturally, RULE BRITANNIA) but Israel is better by every conviceable measure than Hamas.

Israel has done wrong, but Hamas are cruel dogs who want to see the west eradicated
Reply 39
Original post by Mesacake
Zelenskyy is insanely corrupt. I know it's by no means a popular opinion, but Ukraine doesn't matter to me. It's a country many can't even find on a map. We shouldn't be funding them without any upside to us.

Instead, we should declare neutrality and let Russia and Ukraine fight their war, whilst reforming relations with Russia so we can fix our economy a little bit. It doesn't sound radical to me; not our country, not our business.

Your OP calls for civil discussion. Then you say this. I accept Ukraine has had deep-rooted corruption to deal with, much of it ingrained during the Soviet days (pre '90). But I refute any claim (esp. unsubstantiated) that Zelensky is corrupt. That meassage has been a part of Kremlin propaganda from day one. That alone is one reason to doubt it, but there is no EVIDENCE I have ever seen.
You appear to be pro-democracy, but from the comfort of your own democratic space. My point is that there is a much bigger picture here - unproven but supported by a lot of connecting evidence.
I propose that behind Iran right now is Russia, and that the Hamas attack was timed to cause extreme foreign policy challenges for the US in an election year. The fact it displaces the Ukraine war in all media is a bonus for Putin.
Putin is a truly despicable operator who must never be taken at his word and must never be trusted. He's an opportunist who will only stop when forced to. He's taken (by force) and bought influence in key strategic regions from the Caucasus through Middle East into Central Africa. Eritria is an example of a strategic alliance acquired only because of its location on the Red Sea west bank. The Red Sea and Suez is a vital but extremely vulnerable trading channel for Europe in particular and Russia is closing in using proxies.
Trump is 'America First' and has said he would withdraw from NATO. (and btw, did we all know that the US is the World's biggest arms maker, and that NATO is by far its biggest customer?)
Trump firmly believes the US is big anough to stand alone. I disagree.
What is happening from Ukraine to Israel to Sudan is not an odd set of coincidences. We are watching the potential power-remapping of a vast swathe of our planet.
Anyone concerned enough to pay attention must know putin hates the US beyond words. He will do everything possible to destroy the US. And he works like rust... slowly, never stopping.
I conclude that what is happening in the Middle East is a part of a bigger stage. Europe needs to adjust to a World without the US as an ally. And everyone needs to understand Trump is in all this to sate his own enormous ego.

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