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Will I get a TN to Kirkland & Ellis

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Original post by Stiffy Byng
I'm an Oxford graduate (Modern History). I have practised in commercial and public law at the London Bar and internationally for over thirty years. My current practice involves international commercial disputes, and I work with lawyers from several jurisdictions.
MsSpecter22, I agree with those above who have suggested that you focus on doing the best you can at school, and do not fixate on one university, one law firm, or one type of career, in the law or not. Until you start studying law, it may be difficult for you to decide which area of the law interests you, and whether you wish to be a disputes lawyer, a transactional lawyer, and so on. In addition, which firm or chambers a young lawyers end at, and which area of work they start out in, depends on many factors such as market forces, and sheer luck of the draw.
It may go without saying that the practice of law is not accurately represented by TV shows and films. Being a lawyer can be enormous fun. The intellectual, moral, and financial rewards can be good. But being a lawyer also involves a lot of hard work, not all of that work is exciting, and some of it can be very tedious. Some clients are horrible people, and some types of legal practice can be ethically, psychologically, and emotionally challenging. Most lawyers don't work in gleaming city offices of swanky chambers, and many lawyers lead a humdrum life for not great money. Obtaining a place in a leading law firm or set of chambers is very difficult.
You might find that you don't take to the law when you start to study it. You might decide that you prefer to do a non law degree and then study law after your first degree. Or you might find that you delight in academic legal enquiry and wish to become an academic lawyer, or that you'd prefer training to be a barrister and not a solicitor. It's too early to know what you will think about these things when you are starting university and when you are graduating.
I add that thegeek888 is, I am sure, trying to be helpful, but he tends to give dogmatic and not always reliable advice despite having no experience of university, or of legal practice. He is, as far as I know, an A level student who hasn't yet applied to any university or worked in any legal job, and doesn't plan to apply to university until 2027. The idea of aiming to practise tax law in the hope of meeting celebrities is entertaining, but also a bit daft.
Good luck in your studies.


Indeed. Your experience accords with my own. What amazes me these days is the number of lawyers in their mid-twenties who want a six figure salary combined with work-life-balance.

Entering the legal profession as a commercial barrister or as a solicitor in a leading law firm is incredibly demanding both physically and mentally. The attrition rate is high and corporate law is one of the most intense disciplines.
Original post by thegeek888
I am applying to St. John's College, Oxford University and also LSE, UCL, KCL and SOAS in October 2027. When are you applying?
A to Z Firm List - Chambers Student Guide
1. I have been collating a list of the largest top 200 UK law firms with offices here in London, UK. So, I can write to the recruitment manager of the respective firm and gain 2 to 3 days of work shadowing a solicitor. Also, I have copied the list of all the barristers in the UK and selected the London Chambers, and there are 193, and at least one will allow me to shadow them at their Chambers hopefully.
2. I have seen a lot of profiles of current solicitors at law firms on the websites of firms, as I have been searching for the careers/recruitment email addresses on the websites of the firms here in London and a lot of them studied English, History and French or Spanish or even German. Lol
3. Yes, you have to show you have a passion for the ‘academic’ study of Law. Also, the interviews will be on Year 1 papers such as Criminal Law, Tort Law and Constitutional Law.
4. Oxford Introduction to Law in the UK Summer Programme | Faculty of Law this course is excellent, especially if you’re taking a gap year or are applying with your achieved actual A-Level grades.
5. I can’t stress, how important the GCSE grades are for admission, as they are the only grades the admissions tutors have and the LNAT score alongside the UCAS Personal Statement to judge your application on. So I would recommend applying post A-Level with your A-Level grades achieved.
6. The US universities have a 4 year degree and a 3 year JD degree and 2 more years to to qualify as a Lawyer, compared to 3 years of any degree or a Law degree and SQE 1 year and 2 years of the training contract.
7. You would not want to transfer to the USA offices, as so many Americans work here in London and the London offices of USA firms offer £150,000 to £200,000 per year upon being a Newly Qualified Solicitor.
8. Here are the list of American Law firms with offices here in London you should email the careers person in charge for work experience:
9. Top US law firms in London
1. Kirkland & Ellis
2. Latham & Watkins
3. White & Case
4. Baker McKenzie
5. Skadden
6. Dentons
7. Simpson Thacher
8. Reed Smith
9. Weil
10. Mayer Brown
11. Milbank
12. Debevoise & Plimpton
13. Squire Patton Boggs
14. Shearman & Sterling
15. Quinn Emanuel Urquhart & Sullivan
16. Akin Gump Strauss Hauer & Feld
17. Dechert
18. Cleary Gottlieb
19. Sidley Austin
20. Ropes & Gray
21. Sullivan & Cromwell
22. Jones Day
23. Covington & Burling
24. Paul Hastings
25. Goodwin Procter
26. Proskauer
27. Gibson Dunn
28. Morgan Lewis
29. Davis Polk
30. Willkie Farr & Gallagher
31. Cooley
32. Fried Frank
33. Orrick
34. K&L Gates
35. Vinson & Elkins


Thegeek888, your statement "The US universities have a 4 year degree and a 3 year JD degree and 2 more years to to qualify as a Lawyer, compared to 3 years of any degree or a Law degree and SQE 1 year and 2 years of the training contract." is partly inaccurate.

In the US, law is indeed a three year postgraduate degree, but after obtaining a law degree it does not take a further two years to qualify as a practising lawyer. Holders of law degrees take the Bar Examinations for one or more States with the US. They usually do this shortly after finishing the law degree, and are then admitted to the Bar of whichever state they have passed the exam for. Lawyers admitted to the Bar in one state can obtain admissions in other states, on a temporary or permanent basis. Lawyers from non US jurisdictions can also take the Bar examinations in US States.

In the UK, many aspirant lawyers train as solicitors or barristers straight after taking an undergraduate degree (adding one year to take the GDL if the first degree was not in law), but it is not uncommon for aspirant lawyers to do an LLM, BCL or other postgraduate degree before professional training. It is increasingly the case that those seeking pupillages at the leading barristers' chambers have postgraduate degrees in addition to good first degrees from highly rated universities.

I politely suggest that giving advice such as "you would not want to transfer to the US offices" is inappropriate. You can have no idea what might be right for the OP by the time she is working at a law firm, if that is the path which she takes. Seeking to help others is admirable, but you are not really in a position to give advice about things of which you have, at present, no direct experience.
Original post by katana10000
Indeed. Your experience accords with my own. What amazes me these days is the number of lawyers in their mid-twenties who want a six figure salary combined with work-life-balance.
Entering the legal profession as a commercial barrister or as a solicitor in a leading law firm is incredibly demanding both physically and mentally. The attrition rate is high and corporate law is one of the most intense disciplines.


Someone above mentioned ten to fourteen hour days. Those could sometimes be considered shortish days! If you are a litigator engaged in a trial or in injunction work, you can be working flat out, and the same goes for corporate lawyers engaged in a big transaction. In my early years at the commercial bar, I sometimes worked sixteen to eighteen hours each weekday, and for several hours most weekends. I partied the rest of the time. I didn't sleep much. I sometimes slept in my chambers.

These days I take things more slowly, but I am old and self-employed, and I don't have billing targets. I was for a while a partner in a medium sized international law firm, and that was a busy job.

Being a lawyer isn't all work. There are quiet spells, and sometimes working flat out can be fun, if you are engaged in an interesting project. The law is a sociable profession, and you get to work with clever, motivated, and interesting people who often have interests extending beyond the law. You have to look after your physical and mental health, and take regular breaks when you really do try to get away from work. Lawyers used to be (and some still are) big on intoxicants, both legal and otherwise; and mental distress, relationship breakdown, and burnout can be problems for busy practitioners. I am not saying don't try for a legal career, but do it with your eyes open as to the demands it makes.
Original post by katana10000


There are advantages to going to a top UK firm as they are full service and offer more discipline to focus on. I don’t see how you can want to be a corporate lawyer with no experience of what that entails. You may find structured finance or debt capital markets more interesting for example.


I’ve done some work experience at Shearman in the International Arbitration department and a few more online programs and found that I prefer litigation and arbitration to things liek M&A or finance, in general I dereste anything that has to do with maths so I’m pretty sure I would hate the finance department if I tried it out somewhere
Original post by katana10000


Indeed. Your experience accords with my own. What amazes me these days is the number of lawyers in their mid-twenties who want a six figure salary combined with work-life-balance.

Entering the legal profession as a commercial barrister or as a solicitor in a leading law firm is incredibly demanding both physically and mentally. The attrition rate is high and corporate law is one of the most intense disciplines.


Doesn’t having a true passion that stems form the the love for the law help in the discipline of wanting to maintain work-life-balance? Plus other factors like whether you wish to start a family or not, whether you are a person that prioritises career over other things? If one’s happiness comes from a successful career then I believe that would be the reason why they are able to maintain a work-life balance on the contrary to someone that has other aspiration besides career, you wouldn’t agree?
Original post by MsSpecter22
I’ve done some work experience at Shearman in the International Arbitration department and a few more online programs and found that I prefer litigation and arbitration to things liek M&A or finance, in general I dereste anything that has to do with maths so I’m pretty sure I would hate the finance department if I tried it out somewhere


You don’t need to be any less numerate to practice corporate law I’m afraid. It helps to understand balance sheets, accounts and if you are doing private equity you will come across financial models. These are examples of why it may not be a good idea to have preconceptions as to what type of lawyer you will be. I used to work at Shearman and I did not enjoy the experience - the culture of the firm plays a big role too.
Original post by MsSpecter22
Doesn’t having a true passion that stems form the the love for the law help in the discipline of wanting to maintain work-life-balance? Plus other factors like whether you wish to start a family or not, whether you are a person that prioritises career over other things? If one’s happiness comes from a successful career then I believe that would be the reason why they are able to maintain a work-life balance on the contrary to someone that has other aspiration besides career, you wouldn’t agree?


How you feel today may be very different to how you feel ten years from now. Personally speaking, I did not enjoy the study of law and I now exclusively work on international transactions which is much more commercial than legal.
Original post by MsSpecter22
I’ve done some work experience at Shearman in the International Arbitration department and a few more online programs and found that I prefer litigation and arbitration to things liek M&A or finance, in general I dereste anything that has to do with maths so I’m pretty sure I would hate the finance department if I tried it out somewhere


Sorry, I confused you with the person who wanted to be a corporate lawyer. If you enjoy legislation and case law, litigation not a bad option.
Original post by katana10000
You don’t need to be any less numerate to practice corporate law I’m afraid. It helps to understand balance sheets, accounts and if you are doing private equity you will come across financial models. These are examples of why it may not be a good idea to have preconceptions as to what type of lawyer you will be. I used to work at Shearman and I did not enjoy the experience - the culture of the firm plays a big role too.


I add to Katana's very sensible and experience-based comments that, as a trainee solicitor, you will have to spend time working in different departments of the firm (usually four), and you won't automatically get to choose which department you will start in if, at the end of the training contract, the firm offers you a job.

You do not have to be a maths whizz to practise commercial law, but you must be able to grasp some basic financial concepts, read a balance sheet and so on. You can learn these things.

Please take this kindly, MsSpecter22, but at present you can't expect to know much about what practising law is like, and you can't expect to know what your interests and priorities will be when you are twenty one. As you go along, you will learn more about how the law works in practice, and what sort of lawyer (if any) you may wish to become.

It is sometimes said that there is a difference between the business of law and the practice of law, and it is also sometimes said that if you love the law as an intellectual subject you should consider being a barrister rather than a solicitor (if not going the whole hog and becoming a legal academic); but the reality is that nobody can be a good practical lawyer without a strong basic understanding of the law. Whether you need to be passionate about the law is another matter. A passion for, or at the least a commitment to finding solutions for the problems brought to you by clients is something which you will need.

I used to regard the law mainly as a tool for resolving societal problems, and I still so regard it; but over the years, and particularly after doing a lot of public law, anti-corruption, and anti-kleptocracy work, I have come to love the law (and the common law in particular) as a flawed but virtuous creation of human ingenuity. I am Irish, but I regard the common law as a great gift from the British to humanity. The Brits have done some bad things, but good things too, and the common law is one of them.
(edited 1 month ago)
Original post by katana10000
Sorry, I confused you with the person who wanted to be a corporate lawyer. If you enjoy legislation and case law, litigation not a bad option.



I suspect that MsSpecter22 may have been using the term "corporate law" in a less precise sense than you and I would use it. She may have meant commercial law in general as opposed to the type of work done by corporate departments of big law firms.
Original post by Stiffy Byng
Original post by katana10000
Indeed. Your experience accords with my own. What amazes me these days is the number of lawyers in their mid-twenties who want a six figure salary combined with work-life-balance.
Entering the legal profession as a commercial barrister or as a solicitor in a leading law firm is incredibly demanding both physically and mentally. The attrition rate is high and corporate law is one of the most intense disciplines.


Someone above mentioned ten to fourteen hour days. Those could sometimes be considered shortish days! If you are a litigator engaged in a trial or in injunction work, you can be working flat out, and the same goes for corporate lawyers engaged in a big transaction. In my early years at the commercial bar, I sometimes worked sixteen to eighteen hours each weekday, and for several hours most weekends. I partied the rest of the time. I didn't sleep much. I sometimes slept in my chambers.

These days I take things more slowly, but I am old and self-employed, and I don't have billing targets. I was for a while a partner in a medium sized international law firm, and that was a busy job.

Being a lawyer isn't all work. There are quiet spells, and sometimes working flat out can be fun, if you are engaged in an interesting project. The law is a sociable profession, and you get to work with clever, motivated, and interesting people who often have interests extending beyond the law. You have to look after your physical and mental health, and take regular breaks when you really do try to get away from work. Lawyers used to be (and some still are) big on intoxicants, both legal and otherwise; and mental distress, relationship breakdown, and burnout can be problems for busy practitioners. I am not saying don't try for a legal career, but do it with your eyes open as to the demands it makes.


Hi there! Thank you for sharing your experience. I would love to hear more about it. I have heard many lawyers I’ve spoken to say the same thing, I never got a second doubted that law is a competitive and often draining career due to the workload, but again, in my opinion some handle high levels of stress better then others and in general law is not for everybody, for now I am sticking to law, let’s see where life takes me!
Original post by katana10000


You don’t need to be any less numerate to practice corporate law I’m afraid. It helps to understand balance sheets, accounts and if you are doing private equity you will come across financial models. These are examples of why it may not be a good idea to have preconceptions as to what type of lawyer you will be. I used to work at Shearman and I did not enjoy the experience - the culture of the firm plays a big role too.


How come you didn’t like Shearman if you don’t mind me asking? - Maybe we will see if I end up doing a seat in finance during my TC (if I can manage to get one)
Original post by katana10000


How you feel today may be very different to how you feel ten years from now. Personally speaking, I did not enjoy the study of law and I now exclusively work on international transactions which is much more commercial than legal.


Right I see, I mean to each their own! I personally love the concept behind the law and I like to always learn more about it but it’s not for everybody! The chances I will change my mind are very low but who knows, if I do it’s probably going to be something around the field of politics :smile:
Original post by katana10000


Sorry, I confused you with the person who wanted to be a corporate lawyer. If you enjoy legislation and case law, litigation not a bad option.


No worries
Original post by MsSpecter22
How come you didn’t like Shearman if you don’t mind me asking? - Maybe we will see if I end up doing a seat in finance during my TC (if I can manage to get one)


It was just and unpleasant working environment with unpleasant people. I. Any event Shearman will no longer exist as they are being taken over by A&O.
Original post by katana10000


It was just and unpleasant working environment with unpleasant people. I. Any event Shearman will no longer exist as they are being taken over by A&O.


Mhm I see, maybe I didn’t get to see the true side of it since I was only there for a short while but from what I did see they seemed quite nice, I might be wrong tho. About the merger, I don’t know if I would say they won’t exist anymore since it’ll still be recognised as A&O Shearman. Regardless of so, we all have account to our own opinion
Original post by MsSpecter22
Mhm I see, maybe I didn’t get to see the true side of it since I was only there for a short while but from what I did see they seemed quite nice, I might be wrong tho. About the merger, I don’t know if I would say they won’t exist anymore since it’ll still be recognised as A&O Shearman. Regardless of so, we all have account to our own opinion


Big law firm mergers are often takeovers, whatever the PR team says, and one firm is swallowed up by the other. The same sometimes happens with sets of chambers.
Original post by Stiffy Byng


Big law firm mergers are often takeovers, whatever the PR team says, and one firm is swallowed up by the other. The same sometimes happens with sets of chambers.


I see that makes sense, I wonder what’s the true reason for their merger
Original post by MsSpecter22
I see that makes sense, I wonder what’s the true reason for their merger
Part of the reason is because A&O are looking to expand their influence in the US, which is where Shearman is primarily based. Getting into the habit of building your commercial awareness by researching the latest news in the legal field will help you in the long run as you'd be expected to know about things like the A&O/Shearman merger as a lawyer. You can do this by regularly looking at the news web pages of the big law firms and also looking at the Law web pages of BBC News and the Guardian. A lot of the law firms also have podcasts on Spotify. I still think your detailed planning of the future is premature, but as you're so intent on doing so, keeping up to date with legal developments is a decent use of your time.

Some of the latest hot topics in the legal field that you may want to start with are AI and also sustainability. For AI, you can look into how law firms are implementing generative AI to cut time when writing emails/drafting documents. Some firms have legal tech departments which specialise in this so it's worth checking out this page on firms' websites. Also, firms' IP (intellectual property) departments are increasingly dealing with AI-related cases which you can look into. These are the kind of stuff they'll ask you about at interview.
(edited 1 month ago)
Original post by Stiffy Byng
I add to Katana's very sensible and experience-based comments that, as a trainee solicitor, you will have to spend time working in different departments of the firm (usually four), and you won't automatically get to choose which department you will start in if, at the end of the training contract, the firm offers you a job.
You do not have to be a maths whizz to practise commercial law, but you must be able to grasp some basic financial concepts, read a balance sheet and so on. You can learn these things.
Please take this kindly, MsSpecter22, but at present you can't expect to know much about what practising law is like, and you can't expect to know what your interests and priorities will be when you are twenty one. As you go along, you will learn more about how the law works in practice, and what sort of lawyer (if any) you may wish to become.
It is sometimes said that there is a difference between the business of law and the practice of law, and it is also sometimes said that if you love the law as an intellectual subject you should consider being a barrister rather than a solicitor (if not going the whole hog and becoming a legal academic); but the reality is that nobody can be a good practical lawyer without a strong basic understanding of the law. Whether you need to be passionate about the law is another matter. A passion for, or at the least a commitment to finding solutions for the problems brought to you by clients is something which you will need.
I used to regard the law mainly as a tool for resolving societal problems, and I still so regard it; but over the years, and particularly after doing a lot of public law, anti-corruption, and anti-kleptocracy work, I have come to love the law (and the common law in particular) as a flawed but virtuous creation of human ingenuity. I am Irish, but I regard the common law as a great gift from the British to humanity. The Brits have done some bad things, but good things too, and the common law is one of them.
As a law student, I really liked how you worded the last paragraph summarising what the law represents for you.

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