UKIP couple lose foster children

Original post by ArtGoblin

It didn't look like people did understand why they were removed so I thought I would explain it again as an attempt to stop people saying they only got 'their' children taken away because they were seen as racist when that wasn't the case. Personally I am unsure whether it was the right thing to do - I haven't come across anywhere that says they being sensitive to their cultural needs but if they were then it seems like the wrong decision.

I think social workers have a more difficult job that many people give them credit for. Sometimes they have to make difficult call about whether a child should be taken into care or not, and chances are at some point they're going to get it wrong because they can't ever know exactly what is going to happen. When they do get it wrong, they are hounded by the media and the public when it was an impossible choice to make. It's not surprising that social workers are overly cautious because they know what happens to them when they get it wrong.

Original post by Elipsis

We are all aware of why they were removed, we don't agree with the decision. You haven't actually explained why the decision is right... The Foster parents in question were certainly going to much greater lengths to help the children with their Polish culture than many of the other foster parents available probably would do.

I'm also sick to the back teeth of social workers incompetence being covered over by 'pressure'.

The problem is, we are not all aware of why they were removed. We are aware of the press coverage and the accusation, but for obvious reasons the social workers involved are not able to take to the press and release all the information that led them to their decision. We are aware the foster carers have claimed they were helping the children to develop a sense of their ethnic and cultural background. We're also aware the foster carers were paid up members of UKIP, a party which openly opposes multiculturalism and promotes uniculturalism. Because the evidence to suggest that children in care, who are helped to develop a sense of their ethnic and cultural identity, benefit massively from that sense of identity later in their childhood, local authorities are required by law to ensure they provide this. It's not up to them to decide if it is or isn't important. In this case, the local authority had been particularly criticised by a judge for failing to ensure that was considered for these children. It would be extremely difficult for a social worker to know to what extent the foster carers views on uniculturalism and Britishness might impede their ability to do that, but it's not entirely unimaginable that they might have felt there was good evidence, including the fact that this couple were openly opposed to multiculturalism, to assume they might find it very difficult to support these children in growing up to identify with Polish culture as a part of their identity. It isn't down to social workers to decide if that's important, the law says it's important and a judge had said it was important, because all the evidence says it's important.

We have no idea if the foster parents in question were "certainly going to much greater lengths to help the children with their Polish culture than many of the other foster parents available probably would do" because we don't know what they did. We know they're very angry, but we have only their one sided description of what happened and a rather discrete and for obvious reasons lacking in detail defence from the Director of Children's Services. Social workers aren't in a position to confirm what evidence they had to make them concerned, or what was said on the telephone, or whether they were really accused of being racist, or why someone had felt the need to "tip off" social services about their UKIP membership. Presumably who ever tipped them off was concerned about something. We don't know what. I can't tell you why the decision is right, because I don't have any of the information on which the decision was made (except that the couple were members of a political party committed to uniculturalism and being employed to help vulnerable young children develop and value a different culture to the one promoted by UKIP as the only valid one in this country). That's not to say they haven't made excellent foster carers for other children before, or would do again. Clearly had these children had a traditional British cultural background then their membership of UKIP and views on multiculturalism wouldn't have been an issue at all.

Perhaps the decision was wrong, perhaps not, it's extremely hard to tell on the basis of the accusations made in the press, but I'm just suggesting there are grounds on which it *might* have been the best decision. I'm sorry that you're sick of social workers incompetence.. perhaps you'd like to go and work as a social worker? I suspect not. There aren't exactly huge queues of people desperate to become child protection social workers. It doesn't particularly help to attract more when they are constantly vilified for making decisions that, at the very least, they must at the time have believed were helping those children. Perhaps if the difficult decisions that social workers are asked to make were valued a bit more highly; perhaps if there was coverage in the press when social workers got it right, or we heard about all the children they successfully protect from horrific abuse or whose lives they save; perhaps if we publicly congratulated them when they were successful, rather than just attack them when a difficult decision perhaps turns out to be the wrong one; then maybe more people would aspire to be social workers and protect children, and maybe the quality of the decision making would go up.

Reply 62

LurkerintheDark

This is what happens when the limp-wristed liberal slime get their way!!

Reply 63

dj1015

13

Looks like Rotherham council are also good at digging them selfs deeper in to their own holes.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2238155/We-RIGHT-foster-children-away-Ukip-couple-insists-social-workers.html?ITO=1490&ns_mchannel=rss&ns_campaign=1490

Reply 64

mmmpie

12

Original post by LurkerintheDark

This is what happens when the limp-wristed liberal slime get their way!!

It's interesting that the "limp-wristed liberal slime" are presenting some quite thoughtful criticism of this decision here, while people like you spout hyperbolic nonsense.

Reply 65

Original post by Pkysam

Social workers do not investigate the rape of underage girls, that is a role for the police.

No they just ignored the children who told them they were being raped and referred to the children in hundreds of documents leaked to The Times newspaper as "prostitutes" who were making a lifestyle choice!

Even though in the eyes of the law it is impossible for a child under the the of 16 to consent to sex.

Why are you defending the indefensible?

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Reply 66

Original post by Pkysam

No, there would be a problem if it was felt that the parents would be unable to reflect the children's identity.

What does that nonsense mean?! Is there a way of changing a nappy or giving a child a bath that reflects their cultural identity?!

This PC jargon is utter gibberish.

If people are living here they should feel British. What about British people's rights for their country to have such a shared identity rather than a fractured disunited set of peoples who just happen to live in the same country?

No they don't count of course and it's perfectly ok for our society to be populated with people with nothing in common, no shared values which benefits security and preserves our cultural heritage?

This insidious pc bile is what causes segregation and friction.

If the parents of the children were so concerned about their polish heritage and identity they wouldn't have brought them to Britain in the first place. They can't have their cake and eat it.

You sound like one these politically correct Stasi yourself who seem to be so prevalent in these organisations.

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Reply 67

Rotherham council are really covering themselves in glory recently! Ignore child rape for years but get a whiff that children are being fostered by ukip supporters and they swing into action instantly!

They're not a good advert for Rotherham and if I lived there I'd be ashamed to be represented by these politically biased jobs worths.

'Racism' is the new ultimate sin in the new Marxist politically correct religion!

"In future the fascists will masquerade as anti fascists" - Winston Churchill

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Reply 68

Original post by dj1015

Looks like Rotherham council are also good at digging them selfs deeper in to their own holes.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2238155/We-RIGHT-foster-children-away-Ukip-couple-insists-social-workers.html?ITO=1490&ns_mchannel=rss&ns_campaign=1490

Gobsmacking. I'm seething now. This clown needs to go ASAP.

It seems it isn't intelligence or skill that gets you to a senior position in these public sector orgs, rather if your face fits (left wing, unionised, marxist) and if you're fully signed up and an enforcer of the new left wing politically correct diktat that we are all forced to submit too.

This is genuinely Orwellian and the biggest threat to our hard won freedoms.

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Reply 69

Pkysam

Original post by DanRBlake

What does that nonsense mean?! Is there a way of changing a nappy or giving a child a bath that reflects their cultural identity?!

This PC jargon is utter gibberish.

If people are living here they should feel British. What about British people's rights for their country to have such a shared identity rather than a fractured disunited set of peoples who just happen to live in the same country?

No they don't count of course and it's perfectly ok for our society to be populated with people with nothing in common, no shared values which benefits security and preserves our cultural heritage?

This insidious pc bile is what causes segregation and friction.

If the parents of the children were so concerned about their polish heritage and identity they wouldn't have brought them to Britain in the first place. They can't have their cake and eat it.

You sound like one these politically correct Stasi yourself who seem to be so prevalent in these organisations.

This was posted from The Student Room's iPhone/iPad App

No, there is no way that changing a nappy is different depending on your ethnic background. We could, as you suggest, stick all children in orphanages, make sure they're fed and watered and get their nappy changed, perhaps make them sing God Save the Queen every morning, and pretend that they're likely to grow up into well balanced successful adults. Unfortunately that doesn't happen, despite you seeming entirely oblivious to children having any needs more complex than getting their arse wiped.

Coming to terms with your sense of self and your identity as a person is a fairly important part of child development. In adolescence, children begin to explore and develop their identity. This goes for sexual identity, cultural identity, religious beliefs, occupational goals. It's the focus of a huge part of adolescent development, during which a child starts to gain a sense of who they are and where they fit in the world. Children who have been brought up in foster care often have huge difficulties with this, and often have a deeply troubled adolescence dominated by feelings that they don't belong and don't fit in. Their background is one of abuse and sadness. Where normal children look to their parents and aspire to be like them, many children in the care system are prevented from doing that for obvious reasons. As a result a huge amount of work is done with these children to help them develop a positive sense of identity, and their ethnic and cultural background is a large part of that. These children will be supported and encouraged to be proud of their background and identify with it, so that they can develop a sense of belonging. They will also get life story books, and progressively have conversations about their background and how they came to be in care and where they came from. The evidence is that this all helps children to stand the best chance of developing normally. The problem with them being brought up by people who strongly feel that is the wrong approach, is that the evidence is sufficiently convincing that there is a requirement in law that local authorities consider how they can best meet a child's requirement to be supported to develop a sense of their ethnic and cultural identity. This isn't a decision that social workers get to make, they had been criticised by a judge for failing to ensure these children's ethnic and cultural needs were being considered when they were placed.

Perhaps you call this "PC Jargon", but it's still the law, and social workers don't get to decide it isn't important. I'm sure you've done a lot of work with vulnerable damaged children who've grown up in the care system and speak with a wealth of experience of the many difficulties they face. In that case, I suggest you have a discussion with policy makers, who have obviously completely missed your extensive research evidence demonstrating that this is all "nonsense" from the "politically correct Stasi".

Original post by DanRBlake

No they just ignored the children who told them they were being raped and referred to the children in hundreds of documents leaked to The Times newspaper as "prostitutes" who were making a lifestyle choice!

Even though in the eyes of the law it is impossible for a child under the the of 16 to consent to sex.

Why are you defending the indefensible?

You're right, that case is indefensible, clearly serious mistakes were made, the result of which was awful. There was a failing on behalf of many social workers (several of whom are now likely to be sacked), and on behalf of the police (who it seems will face no action). As usually happens, the blame is placed on individual social workers, who I don't deny failed in this case. I suppose my point, though, was that I'm not sure it's very helpful to just constantly criticise social workers as being inept. What's your solution? Just keep sacking them? Perhaps we should sack them all? When did you last hear a success story in social work? When did you last see a social worker mentioned in positive light in the press? The truth is, these jobs are hard. Sometimes patients die because doctors make mistakes.. that happens a lot more often than you might think. Every year in August the new batch of F1s start and deaths increase. Do we demand a whole load of doctors are immediately sacked? Clearly not. Sometimes these judgements are difficult, and sometimes the wrong decision will be made despite the best of intentions. That doesn't *always* mean that the people involved were incompetent.

Reply 70

fallen_acorns

OP

20

Original post by Emilin

OP: I noticed an error, it's 'lose' not 'loose'. Sorry - grammatical errors can bring out the pedant in me!

I read this story the other day, and I think there must be more to it than meets the eye. We don't know the full story...

ta emilin

il change it now

Reply 71

Original post by Pkysam

No, there is no way that changing a nappy is different depending on your ethnic background. We could, as you suggest, stick all children in orphanages, make sure they're fed and watered and get their nappy changed, perhaps make them sing God Save the Queen every morning, and pretend that they're likely to grow up into well balanced successful adults. Unfortunately that doesn't happen, despite you seeming entirely oblivious to children having any needs more complex than getting their arse wiped.

I don't remember suggesting sticking all children in orphanages, not sure why you're putting words into my mouth but please don't. Using these ridiculous exagerated scenarios like singing the national anthem doesn't do your credibility or agrument any favours.

Anyway it would be difficult for an orphan to get to the UK alone so it seems the parents brought the children to the UK in first place without much thought for their 'cultural identity'. Why should any decent people here suffer because of their decision?

I think your basic premise is a straw man argument and fails to address the main issue this case raises so therefore is for the most part irrelevant.

The thing that most middle of the road Brits are angry at is the encroaching nature of political correctness by those in government organisations which places political beliefs above the safety of children and basic justice. There's numerous examples like this of this 'equality' facism in action.

The left seems so concerned about preserving everyone's cultural heritage and identity apart from the British.

So if you're so concerned about the identity of non British people living here presumably you're equally concerned about the erosion of British culture to be replaced with multiculturalism? Why is one to be protected and promoted over the other?

I therefore presume you're railing against the fact that British history isn't taught in schools with any kind of coherent narrative thus failing to give British children an idea of THEIR identity and connection to where they came from? Rather marxist poison is being taught instead like "How fair was feudalism?"

I wonder what your stance is on the fact that state schools are less about giving children a decent education and more about indoctrinating them into the new PC diktat? Churning out drones like them who are told what to believe. The fact that public institutions like education and councils have been taken over by the left and anyone wanting promotion must demonstrate they are a zealous convert to this new ideology of multiculturalism.

We have to bend over to accomodate other cultures and identites at the expense of our own. Most of the population disagree with this so these views are in the minority and undemocratic, but unfortunately held by our traitorous politicians. People (non racist, reasonable, decent people) are angry about this, espeically as we were never asked if we wanted to be multicultural in the first place, this was forced on the population against their will. This is an injustice against the British people.

The UKIP Foster case is clear, the council are on record and have defended their position that they removed the children because the felt UKIPs immigration policy was extreme and racist - why are you doing your best to ignore the facts and put up false arguments to defend them.

This case is about the nature of the new left wing ideology which I believe is as bigoted and oppressive as anything it claims to oppose with it's stifling of free speech and supressing any views that disagree with it. Your talk of 'reflecting cultural identity' is just part of this new language.

The fact that people are being penalised in modern Britian for having perfectly acceptable beliefs and political afiliations is deeply worrying and possibly scary. This is the same thinking that motivated Gordon Brown's comments in the famous gaffe where he called someone with genuinely held concerns about immigration as a "bigoted woman."

This insideous attack on freedom should be utterly ridiculed and condemned or else these Stasi like officals will only go further. This is the thin end of the wedge.

Is it extreme and racist to not want to become a minority in your own country? The labour council officials say it is! This is predicted to happen by 2060 but probably will happen far sooner with many cities including our capital nearly there already! This is a catastrophe.

I think the labour party's policy to import millions of immigrants against the wishes of the British people to change the demographic make up of this country forever and buy votes can be considered extreme, yet the people who object to this undemocratic imposition are labelled as extremists and racists for merely disagreeing with it?! This is dangerous.

You're right, that case is indefensible, clearly serious mistakes were made, the result of which was awful. There was a failing on behalf of many social workers (several of whom are now likely to be sacked), and on behalf of the police (who it seems will face no action). As usually happens, the blame is placed on individual social workers, who I don't deny failed in this case. I suppose my point, though, was that I'm not sure it's very helpful to just constantly criticise social workers as being inept. What's your solution? Just keep sacking them? Perhaps we should sack them all? When did you last hear a success story in social work? When did you last see a social worker mentioned in positive light in the press? The truth is, these jobs are hard. Sometimes patients die because doctors make mistakes.. that happens a lot more often than you might think. Every year in August the new batch of F1s start and deaths increase. Do we demand a whole load of doctors are immediately sacked? Clearly not. Sometimes these judgements are difficult, and sometimes the wrong decision will be made despite the best of intentions. That doesn't *always* mean that the people involved were incompetent.

You excuse what happened as mistakes, failings and ineptitude. Outrageous!

A mistake is something accidental, where they were trying their best but made unintentional errors. That clearly isn't what happened in this case!

They knowingly ignored children being raped! This isn't a mistake, it was intentional and excusing it as failings and mistakes is so far off the mark to be laughable.

This isn't good enough. They facilitated the rape of children! It's impossible to over state how wrong and serious that is. I'm surprised it isn't actually against the law so losing their jobs isn't good enough they should be having questions to answer to the law, who also ignored these crimes by the way!

Rape of kids was allowed to continue because racial 'sensitivities' trump all, including the right of English children not to be raped! Again it is impossibe to overexaggerate how twisted and wrong that is.

This status quo is what the new insideous left wing multiculturalist ideology has created; what more evidence does anyone need to see that it is pure evil??

This outrageous unjust UKIP foster case is another example of the same sick mindset at work attacking freedom and causing harm in the promotion of an ideology.

(edited 11 years ago)

Reply 72

Pkysam