Why do some English people still look down on Ireland?

Original post by Frostyjoe

Don't let politicans speak for the people of Northern Ireland. If we had a chance to vote many of those things would be legalised.

Who votes in the DUP every election then?

Reply 45

l'insegnante

14

Original post by macromicro

It's true that Northern Ireland has been struggling economically and politically for some time. There are very few graduate jobs and there is an on going religious feud since the troubles. The whole place is steeped in religion which is why people from England - which is increasingly atheist and secular - view it suspiciously. You can't drive down a road without flags on lampposts and parades happening. Police officers have to keep their jobs secret out of fear of being blown up in the religious war, and outside of Belfast - which is a small city anyway - there are no other options for young, ambitious graduates. And to top it all off the arts scene is dead. I view it as a step back in time - a place that hasn't developed as quickly due to being cut off from the mainland. There are far better places to live in the UK.

That's a massive exaggeration.
Yes there's flags and yes there's parades. But you can drive own plenty of roads without encountering any of that. There isn't parades all year long.

There isn't a 'religious war' going on. There is only some trouble relating to a nationalist and unionist fued. Political not religious. There is no real threat of violence in people's every day life's. There's loads of cross community schemes brining people together as well as integrated schools.

Londonderry is the second city which has oppertunities as does the rest of NI. Our cities are smaller because we are only a tiny country.

There's been a massive boom in jobs to do with film and TV as people increasingly choose to film here.

Reply 46

Original post by l'insegnante

That's a massive exaggeration.
Yes there's flags and yes there's parades. But you can drive own plenty of roads without encountering any of that. There isn't parades all year long.

There are thousands of parades per year - so many in fact that a Parades Commission had to be created - all these do is continue the religious feud.

There isn't a 'religious war' going on. There is only some trouble relating to a nationalist and unionist fued. Political not religious. There is no real threat of violence in people's every day life's. There's loads of cross community schemes brining people together as well as integrated schools.

"Some trouble" - that's just about the greatest understatement of NI's religious conflict. If you think some trouble means that riots occur if a flag is flown less per year then you are simply immune to the reality of the situation. That riot cost over £20 million and injured over a 100 officers. PSNI have to be heavily trained in anti-terrorism and carry firearms - they are completely different to any force in the rest of the UK for obvious reasons. There were 67 legitimate bomb scares in 2014/15.

Religion and politics are synonymous in NI - you're arguing semantics. People vote based on their religion; they go to a certain school based on their religion, they favour policies based on their religion. It is ingrained into their very culture and needs to be changed if political and social progression is desired.

Londonderry is the second city which has oppertunities as does the rest of NI. Our cities are smaller because we are only a tiny country.

There's been a massive boom in jobs to do with film and TV as people increasingly choose to film here.

Londonderry is a dead zone for graduates. The starting salaries for graduate employers in NI pay signficantly less than those same employers in England. I worked at PwC and BDO in Manchester and London respectively. My starting salary was £25k and £28k respectively. My starting salary if I had gone to Belfast? £17k!

The place is being held back by a bygone generation of homophobic, sexist, and dogmatic theists.

(edited 8 years ago)

Reply 47

trustmeimlying1

20

Original post by PsychoD

Joyce's dubliners wholly epitomises my view of Ireland. I see it as very religious and unexceptional- nothing draws me there. Not saying it's poor, stagnant or centuries behind, only that I can't think of anything they've achieved from the top of my head.

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lel

Reply 48

Original post by macromicro

Do you mean GDP per capita? And you probably mean North East England. There and Wales are roughly the same as NI and are the two least economically developed and most avoided regions in the UK. So yes I would agree they are comparable, which is a problem.

You've said you could argue it... but you haven't. When I was over there the PSNI were a constant topic. Terrorism is global and of course has affected NI massively. Their terror threat is high.

No there aren't. Real wages are the lowest of the UK, along with Wales. There is no arts scene - a TV show being filmed there doesn't constitute a scene! Have a look at Glasgow or Bristol.

Politics in NI are notoriously backwards due to over 80% of the population being Christian. They are still living in the Dark Ages. For example, abortion and gay marriage are still not legalised - the only place in the UK.

Actually I do. I did a lot of research on NI for part of my thesis examining the adverse hangover of religion. I also lived there for 6 months in Belfast/Comber.

That these places are avoided in preference of South England isn't so much that they are third world countries within the UK or underdeveloped, it's that South England/London is an international economic powerhouse with a superior standard of living than most of the developed world.
The wages are lower comparatively, but so is the cost of living.

There is clearly no religious war, you did a thesis on the region and you state that the PSNI have to hide out of fear of religiously motivated murder. That is not only untrue, but it doesn't even make sense.

Saying that positions on abortion and gay marriages are a measure of a societies 'backwardness'. It isn't, these are controversial issues among many people, including atheists. Taking an elitist approach and calling their positions medieval because it isn't the same as yours or blaming it on the fact they are X% christian is.......... well there's more than one logical fallacy in there. The person who marked your paper must have been merciful is this is the measure of you skills.

I would bet of all the recent police officers and service men and civilians killed in the past decade due to terrorism, proportional to populations, NI has probably seen less killed than much of the UK. Specifically London, the developed area as you suggest.
Likewise with terrorist attacks, both in scale and frequency. I could go fact checking, buts it's not worth it, it's blatantly obvious that London is/would show to be statistically more under threat and dangerous not just for police, but for civilians. than NI. And unlike NI, the terrorists there are religiously motivated.

You lived there for 6 months, you wrote a thesis, arguments from authority, and poor authority at that. Judging by your comments on the 'religious war' it must have been a pretty poor paper.

The arts being 'dead' is entirely subjective. That perhaps one of the most popular currently running television shows in the Western world is based there suggests that it isn't.

Reply 49

Original post by PsychoD

Joyce's dubliners wholly epitomises my view of Ireland. I see it as very religious and unexceptional- nothing draws me there. Not saying it's poor, stagnant or centuries behind, only that I can't think of anything they've achieved from the top of my head.

Posted from TSR Mobile

Titanic.......... that sank though lol.

Aren't there like a load of poets and authors that came from Ireland ?

'Goes goggling'

Ironically, the first submarine can be linked among Irish accolades. Color photography, cure for leprosy, guided missiles, and helicopters......... not sure I trust this website though.

http://www.irishcentral.com/business/technology/top-10-surprising-irish-inventions-92890604-237788251.html

Reply 50

Original post by HanSoloLuck

That these places are avoided in preference of South England isn't so much that they are third world countries within the UK or underdeveloped, it's that South England/London is an international economic powerhouse with a superior standard of living than most of the developed world.

I didn't say South England. Last time I checked the North West isn't in South England nor is Edinburgh or the West Midlands. I didn't say it's a third world country (what a ridiculous claim!).

There is clearly no religious war, you did a thesis on the region and you state that the PSNI have to hide out of fear of religiously motivated murder. That is not only untrue, but it doesn't even make sense.

There is a religious conflict that has been going on for decades.

PSNI officers keep their occupation and home location quiet and are trained to check for explosive devices under their cars and in their homes. I don't know why that doesn't make sense to you. I have had long discussions with a PSNI officer over this very issue.

Saying that positions on abortion and gay marriages are a measure of a societies 'backwardness'. It isn't, these are controversial issues among many people, including atheists. Taking an elitist approach and calling their positions medieval because it isn't the same as yours or blaming it on the fact they are X% christian is.......... well there's more than one logical fallacy in there.

It's the definition of backwards. The modern West has progressed in pursuit of equality and fairness. It is backwards to be against abortion and same-sex marriage in 2016. You are very much in the minority with your views on this matter and there is nothing illogical or elitist about my claim. I fail to see how wanting greater equality can possibly be elitist. You have a twisted and biased sense of morality.

The fact that there is an overwhelming Christian majority is of course the reason why they hold these views on gay marriage and abortion - they are directly derived from their religious beliefs. That's not a logical fallacy. You must have the deductive reasoning of a potato to not understand that.

I would bet of all the recent police officers and service men and civilians killed in the past decade due to terrorism, proportional to populations, NI has probably seen less killed than much of the UK. Specifically London, the developed area as you suggest.
Likewise with terrorist attacks, both in scale and frequency. I could go fact checking, buts it's not worth it, it's blatantly obvious that London is/would show to be statistically more under threat and dangerous not just for police, but for civilians. than NI. And unlike NI, the terrorists there are religiously motivated.

Where have I said that NI has been a victim of more Islamic terrorism than London? Of course the terrorists in NI are religiously motivated - how can you not know something as simple as that? Your ignorance is quite shocking.

You lived there for 6 months, you wrote a thesis, arguments from authority, and poor authority at that. Judging by your comments on the 'religious war' it must have been a pretty poor paper.

It got me a distinction and funding for my PhD but thanks for your concern.

The arts being 'dead' is entirely subjective. That perhaps one of the most popular currently running television shows in the Western world is based there suggests that it isn't.

It's not subjective at all - it's very easy to measure in fact, which is why places like Glasgow and Bristol have very good reputations for the arts.

(edited 8 years ago)

Reply 51

Original post by macromicro

Of course the terrorists in NI are religiously motivated - how can you not know something as simple as that? Your ignorance is quite shocking.

.

This I have to hear.

Their motivations are political, they don't target people based on religion. They aren't deriving anything from their religion that calls them to terrorism. the two sides are represented as 'nationalist' and 'unionist'. Not Catholic and Protestant. The police have to check their cars, not because of their religion, because they are representatives of an occupational foreign government to the terrorists.

How on earth can you say they are religiously motivated ?
What university gave you a distinction for this dribble ?

(edited 8 years ago)

Reply 52

PaulACP

3

I'm from Belfast. Northern Ireland can be OK in many ways, but overall it is a backward shithole with no opportunities and vile politics that show no sign of change.

There are genuinely nice and intelligent people there, but they're surrounded by a majority of utter idiots. Same in most countries tho I guess.

Reply 53

l'insegnante

14

Original post by macromicro

There are thousands of parades per year - so many in fact that a Parades Commission had to be created - all these do is continue the religious feud. .

Yes there are thousands of parades a year but they are not all by the same organisation. The number of parades includes parades such as the St Patrick's parades across the country for St Patrick's day; Halloween Carnival parades; Gay Pride Parades; Girls Brigade and Boy's Brigade parades; youth organisation parades and hundreds of other parades which are not one bit contentious.
In fact of the c.4000 parades in 2011-2012 only 213 were considers contentious nationalist/unionist parades.
Furthermore, most loyal order parades only happen in marching season between April and August. A lot of such parades are small ones where bands march through there local area where they are from and carry out practices etc. Furthermore, the 12th of July Battle of the Boyne commemoration parade drums up the number slightly more due to there being multiple 'main' parades on the day rather than one such as happens with the Relief of Derry parade. Moreover, a lot of the loyalist parades are return home parades for the local bands after one of the main parades in July/August.

It's not as though parades are happening every single day and disrupting daily life and you seem to like to put it across.

"Some trouble" - that's just about the greatest understatement of NI's religious conflict. If you think some trouble means that riots occur if a flag is flown less per year then you are simply immune to the reality of the situation. That riot cost over £20 million and injured over a 100 officers. PSNI have to be heavily trained in anti-terrorism and carry firearms - they are completely different to any force in the rest of the UK for obvious reasons. There were 67 legitimate bomb scares in 2014/15. .

Yes that was one riot, but it doesn't happen every day.

There is only some trouble. We aren't living in the troubles any more where there is wide spread bombing and attacks etc.

Any trouble that there is now is usually confined to certain areas meanwhile many parts of the country see no trouble.

Yes there is bomb scares and the odd shooting. However, its less about the political conflict now and the bombing and shootings are usually a short of vigilante justice used on drug dealers etc. The rest are sporadic attacks on police which are, whilst dangerous and horrible, usually unsuccessful and not as common as they were during the real troubles.

Religion and politics are synonymous in NI - you're arguing semantics. People vote based on their religion; they go to a certain school based on their religion, they favour policies based on their religion. It is ingrained into their very culture and needs to be changed if political and social progression is desired..

There are plenty Catholics that vote unionist. Plenty of Protestants who vote nationalist, particularity SDLP.

And fyi Catholic schools have protestants and the conventionally protestant state schools have Catholic pupils. Furthermore, there is also integrated education.

You're statements are very stereotyped and don't actually reflect the majority of people in Northern Ireland

Londonderry is a dead zone for graduates. The starting salaries for graduate employers in NI pay signficantly less than those same employers in England. I worked at PwC and BDO in Manchester and London respectively. My starting salary was £25k and £28k respectively. My starting salary if I had gone to Belfast? £17k!

The place is being held back by a bygone generation of homophobic, sexist, and dogmatic theists.

The cost of living in Northern Ireland is lower than London and Manchester so it makes sense the salary would be lower.

That last statement of yours is simply laughable.

Reply 54

PaulACP

3

that last statement isn't laughable. it is correct.

Reply 55

Original post by HanSoloLuck

Their motivations are political, they don't target people based on religion. They aren't deriving anything from their religion that calls them to terrorism. the two sides are represented as 'nationalist' and 'unionist'. Not Catholic and Protestant.

It's both, as I said. Have a read of this:

https://whistlinginthewind.org/2012/05/23/religion-as-a-cause-of-war-in-ireland/

The police have to check their cars, not because of their religion, because they are representatives of an occupational foreign government to the terrorists.

Again, it's both.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-17573585

Reply 56

Original post by macromicro

It's both, as I said. Have a read of this:

https://whistlinginthewind.org/2012/05/23/religion-as-a-cause-of-war-in-ireland/

Again, it's both.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-17573585

Up until now we have just been stating apposing views. And this is what you do when i ask you to explain your position on something, post a link to some website so it can do it for you.

What a joke, you clearly went cherry picking for those articles instead of telling me the reasons why you believe what you believe, intellectually dishonest and disgusting. I'm not clicking on the links either, explain your position or don't.

What's the betting you just begin paraphrasing the articles, if explaining yourself at all.

Reply 57

Original post by l'insegnante

Yes there are thousands of parades a year but they are not all by the same organisation. The number of parades includes parades such as the St Patrick's parades across the country for St Patrick's day; Halloween Carnival parades; Gay Pride Parades; Girls Brigade and Boy's Brigade parades; youth organisation parades and hundreds of other parades which are not one bit contentious.
In fact of the c.4000 parades in 2011-2012 only 213 were considers contentious nationalist/unionist parades.
Furthermore, most loyal order parades only happen in marching season between April and August. A lot of such parades are small ones where bands march through there local area where they are from and carry out practices etc. Furthermore, the 12th of July Battle of the Boyne commemoration parade drums up the number slightly more due to there being multiple 'main' parades on the day rather than one such as happens with the Relief of Derry parade. Moreover, a lot of the loyalist parades are return home parades for the local bands after one of the main parades in July/August.

None of that regurgitation refutes the fact that thousands of religious parades occur. Whether they are contentious or not is beside the point - they have a strong influence on others and sustain the conflict indirectly and directly.

It's not as though parades are happening every single day and disrupting daily life and you seem to like to put it across.

More than anywhere else in the UK.

Yes that was one riot, but it doesn't happen every day.

It was a series of devastating riots only four years ago and highlighted how severe the problem still is.

Yes there is bomb scares and the odd shooting. However, its less about the political conflict now and the bombing and shootings are usually a short of vigilante justice used on drug dealers etc. The rest are sporadic attacks on police which are, whilst dangerous and horrible, usually unsuccessful and not as common as they were during the real troubles.

You keep comparing everything to the troubles when I have never done so. All I have done is describe the security threats that PSNI have to deal with today relative to the rest of the UK's forces, which are completely different.

And fyi Catholic schools have protestants and the conventionally protestant state schools have Catholic pupils. Furthermore, there is also integrated education.

http://www.theguardian.com/news/datablog/2012/nov/24/religious-divide-northern-ireland-schools

The cost of living in Northern Ireland is lower than London and Manchester so it makes sense the salary would be lower.

Belfast is not cheaper than Manchester by £8,000 per year. Not even close. I lived in Belfast now I live in Manchester so I have a fairly good idea.

[

That last statement of yours is simply laughable.

Translation: you're an indoctrinated Christian and this bias and self-delusion means you don't understand the damage that your religion has done to your own country.

Are you against abortion and same-sex marriage?

Reply 58

Original post by HanSoloLuck

Up until now we have just been stating apposing views. And this is what you do when i ask you to explain your position on something, post a link to some website so it can do it for you.

What a joke, you clearly went cherry picking for those articles instead of telling me the reasons why you believe what you believe, intellectually dishonest and disgusting. I'm not clicking on the links either, explain your position or don't.

What's the betting you just begin paraphrasing the articles, if explaining yourself at all.

What a bizarre response.

My views are derived from research - they didn't appear from thin air. Those two links will help you do some research of your own as currently you are exceptionally ignorant.

Reply 59