25% of Junior Doctors Leave

I recall it is because the EWTD is limiting F1/F2's training a lot, so they don't feel ready to go onto further training in, for example surgery, where lots of contact hours are important to practice techniques etc. They go abroad to train, Australia iirc, because they just don't feel like they know enough to go onto speciality training. It was in the news earlier in the month/September along with all the EWTD stuff. I'll try and find some articles.

e: I have all the articles printed off but I can't find them online. Guess you are just going to have to trust me. :o:

(edited 13 years ago)

Reply 42

Caponester

10

innerhollow

Doctors have no right to complain about salaries.

Of course they do. What is this? The police state?

Reply 43

Daveo

16

Original post by _lynx_

I haven't actually shadowed a radiologist, but there was a point during my w/e where the doctor I was shadowing went to seek advice from one. From speaking to doctors, it appears that they spend a lot of their time in a dark room and patient contact seems minimal. But of course, putting the satire aside, I knew there would be more to it obviously.

Precisely, "I don't know whats going on, lets get a scan and ask the radiologist."

They are the speciality who do most of the diagnosing these days :wink:

Reply 44

Renal

17

Original post by hypocriticaljap

Doctors complaining about poor pay.
I've seen everything now!

Mate, when you're looking after some horribly sick people - and loosing - with ****ty senior support and being told you're a **** by everyone you meet, a £6/hour is pretty poor compensation.

You try reassuring a demented old lady that the nurses aren't trying to kill her.
You try putting a venflon into a chemo punter in the dark.
You try asking someone if they ever thought about whether they'd to die with their ribs broken and a bit of PVC down their throat.
You try telling someone that they're going to die and that there's nothing that can be done about it.
You try telling someone that their mum or dad is dead.
You try telling someone desperate to hear that their loved one is going to be okay that you're just not sure.
You try jumping up and down on a kids chest just so you can tell mum and dad that you did everything you could.
You try doing that at the same time.
You come back and tell me that minimum wage is what you want to earn for that.
**** right off.

(I just want to be clear that I have done all of the above, and lots more, in a single 13 hour shift as a houseman)

(edited 13 years ago)

Reply 45

OP

Original post by Renal

Mate, when you're looking after some horribly sick people - and loosing - with ****ty senior support and being told you're a **** by everyone you meet, a £6/hour is pretty poor compensation.

You try reassuring a demented old lady that the nurses aren't trying to kill her.
You try putting a venflon into a chemo punter in the dark.
You try asking someone if they ever thought about whether they'd to die with their ribs broken and a bit of PVC down their throat.
You try telling someone that they're going to die and that there's nothing that can be done about it.
You try telling someone that their mum or dad is dead.
You try telling someone desperate to hear that their loved one is going to be okay that you're just not sure.
You try jumping up and down on a kids chest just so you can tell mum and dad that you did everything you could.
You try doing that at the same time.
You come back and tell me that minimum wage is what you want to earn for that.
**** right off.

(I just want to be clear that I have done all of the above, and lots more, in a single 13 hour shift as a houseman)

This is what, from my position as an applicant, I think is wrong with medical admissions. Most applicants aren't aware of realities like that, instead the focus tends to be on grades and other seemingly irrelevant stuff.

Reply 46

Original post by Organ

This is what, from my position as an applicant, I think is wrong with medical admissions. Most applicants aren't aware of realities like that, instead the focus tends to be on grades and other seemingly irrelevant stuff.

According to the Newcastle admissions tutor, the #2 reason why people drop out (#1 being that they can't cope with the work) is because they realise they don't like sick people. Which is a pretty pathetic reason tbqh.

Reply 47

OP

Original post by Beska

According to the Newcastle admissions tutor, the #2 reason why people drop out (#1 being that they can't cope with the work) is because they realise they don't like sick people. Which is a pretty pathetic reason tbqh.

It makes me wonder what exactly some people's perception of being a doctor is?

Tbh, knowing that the pay isn't actually that great sort of makes me happy - at least the dicks who went in to it for money won't be satisfied.

Reply 48

Original post by Organ

It makes me wonder what exactly some people's perception of being a doctor is?

No wonder admissions are so anal about work experience! I have no idea how somebody can get through writing a personal statement and attending an interview before realising what they are actually getting themselves in for.

Reply 49

OP

Original post by Beska

No wonder admissions are so anal about work experience! I have no idea how somebody can get through writing a personal statement and attending an interview before realising what they are actually getting themselves in for.

I think it's difficult to know exactly what it will be like - but not coping with ****ing sick people :teehee:

I think some of the problem is that people who are good at science at school can get shoehorned into applying for medicine, when they would probably be better of doing something else. Or people's parents can push them into it :sigh:

Reply 50

HKSR

2

Original post by Tetanus

What sort of wage is it? I've genuinely never looked into it :erm:

Doctors get a MASSIVE salary...

Reply 51

OP

Original post by HKSR

Doctors get a MASSIVE salary...

What sort of doctor?

Reply 52

Kinkerz

Original post by Beska

No wonder admissions are so anal about work experience! I have no idea how somebody can get through writing a personal statement and attending an interview before realising what they are actually getting themselves in for.

Are you honestly that naive? You think a couple of weeks work experience and bit of research enlightens you to what you're actually getting yourself in for?

I'm at medical school and I'm not 100% sure about what I'm getting (I've got?) myself in for, and I'd wager most medics feel the same (we can possibly make clinical students exempt here).

Sure, you can make yourself more aware, but do you genuinely feel like you know exactly what you're getting yourself in for?

Any idiot can deduce it's not going to be like Scrubs/House/ER/Grey's Anatomy/whatever.

Reply 53

I've got something written down that was given to applicants at an open day (can't remember what uni, might have been Newcastle again) about salaries:

F1: 32793
F2: 40694
SpT: 43464 - 68000
Con: 73403 - 173683
GP: 80000 - 120000
Salaried GP: 52463 - 79167

All figures in GBP.

e: I think these are averages rather than the basic salary.

(edited 13 years ago)

Reply 54

Original post by Kinkerz

Are you honestly that naive? You think a couple of weeks work experience and bit of research enlightens you to what you're actually getting yourself in for?

I'm at medical school and I'm not 100% sure about what I'm getting (I've got?) myself in for, and I'd wager most medics feel the same (we can possibly make clinical students exempt here).

Sure, you can make yourself more aware, but do you genuinely feel like you know exactly what you're getting yourself in for?

Any idiot can deduce it's not going to be like Scrubs/House/ER/Grey's Anatomy/whatever.

No, I'm not. It must give some indication otherwise they wouldn't insist that applicants did work experience. Work experience will probably give you the best indication of what you're getting yourself in for sort of working as a clinical student/F1.

e: My comment was on the fact that people drop out because "they don't like sick people". My point was that even a little work experience shows that doctors have to deal with sick people.

(edited 13 years ago)

Reply 55

Kinkerz

Original post by Beska

No, I'm not. It must give some indication otherwise they wouldn't insist that applicants did work experience. Work experience will probably give you the best indication of what you're getting yourself in for sort of working as a clinical student/F1.

They insist on work experience because it's the only real option, not because it's a particularly good option.

My point is that an applicant/early medical student can't really know what it's like* and that it's naive and, in some way, arrogant to profess that you do.

*unless the said applicant/early medical student has had experience in the matter (i.e. working in the healthcare system for some years etc.).

Original post by Beska

e: My comment was on the fact that people drop out because "they don't like sick people". My point was that even a little work experience shows that doctors have to deal with sick people.

You don't need work experience to know that dealing with sick people is mandatory in the vast majority of medical specialties.

And observing a doctor/other staff dealing with sick people is quite substantially different to dealing with sick people yourself.

(edited 13 years ago)

Reply 56

Original post by Kinkerz

They insist on work experience because it's the only real option, not because it's a particularly good option.

My point is that an applicant/early medical student can't really know what it's like* and that it's naive and, in some way, arrogant to profess that you do.

*unless the said applicant/early medical student has had experience in the matter (i.e. working in the healthcare system for some years etc.).

I agree. It is pretty much the only way an applicant can get any "insight" into the profession, for better or for worse.

I wouldn't call it arrogant if an applicant/early medic thought they knew all about the profession. I'd say they are in for a big shock when it comes to their clinical years. :p:

Reply 57

W.H.T

Original post by Carpediemxx

Being a newly qualified doctor isnt as glamarous as it is made out to be, especially by the media....in many respects it is a ****** job. You spend 5 or 6 years training and working hard at medical school to graduate and in many cases get a foundation training post somewhere you dont want to be. As for developing your surgical training for example, it is increasingly difficult to get the time in theratre required to satifsy training posts and the road is long and hard, too much so for some people

The wage is *****

Many people do go abroad and i think that number will increase significantly in the future, other countries offer their professionals so much more value for money.
Like the article said, however, many take gap years or enter other areas of " medicine " especially managerial and political areas

But thats just like any other job when you're a young graduate. After a while, doctors earn well above the national average, right?

Besides, theres more to life than money. Doctors should understand that principle better than most others :wink:

(edited 13 years ago)

Reply 58

Arenas123

9

Original post by Captshiznit

Because lots of dellusioned 18y/o's go to med school thinking it's going to be like scrubs. And they can walk around with a cane popping pain meds being a dick to patients.

Do you not think that if someone as smart as House actually existed they would be allowed to be an ass though ? I don't mean to the extent of some of the stuff on the show but that's just t.v.

If I was suffering from something that was difficult to diagnose and some manager walked in and told me that there was a doctor that could help but he was an absolute ass and would probably insult me and say insensitive things but he was a genius. I'd gladly be his patient.

I'm not a medical student or potential one so go easy on the neg rep :wink:

Reply 59

_lynx_