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Reply 80
Original post by &#1052
Depends on what you mean by "intolerance". People get raved at if what they say isn't vaugely in accordance with conventional and generic opinion. If people didn't have a right to express opinions they might not express in real life the internet would be a boring place.


If you truly believe in what you are espousing, then surely you would say it regardless of conventional and generic opinion (whatever that is)... If your conviction is not that strong, then you will not.
Reply 81
somethingbeautiful
It's the same as it's always been. I think that as one gets older one becomes more aware of how ridiculous people can be...


Maybe this is correct for me :smile:
Reply 82
Idiot-Finder
This is the internet.


So true, so true... in general it gives people the belief that they can say anything regardless of how boorish etc... while cloaked in anonymity...
pendragon
Implicit in your question is the conflation of criticism of a religion or ideology with racism. No one has to tolerate fascism, communism or any particular religion or religio-political ideology if by tolerate you mean refrain from expressing their objections to it or critcising it or its adherents. You have got yourself in this mess, if you stifle legitimate and natural discourse you push uneducated people incapable of articulating their grievances in a thoughtful way towards ignorant extremism and even unthinking racism.


So what do you suggest? The problem I find with this sort of thing is that it seems to be impossible to throw someone out of an illogically held belief. debate wont work, and you can't force people to think what you want, but similarly you can't allow such an undercurrent of racism to build up.
Just a lot of people that think they know a lot more than they do and feel like everyone else should know and follow nothing but the kind of sensationalist tripe that gets belched out of so-called "mainstream" news.
vnupe
So true, so true... in general it gives people the belief that they can say anything regardless of how boorish etc... while cloaked in anonymity...


But that is the internet in general. TSR might appear worse because it is full of young people still fully developing there idea's of the world. It's nothing that I don't see on any of the forums I have been on in the past. If anything the internet shows peoples true feelings, where they are happy to be honest without society looking down upon them for there own views.
Reply 86
Seven_Three
You're boring and stupid mate, your views are so stupid as to be offensive. And you're too think to even realise that.

Only idiots like you think it is wrong everyone doesn't agree with them, ever thought of that?


heheheh Have you read my posts... I am extremely tolerant of other people's view, I simply ask for clarification.. I take umbrage when people espouse their opinions/pov as fact... Again with the name calling, you are continually proving my point about intolerance on here... hehehehe

I don't agree with you so I am how do you say it: 'An old man who is boring and stupid whose views are offensive and am too think (think you meant thick) to realise it'... does that about sum it up? SMH
Reply 87
Since when has intolerance of religion been a bad thing?

And if you're offended, then Boo hoo! Deal with it. If a reasonable argument means you have to show a degree of "intolerance" then so be it. The fact that you may be "offended" does nothing to undermine it.
Reply 88
TSR is filed with closet racists/xenophobes.
Reply 89
This should be part og the TSR history wiki page. Religion bashing is a specialty here. But you get used to it. It is the only thing that makes this place interesting.
Reply 90
pendragon
Implicit in your question is the conflation of criticism of a religion or ideology with racism. No one has to tolerate fascism, communism or any particular religion or religio-political ideology if by tolerate you mean refrain from expressing their objections to it or critcising it or its adherents. You have got yourself in this mess, if you stifle legitimate and natural discourse you push uneducated people incapable of articulating their grievances in a thoughtful way towards ignorant extremism and even unthinking racism.


I have not gotten myself into any mess.. criticism of religion or ideology of racism is good, because there is a discourse. Discourse is good, because that means there is dialogue.. dialogue is very good because it is the antithesis of ignorance. I am not opposed to people having disparate views... that is their right... neither am I opposed to people expressing their objections to or criticising it or its adherents.

I am opposed however to people being intolerant out of fear and ignorance.. that is something quite different from discourse and criticism...
Reply 91
Suetonius
Since when has intolerance of religion been a bad thing?

And if you're offended, then Boo hoo! Deal with it. If a reasonable argument means you have to show a degree of "intolerance" then so be it. The fact that you may be "offended" does nothing to undermine it.


You sir, are awesome.
Reply 92
hungryaardvark
So what do you suggest? The problem I find with this sort of thing is that it seems to be impossible to throw someone out of an illogically held belief. debate wont work, and you can't force people to think what you want, but similarly you can't allow such an undercurrent of racism to build up.


All I can suggest is dialogue and familiarity.. when something or someone becomes more familiar then it is less threatening...
Reply 93
Idiot-Finder
But that is the internet in general. TSR might appear worse because it is full of young people still fully developing there idea's of the world. It's nothing that I don't see on any of the forums I have been on in the past. If anything the internet shows peoples true feelings, where they are happy to be honest without society looking down upon them for there own views.


fair enough I.F. fair enough... I see your point...
vnupe
heheheh Have you read my posts... I am extremely tolerant of other people's view, I simply ask for clarification.. I take umbrage when people espouse their opinions/pov as fact... Again with the name calling, you are continually proving my point about intolerance on here... hehehehe

I don't agree with you so I am how do you say it: 'An old man who is boring and stupid whose views are offensive and am too think (think you meant thick) to realise it'... does that about sum it up? SMH


You aren't asking anyone to clarify any opinon, you aren't disagreeing with anyone or any sentiment. Whos opinon and what opinion are you asking for clarifuication of? You are asking people to justify themselves, that is offensive and that isn't debate, like I said you are too stupid to realise that aren't you?

Also lol at being 46 on a student website and complaining to teenagers on a saturday afternoon, :toofunny: I'm sure you are happy with your life and your views :toofunny:. Most of these people aren't even half your age and they can put across a more intelligent point than you can.

You stupid socialist dinosaurs need to die out already tbh.
Suetonius
Since when has intolerance of religion been a bad thing?

And if you're offended, then Boo hoo! Deal with it. If a reasonable argument means you have to show a degree of "intolerance" then so be it. The fact that you may be "offended" does nothing to undermine it.

I don't think the intolerance is the worrying thing. It's the lack of any proper challenge or argument. It's just half-regurgitated sound bytes. if they actually formed a proper debate then that would be fine, but they seem to be on here for the purpose of slagging people off with half-baked ideas.

(though I admit, mine probably aren't fully-baked either! :p:)
Reply 96
Suetonius
Since when has intolerance of religion been a bad thing?

And if you're offended, then Boo hoo! Deal with it. If a reasonable argument means you have to show a degree of "intolerance" then so be it. The fact that you may be "offended" does nothing to undermine it.



Just because religious intolerance has been socially acceptable (to a certain) degree does not make it right...

Isn't intolerance a bad thing in general? Suppose the next intolerance involved a demographic that you belonged too, how long would it take you and your kind to scream bloody murder?

As an evolved society (have we?) intolerance because it has a historical precedent should not and can not be accepted... don't we learn from our past mistakes?.. and I find it incredible that I would have to point this out...
Reply 97
Billinge1991
I don't think the intolerance is the worrying thing. It's the lack of any proper challenge or argument. It's just half-regurgitated sound bytes. if they actually formed a proper debate then that would be fine, but they seem to be on here for the purpose of slagging people off with half-baked ideas.

(though I admit, mine probably aren't fully-baked either! :p:)


That's not completely true. I mean, I frequently come across debates in the 'Theology' forum where people deploy a rational, fair and obvious refutation of Islamic doctrine (many of which I've engaged in myself), and are simply met with a "half-baked" response where the words "intolerant" and "offensive" are used in every other sentence (well boo-*******-hoo). Indeed, although I'm not reactionary, there are people like 'Don_Scott' on here who - although obviously misinformed - do occasionally deploy some sort of argument about homosexuality, patriotism etc. (not rational ones, but there you go). But the response is usually "that's offensive", as if those two words constitute an argument.
Suetonius
That's not completely true. I mean, I frequently come across debates in the 'Theology' forum where people deploy a rational, fair and obvious refutation of Islamic doctrine (many of which I've engaged in myself), and are simply met with a "half-baked" response where the words "intolerant" and "offensive" are used in every other sentence (well boo-*******-hoo). Indeed, although I'm not reactionary, there are people like 'Don_Scott' and 'Seven-Three' on here who - although obviously misinformed - do occasionally deploy some sort of argument about homosexuality, patriotism etc. (not rational ones, but there you go). But the response is usually "that's offensive", as if those two words constitute an argument.

Well, yeah I agree with you there. But I didn't think that was the point of this thread (I, obviously, don't just chuck around the word intolerant...I think it's use here to do with defining).

Yeah..."that's offensive" is such a convo killer. :s
Reply 99
vnupe
Just because religious intolerance has been socially acceptable (to a certain) degree does not make it right...


On the contrary, "religious intolerance" has been socially unacceptable for many years now. It has, for some strange reason, been given taboo status. I don't care if it's "socially acceptable" or not anyway. I don't deal with what are "societal norms" etc. I could be the only person on the planet who believes that intolerance of religious belief is a good thing, and I'd still believe it, so don't even think about playing the consensus game with me.

Isn't intolerance a bad thing in general? Suppose the next intolerance involved a demographic that you belonged too, how long would it take you and your kind to scream bloody murder?

As an evolved society (have we?) intolerance because it has a historical precedent should not and can not be accepted... don't we learn from our past mistakes?.. and I find it incredible that I would have to point this out...


It depends on what type of intolerance we're talking about. For example, working on first principles, intolerance of Islam isn't any worse than intolerance of fans of a certain football team, or even, considering the inbuilt dangers of fundamentalist Islamic theology, intolerance of a raging fascist or the BNP. In fact, considering the relative potency of both forces, I consider Islamic fundamentalism to be far more of a threat than the BNP are. People like George Galloway and UAF who will attack a miniature joke of a national fascist sect, but let Islamic fundamentalists off the hook are extremely misguided (or monstrous, as we know George to be).

So, in answer to your question, intolerance of ideas and doctrines are perfectly acceptable, and to let religion off the hook (giving it the infallibility that it claims to have) is inconsistent in the extreme. I don't give a crap if people are intolerant of atheism or libertarianism (or neoconservatism). I know that people are intolerant of them, and they have a right to be. I'll counter their intolerance with my own arguments, and I will usually have a slight intolerance of their viewpoints. The thing is, I will still respond respectfully to them if they are rational positions to take, and, most importantly, if they don't require the imposition of force on other people. But I certainly will be unhesitantly intolerant of those who claim to know the truth already, and assert that I must believe what they believe too, because God says so.

Intolerance of things such as inborn nature, however, is not at all rational (although I'll happily accept their right to say it; simply responding to them "you may offend people" is not a reasonable form of arguing). To equate intolerance of Islam (or even Muslims) to intolerance of a particular race, creed or sexual orientation is the most fraudulent piece of linguistic and political trickery that has ever been known. People talk about "Muslim communities" as though 'brown skin = Muslim'. How are the toddlers and infants who cannot make up their mind about their religion be considered "Muslims"? There's no such thing as a "Muslim community", it's simply a method of convenience for those who want to make it seem that criticising someone of faith is the same criticising someone who's been born with a particular skin colour.

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