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Are you proud to be English/British?

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There's a massive gap being nationalism and patriotism. Nationalism is stating that your ethnic group is superior to others and you don't want to associate with them. Patriotism and being proud of your nation is about pride in past generations and the people who have built this nation and the people who continue to.

There's absolutely nothing wrong with being patriotic.

In my notes from a lecture today I defined nationalism as wishing to see the advancement of your nation, whatever attributes it has, and patriotism as celebrating the attributes without necessarily seeking advancement.

It's a little narrow-minded to consider nationalism the same as ethnic supremacism. Nationalism is merely organising the state, or stateless nation, such that everyone has a civic duty to serve that single state's common advancement wherever it conflicts with their own.

Reply 61

IFondledAGibbon

It is a complete accident of birth where you're born, so why would I take pride in an accident?

If everyone in the world took this view and realised that their 'superior' race, country or religion is just an accident of birth and that we are all equals, there would be far fewer conflicts.

Reply 62

Celtic_Anthony

Original post by G8D

I'd rather not.

I've had this conversation with one of my friends and they still never managed to convince me it was any more than that.

Well, one of you is at fault then I'd say.

You seem to think this is some trick of theirs, that they produce a card and voila they delude themselves/others into thinking they were discriminated against. Of course, discrimination naturally brings people together into a community because it selects people on the ground of a common feature, the essence of a community. That discrimination did exist cannot be in doubt. That the communities formed by this pervade even after equality has been achieved surely cannot be surprising? It's quite a strong bond. The whole pride thing kicks in when they look into their history and see what people in their past have done for them. Whether it's merits "pride" is another point, but it's much more understandable in this context than in one where none of this is applicable.

Seems fairly simple, no? Whereas, if you're in the dominant group there's never been that experience. Which is why you get loads of middle-class Uni types being proud to be some part of some cause, be it socialism or the LCC...

Reply 63

Cold_sky

Id perhaps be a lot prouder if we didnt have chavs, drunken british holidaymakers and bumbling politicians dragging our image and name through the mud repeatedly.

Reply 64

L i b

Original post by devils18

My passport says British but ethnically speaking I'm not am I, that's what indigenous Brits would say. Is this what the OP is getting at?

Being British isn't really an ethnic identity. White people that originate in British Isles are spread out across the world and dominate the ethnic make-up of many countries, yet they are rarely called British - I doubt, for example, a white Australian or American several generations removed from the motherland would call himself British even though he shares a common ethnicity with a lot of us.

Anyway, ethnic identity is not what is being talked about here: we're talking about national identity, uniting around shared cultural links and civic participation, being involved in a community.

Original post by Margaret Thatcher

British is a nationality. English, Scottish, Welsh (and so on) are ethnicities.

There's no great ethnic division between those places. Indeed, several people who couldn't be more English have, say, Irish or Scottish names and vice-versa. Indeed, Scotland was composed of four national groups which could perhaps be called ethnic in the true sense: the Angles, the Britons, the Scots and the Picts. Ethnically speaking, arbitrary national identities like Scottishness and Englishness are just as cobbled-together as Britishness.

(edited 13 years ago)

Reply 65

DJkG.1

Original post by Celtic_Anthony

Well said. :top:

Original post by G8D

I'd rather not.

I've had this conversation with one of my friends and they still never managed to convince me it was any more than that.

Lol OK. I won't even try then. :tongue:

Reply 66

nirish-tom

Massively proud, and indeed priviliged to be British. Would hate to be English though!

Yes.

Was born in Germany due to my dad being stationed there in the RAF so i will always be proud to be born into this country.

I am not one of these EDL nutters who believe that we are superior to everyone, I can see that we are not a superpower any more. We used to have an empire, now we cant control anything. Its just a matter of fact.

Reply 69

Danny.

British? No. Scottish? Yes.

No.

Original post by ajp100688

No it's not. Nationalism is an extreme form of patriotism.

I see you've deviated from your definition of nationalism as a form of ethnic supremacy. Nationalism is not an 'extreme' version of anything, it's a set of beliefs (albeit diverse in nature) that ultimately lead one's cultural, political and economic preferences to one's nationality. It's not a case of "mild patriotism > extreme nationalism". Patriotism is simply a type of application of nationalism, which manifests itself as undue pride in one's nationality.

Nationalism - the policy or doctrine of asserting the interests of one's own nation, viewed as separate from the interests of other nations or the common interests of all nations.

Finally, you've actually admitted that your 'ethnic supremacy' definition of nationalism was a load of rubbish. This is indeed nationalism, or at least one form of it.

You can be patriotic and still be entirely seperate from that definition.

Are you blind or just born stupid? Patriotism is the embodiment of 'asserting the interests of one's own nation', in this case, pride and a sense of worth in 'one own's nation'. You getting the jist?

Just because I identify with and admire Winston Churchill

You're free to identify with whoever you like. That won't stop you from being an idiot, but you're free to do so nonetheless.

and feel he's the personification of the British never die spirit

You mean a personification that you've tacked on to a large populous for no reason other to feel good about yourself through the achievements of others who have nothing to do with you? That's right.

does not mean I'm asserting any kind of nationalism.

Patriotism is a manifestation of nationalism.

Nor does it mean I'm belittling any other group of people,

I never made any claims about 'belittling other groups', I made claims that you are attaining your sense of worth from something that you did not achieve, or earn. Which I (and many others) consider to be incredibly pathetic.

I can think Churchill is great and admire him at the same time

That's fair enough. Many people do. But nobody's talking about Churchill here. We're talking about your inability to separate your insecurities from the proverbial blanket that is your nationality.

I can read Rousseau and consider him a part of a great French tradition of philosophy.

Irrelevant.

In Europe nationality is very often tied up with ethnicity considering we all live in ethnic-nation states. It's only been post WW2 with massive immigration from former European colonies that European countries have developed a non-native population. Before WW2 to be British largely meant to be English, Scottish, Welsh or Irish (always very much debated, often the Irish were the victim of Anglo-Scottish nationalism) and was tied up explicitly with that.

This has nothing to do with our definition of nationality today, which is (seen as you seem to have forgotten), completely detached from one's ethnicity or ethnic roots. To imply that a black person has less of a British nationality than you, simply because they do not have so called 'English ancestry' is abhorrent, and is in fact a form of racial supremacy. However, my point is that nationality has nothing to do with ethnicity. Nationality and citizenship can be afforded to anyone, black or white, brown or....chinese. (No matter how much that may infuriate you).

Erm yes because as I said patriotism and nationalism are linked. Nationalism is literally an extreme virilent form of patriotism.

As I said, Nationalism isn't simply "Patriotism 2.0". And if you're stupid enough to think that, then there's not much point in debating with you until you've read a few more books. Nationalism, as I've said time and time again, has a definition of its own, much of which correlates with patriotism, which is simply a manifestation of nationalistic sentiment. The two are not just 'linked', one is a direct application of the other.

Jesus Christ get off your high horse. Your argument is the one lacking coherance as you've obviously had little experience with the political definition of the two. Go and read an introductory volume on political theory and see how it explicitly defines the difference between patriotism and nationalism, then come back and tell me I can't form a coherant argument.

Whilst I'm not arguing with you about reading books to gain knowledge, you do realise that anyone with google and two minutes on their hand would be able to provide solid definitions of Nationalism and Patriotism that would show that you have completely misguided views about the two?

You don't say, I would never have guessed your position on the issue from your previous paragraphs wittering on about how evil patriotism is.

Awh. Does it really bother you that much that I'm not pathetic enough to develop my sense of worth from my nationality? Poor shnookums. :rolleyes:

I'm not surprised you're not patriotic either,

Most people with two brain cells to rub together aren't patriotic either.

being an immigrant from another country (or descended from relatively recent immigrants) makes it hard to be.

I have provided perfectly objective reasons for why there's no merit it attaining my sense of self from something I did nothing to earn and you have yet to show otherwise.

I bet that you have favourable views of yours/your parents/your grandparent's home country though,

Not particularly. Time and time again, I claim that I am wholly British in the sense that whilst my father may have been born in another country, I have not. I have lived here, been raised here, worked here and paid taxes here and that makes me as British as any so called 'ethnically English' individual (not that I would deride him or her for their ethnicity). I have no reason to be proud of where I was born and I have no reason to express anything but indifference to the 'home country' of my father. (Equally obscene might I add, seen as my parents and grandparents may have been born elsewhere, but have attained British citizenship).

it's culture and it's traditions and that's a mild form of patriotism at the very least.

Erm. That's not patriotism moron. Expressing a 'favourable view' of a particular country, be it your own or another, is not 'patriotism', and after all. I am as British as you are. Even if I did express 'favourable views' towards the country of my ethnic origin, how or why would that make me a patriot?

Even if you don't like it, it's there. The preference for your native culture's social norms is mild patriotism, just not explicitly shown.

But it's not there? :hmmm:

I am indifferent towards my own nationality, as well as other nations and make any and all assessments of other cultures, practices, laws etc. based on objective analysis. I have no need to get sentimental every time i see a picture of the Queen and well up. And I find it pathetic that you do.

Most ethnic Englishmen have a common ancestor if you go back as far as Edward III. So if you say that these achievements have nothing to do with myself that's quite wrong.

They have nothing to do with you. They died before you, without knowing you or of your existence to be. The fact that you're so jaded that you latch on to their achievements is so warped that I would recommend you see a therapist. In what way is being related to someone (that has been dead for hundreds of years might I add) your achievement? Did you build an empire? No.

The community of the nation is an important point. We're all related in an abstract way and are much closer in blood, culture and society than say with the French or the Germans.

I agree that a sense of community is a natural and productive element to society. That in itself has nothing to do with an irrational tendency to attain your sense of self from your nationality simply because you think 'all these people are my blood brothers'.

If I wanted to make this a bit clearer: my great x3 grandfather fought in the Anglo-Sudanese Wars. He then came home and probably told stories of this to his son and shaped his son's thoughts on life and actions. This son would then go on to teach his son and his life experiences (along with his father's which have been passed down to him) would have shaped the way he looked after and taught his son and so on until it reaches myself.

None of this has anything to do with your personal record or speaks for your identity. They are consigned to the history books and are as arbitrary in relevance to you as they are to me.

My upbringing is the result of a culmulative cycle of my ancestor's experiences in life and how they used them to teach their children. You may say that the achievements of people in the past have nothing to do with me but that's utterly wrong. The actions of the past and their effects have subtly shaped the people who subtly shaped me. I am the product of the people that went before. I am British because of the past experience of the British people and my ancestors. In this way I can feel a patriotism and connection to say the war in the Sudan despite not having been born until nearly a century after it.

This is the biggest load of nonsense I have ever heard, and shows your commitment to deluding yourself more than anything. You are simply a product of chance, who did nothing to earn their so called 'personal history'. That's all you are. A product one arbitrary sperm cell that came out of the penis of your father, and just so happened to fertilize your mother's egg. It is chance and the fact you are this thick makes me believe that you are actually Stuart Baggs: the Brand.

As for saying I didn't 'learn' my nationality. Quite utterly wrong. The whole school system is imbued with British political thought, social thought and historical trends. What you learn in school and university fills you with the dominant ideas of your society and turns you into a citizen that largely follows those norms. That's why by and large people from different countries have different views and thoughts upon subjects because they come from different cultures and have been taught in different ways.

You do realise that the precursor of modern mathematics was the progress made by Indo-Arabs who coined contemporary numerology and algebra? That first conceptualised the number 0 and the decimal point?

My point being that being British is meaningless. It is an arbitrary fact.

Like I say you probably find it hard to associate with this because of your immigrant background. Nothing wrong with that but it makes it hard to be patriotic to something you only half associate with. If I moved to Australia, which I consider from time to time, I don't think I'd ever be a patriotic Aussie because I'm an outsider.

What an incredibly tenacious assessment of my background. You don't even know me, and seem to second guess my political views. Just because I am not so stunted in self esteem and insecure that I need to grovel at pictures of Winston Churchill (who was in my estimation, an idiot), does not equate me to somewhat of an outsider. People like you will be pushed to the fringes of society, until some day, nationalistic morons like you simply don't exist. I will welcome that day.

Reply 72

Locke54

Original post by jumpingjesusholycow

Blah

I'm not arguing this anymore as we'll be just locked in a cycle of endless quotation chains getting nowhere. All that I ask is that you pick up a basic introduction to political theory and read it's chapters on Nationalism/Patriotism and expand your knowledge on the subject beyond your own fairly radical ideas.

If we believe what you just said, then you have no strong preference for any type of culture, social norms or way or life. Nor do you believe that parents have any influence over their children, nor grandparents over their own children or their grandchildren. All of which is impossible, all humans have preferences and likes and dislikes. If you are truly as you say you are, you're a very boring and monotomous petrson. You also blatantly ignored my point that pride in one's own nation does not mean that one rejects the accomplishments of other nations with a whole lot of hand waving. The whole point of nationalism is placing the advancement of your own nation above others but if patriotism allows you to be proud of your nation's achievements while respecting others then it's not nationalism.

Also your idea that the education system isn't used to shape citizens in the way that British society and governments wants them to be is purely idiotic. Your argument that our numbering system is Indo-Arabic is an absolute strawman and means nothing. Are we to ignore the British history, British politics, concepts of law, views of family life, views on tolerance, views on the world, human rights etc etc. All of which are taught in British schools and from a British standpoint. Are we to ignore these because we use an Indo-Arabic numbering system and this of course means that governments and states do not use the education system to shape their citizenry because they use a foreign numbering system? get real.

As for the ethnic issue, I used it because it's the most prominent form of extreme nationalism in the modern day and the most common form of nationalism occuring. Very rarely does extreme nationalism manifest itself in other ways these days, except perhaps religious issues. I didn't mean that was the entire definition. I struggle to find a recent exampe of a multi-ethnic nation engaging in nationalist jingoism except perhaps if you want to spin the American invasion of Iraq in that way.

What is blatantly apparent from your response is that you're unable to accept a differing view and only believe your view as the truth. The fact that you seem to ascribe the veracity of your views to 'googling' the subjects just shows your lack of political knowledge. Read a proper political theory text and understand the political distinction between the two and not a layman's dictionary definition. Then if you still believe that patriotism and nationalism are inseperable than you're still wrong but at least I'll have some respect for your viewpoint.

(edited 13 years ago)

Reply 73

Luceria

I love England and Britain. :smile:

-Anglophile.

Reply 74

jumpingjesusholycow

Original post by ajp100688

Even more Blah

Since you've refused to address any of my points in any significant detail and dismissed them (namely because you weren't able to poise intellectual discussion on them), I will leave you with this; a note of irony.

We fought nationalists like you in WWII.

Reply 75

BambieWambie

Very much so,i'm glad i was born here and not in a 3rd world country.

Reply 76

quixoticduck

Original post by Artie

I agree, being a lion is much more preferable. Anyway, nobody really knows what 'being British' is anymore?? I can proudly say that I am proud to be, well, Welsh.

I prefer to see myself as British over just English. For example, I love Doctor Who and BBC programs which seem really British cus of all the Welsh and Scottish cast and crew =] The 'EnglishBC' would be much inferior to BritishBC imo.

A lot of welsh and scottish people are awesome, in fact a TON of my favourite people are Scottish (I'd visit there if I weren't a lazy traveller and disliking the cold but I'm sure I shall soon) and definitely don't seem as separated from me as even American people say (who I still don't feel very separate from). I can understand a welsh person seeing themselves as not british so much as smaller less dominant places tend to have that 'proudness' to them and thats cool but I def think england is better connected to other places =] I even like how in US TV they tend to group the 'brits' together more than we actually do here.

Reply 77

TWF

I'm proud not to be British, if that counts.

Reply 78

t0m1991

Meh, better than being French

Reply 79

Locke54

Original post by jumpingjesusholycow

You're an utter tit and indictive of everything that is wrong with modern Britain. I actually dealt with a great deal of what you said. Nice attempted trolling btw.