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The Israel-Palestine Conflict Mk.III
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Original post by imzir
and mass culling of innocent palestians is one of these conventions?
That is a good one sided look at the debate, well done!
I find this more and more perplexing every day, I must say. Israel provides little or no benefit to U.S. strategic or economic interests in the Middle East. It's continually breached international law with its illegal occupation and settlement building, and in doing so sabotaged several U.S.-sponsored peace processes. It launches inconclusive invasions of neighbouring countries with U.S. weapons, and has been pursuing an illegal nuclear weapons programme for decades. The United States gets barely any return for its blind support of a country that routinely treats them as mugs.
(edited 13 years ago)
Original post by Haychee
That is a good one sided look at the debate, well done!
He makes a point though. It's true that Israeli citizens (and Israeli settlers on illegally occupied Palestinian land) are fully protected by democratic and civil rights, but anyone who claims the occupation conforms to the conventions you label is simply lying. And everyone knows that without U.S. backing the occupation would be unsustainable.
(edited 13 years ago)
Original post by imzir
and mass culling of innocent palestians is one of these conventions?
Original post by Suetonius
He makes a point though. It's true that Israel - and Israeli citizens - are fully protected by democratic and civil rights, but anyone who claims the occupation conforms to the conventions you label is simply lying. And everyone knows that without U.S. backing the occupation would be unsustainable.
What if the founding fathers of America saw America today - I can only imagine there shock and horror.
I quite like the quote from Kissinger, the Jewish former US Secretary of State:
"We have vetoed 8 resolutions for the past years, given them $ 4 billion in aid, voted for resolutions composed entirely of our own statements and deleted things we objected to previously and we still are treated as if we have done nothing for them"
US aid to Israel is, at the end of the day, entirely independent of realpolitik. They do so because they feel they have a duty to.
"We have vetoed 8 resolutions for the past years, given them $ 4 billion in aid, voted for resolutions composed entirely of our own statements and deleted things we objected to previously and we still are treated as if we have done nothing for them"
US aid to Israel is, at the end of the day, entirely independent of realpolitik. They do so because they feel they have a duty to.
Proxy war?
Much easier for would-be terrorists to summon support against a country at their doorstep than half way across the world?
list of theories goes on and onn....
And lots of powerful jews in america who can influence policy, i would imagine.
Much easier for would-be terrorists to summon support against a country at their doorstep than half way across the world?
list of theories goes on and onn....
And lots of powerful jews in america who can influence policy, i would imagine.
(edited 13 years ago)
Original post by Salazar
US aid to Israel is, at the end of the day, entirely independent of realpolitik. They do so because they feel they have a duty to.
US aid to Israel is, at the end of the day, entirely independent of realpolitik. They do so because they feel they have a duty to.
Seems like there is an ulterior motif.
Original post by Suetonius
I find this more and more perplexing every day, I must say. Israel provides little or no benefit to U.S. strategic or economic interests in the Middle East. It's continually breached international law with its illegal occupation and settlement building, and in doing so sabotaged several U.S.-sponsored peace processes. It launches inconclusive invasions of neighbouring countries with U.S. weapons, and has been pursuing an illegal nuclear weapons programme for decades. The United States gets barely any return for its blind support of a country who routinely treats them as mugs.
What? Israel is one of few actual friends the US has in the region. Obviously there is internal pressure from within the US but if you honestly believe that some insanely powerful Jews are holding the US to ransom in order to fund their ethnic cleansing then you genuinely have no idea. It would be suicidal for the US to allow the ridiculous resolutions to be passed giving the Palestinians a free pass despite their blatant atrocities in the conflict.
First of all the occupation is a result of the conflict, not the cause. Secondly it was caused by a clique of neighboring Arab countries preparing to wage war upon Israel like they tried in 48 (and again in 73) when you know, both Jordan and Egypt illegally occupied the West Bank and Gaza. The result was a swift Israeli victory and the acquisition of various territories. You know, when fighting a war backed by a genocidal rhetoric by several of your neighbors you need to make moves such as defensively occupying territory in order to survive. Who did Israel occupy the West Bank from? Jordan? Oh the ones who occupied it illegally prior? It's more disputed territory than occupied as there has been no real sovreign power. The Golan Heights were offered back to Syria in return for peace but they didn't wish to negotiate. As said Israel completely withdrew from Gaza but they're still forced to carry out air attacks on terror locations.
International Law might deem 99% of Israeli activity illegal but they don't care, and they shouldn't care. I don't think Israel has ever been allowed a regular position at the UN where as several Arab countries lobbying against it have. Not only is there a disproportionate amount of resolutions directed at Israel (a lot of them condemning retaliation to rocket fire) but they don't really mean anything. They didn't mean anything when al-Bashir was committing actual genocide, Burma, West Papua etc or when China continued to aid Iran's nuclear efforts. Bottom line is the UN has no real power and if their petty resolutions are detrimental to a nations interest and security then said nation is well within their right to reject them.
Simply listing Israeli activity without providing context, in order to portray them in a bad light is asinine and reveals your bias. I can do exactly the same for the Arab belligerents. The Lebanon war was because of the PLO amassing in the south (even the Lebanese disliked them) and launching terror attacks from there. It's pretty much the same for Gaza (though Israel later completely withdrew). What do you expect them to do? Any other nation faced with what Israel faces (immediate neighbors and region calling for your destruction, on going terror campaigns against your civilians and zero help from the international community) would act the same way. For every resolution condemning the Israeli bombing of x there should be one condemning Hamas/Hizbollah from purposely launching attacks from hospitals, mosques, houses, villages, schools and so on. The wars were indeed ugly and what happened in between unfortunate and wrong (civilian fatalities) but that was a culmination of Arab militant activity, something the Jews have been combating before the state of Israel was even created. When Israel withdraws, Iran effectively moves in by flooding militias with arms. Just recently Israel intercepted a ship bound for Gaza, packed with arms of Iranian origin.
Baring that in mind I agree that Israeli settlement activity (whether they are legal or not) is detrimental to peace but for crying out loud stop unilaterally blaming Israel. Are you aware of how many other belligerents play a role in the conflict? Obviously, as the bigger nation, Israel should be making the first moves but they can't do that until Hamas is either dismantled or rescinds its genocidal rhetoric, they can agree on a solution to refugees and Israel can be 100% certain security measures will be put in place. The Palestinians (a group of people created out of politics and pan-Arabism) should be talking to Israel, not trying to act through the UN. If the world ignores Israel and only panders to the Palestinians then why would the Palestinians ever need to negotiate when everything is just being handed to them? THAT is detrimental to peace and please, don't act like Palestinians haven't squandered peace talks (think the US brokered 2000 deal).
Abbas is apparently meeting Hamas soon to end division between the two. Hopefully a unified Palestine will revive the current stagnant peace process. Hopefully people will also start acknowledging that it's not a case of "Israel, you make a few concessions, then everything will be all find and happy!!!!".
Original post by thisisnew
What? Israel is one of few actual friends the US has in the region. Obviously there is internal pressure from within the US but if you honestly believe that some insanely powerful Jews are holding the US to ransom in order to fund their ethnic cleansing then you genuinely have no idea. It would be suicidal for the US to allow the ridiculous resolutions to be passed giving the Palestinians a free pass despite their blatant atrocities in the conflict.
First of all the occupation is a result of the conflict, not the cause. Secondly it was caused by a clique of neighboring Arab countries preparing to wage war upon Israel like they tried in 48 (and again in 73) when you know, both Jordan and Egypt illegally occupied the West Bank and Gaza. The result was a swift Israeli victory and the acquisition of various territories. You know, when fighting a war backed by a genocidal rhetoric by several of your neighbors you need to make moves such as defensively occupying territory in order to survive. Who did Israel occupy the West Bank from? Jordan? Oh the ones who occupied it illegally prior? It's more disputed territory than occupied as there has been no real sovreign power. The Golan Heights were offered back to Syria in return for peace but they didn't wish to negotiate. As said Israel completely withdrew from Gaza but they're still forced to carry out air attacks on terror locations.
International Law might deem 99% of Israeli activity illegal but they don't care, and they shouldn't care. I don't think Israel has ever been allowed a regular position at the UN where as several Arab countries lobbying against it have. Not only is there a disproportionate amount of resolutions directed at Israel (a lot of them condemning retaliation to rocket fire) but they don't really mean anything. They didn't mean anything when al-Bashir was committing actual genocide, Burma, West Papua etc or when China continued to aid Iran's nuclear efforts. Bottom line is the UN has no real power and if their petty resolutions are detrimental to a nations interest and security then said nation is well within their right to reject them.
".
First of all the occupation is a result of the conflict, not the cause. Secondly it was caused by a clique of neighboring Arab countries preparing to wage war upon Israel like they tried in 48 (and again in 73) when you know, both Jordan and Egypt illegally occupied the West Bank and Gaza. The result was a swift Israeli victory and the acquisition of various territories. You know, when fighting a war backed by a genocidal rhetoric by several of your neighbors you need to make moves such as defensively occupying territory in order to survive. Who did Israel occupy the West Bank from? Jordan? Oh the ones who occupied it illegally prior? It's more disputed territory than occupied as there has been no real sovreign power. The Golan Heights were offered back to Syria in return for peace but they didn't wish to negotiate. As said Israel completely withdrew from Gaza but they're still forced to carry out air attacks on terror locations.
International Law might deem 99% of Israeli activity illegal but they don't care, and they shouldn't care. I don't think Israel has ever been allowed a regular position at the UN where as several Arab countries lobbying against it have. Not only is there a disproportionate amount of resolutions directed at Israel (a lot of them condemning retaliation to rocket fire) but they don't really mean anything. They didn't mean anything when al-Bashir was committing actual genocide, Burma, West Papua etc or when China continued to aid Iran's nuclear efforts. Bottom line is the UN has no real power and if their petty resolutions are detrimental to a nations interest and security then said nation is well within their right to reject them.
".
The Israeli airstrikes on the Gaza Strip represent severe and massive violations of international humanitarian law as defined in the Geneva Conventions, both in regard to the obligations of an Occupying Power and in the requirements of the laws of war.
Those violations include:
•
Collective punishment:
The entire 1.5 million people who live in the crowded Gaza Strip are being punished for the actions of a few militants.
•
Targeting civilians:
The airstrikes were aimed at civilian areas in one of the most crowded stretches of land in the world, certainly the most densely populated area of the Middle East.
•
Disproportionate military response:
The airstrikes have not only destroyed every police and security office of Gaza's elected government, but have killed and injured hundreds of civilians; at least one strike reportedly hit groups of students attempting to find transportation home from the university.
Earlier Israeli actions, specifically the complete sealing off of entry and exit to and from the Gaza Strip, have led to severe shortages of medicine and fuel (as well as food), resulting in the inability of ambulances to respond to the injured, the inability of hospitals to adequately provide medicine or necessary equipment for the injured, and the inability of Gaza's besieged doctors and other medical workers to sufficiently treat the victims.
Certainly the rocket attacks against civilian targets in Israel are unlawful. But that illegality does not give rise to any Israeli right, neither as the Occupying Power nor as a sovereign state, to violate international humanitarian law and commit war crimes or crimes against humanity in its response. I note that Israel's escalating military assaults have not made Israeli civilians safer; to the contrary, the one Israeli killed today after the upsurge of Israeli violence is the first in over a year.
Israel has also ignored recent Hamas diplomatic initiatives to re-establish the truce or ceasefire since its expiration on December 26.
The Israeli airstrikes today, and the catastrophic human toll that they caused, challenge those countries that have been and remain complicit, either directly or indirectly, in Israel's violations of international law. That complicity includes those countries knowingly providing the military equipment including warplanes and missiles used in these illegal attacks, as well as those countries who have supported and participated in the siege of Gaza that itself has caused a humanitarian catastrophe.
I remind all Member States of the United Nations that the UN continues to be bound to an independent obligation to protect any civilian population facing massive violations of international humanitarian law--regardless of what country may be responsible for those violations. I call on all Member States, as well as officials and every relevant organ of the United Nations system, to move on an emergency basis not only to condemn Israel's serious violations, but to develop new approaches to providing real protection for the Palestinian people.
Original post by thisisnew
don't act like Palestinians haven't squandered peace talks
fat essay. i couldnt be bothered to read it thoroughly but i did notice this line.
It shows how out of touch you are. The Palestinians don't want peace talks. they're sick to death of bloody peace talks.
Original post by fell
fat essay. i couldnt be bothered to read it thoroughly but i did notice this line.
It shows how out of touch you are. The Palestinians don't want peace talks. they're sick to death of bloody peace talks.
It shows how out of touch you are. The Palestinians don't want peace talks. they're sick to death of bloody peace talks.
What are you talking about? You quoted me saying "don't act like the Palestinians haven't squandered peace talks" which they have and which was in response to the peson I quoted claiming Israel has squandered American brokered deals, try posting some relevant to what you quote next time.
Original post by thisisnew
what? Israel is one of few actual friends the us has in the region. Obviously there is internal pressure from within the us but if you honestly believe that some insanely powerful jews are holding the us to ransom in order to fund their ethnic cleansing then you genuinely have no idea. It would be suicidal for the us to allow the ridiculous resolutions to be passed giving the palestinians a free pass despite their blatant atrocities in the conflict.
First of all the occupation is a result of the conflict, not the cause. Secondly it was caused by a clique of neighboring arab countries preparing to wage war upon israel like they tried in 48 (and again in 73) when you know, both jordan and egypt illegally occupied the west bank and gaza. The result was a swift israeli victory and the acquisition of various territories. You know, when fighting a war backed by a genocidal rhetoric by several of your neighbors you need to make moves such as defensively occupying territory in order to survive. Who did israel occupy the west bank from? Jordan? Oh the ones who occupied it illegally prior? It's more disputed territory than occupied as there has been no real sovreign power. The golan heights were offered back to syria in return for peace but they didn't wish to negotiate. As said israel completely withdrew from gaza but they're still forced to carry out air attacks on terror locations.
International law might deem 99% of israeli activity illegal but they don't care, and they shouldn't care. I don't think israel has ever been allowed a regular position at the un where as several arab countries lobbying against it have. Not only is there a disproportionate amount of resolutions directed at israel (a lot of them condemning retaliation to rocket fire) but they don't really mean anything. They didn't mean anything when al-bashir was committing actual genocide, burma, west papua etc or when china continued to aid iran's nuclear efforts. Bottom line is the un has no real power and if their petty resolutions are detrimental to a nations interest and security then said nation is well within their right to reject them.
Simply listing israeli activity without providing context, in order to portray them in a bad light is asinine and reveals your bias. I can do exactly the same for the arab belligerents. The lebanon war was because of the plo amassing in the south (even the lebanese disliked them) and launching terror attacks from there. It's pretty much the same for gaza (though israel later completely withdrew). What do you expect them to do? Any other nation faced with what israel faces (immediate neighbors and region calling for your destruction, on going terror campaigns against your civilians and zero help from the international community) would act the same way. For every resolution condemning the israeli bombing of x there should be one condemning hamas/hizbollah from purposely launching attacks from hospitals, mosques, houses, villages, schools and so on. The wars were indeed ugly and what happened in between unfortunate and wrong (civilian fatalities) but that was a culmination of arab militant activity, something the jews have been combating before the state of israel was even created. When israel withdraws, iran effectively moves in by flooding militias with arms. Just recently israel intercepted a ship bound for gaza, packed with arms of iranian origin.
Baring that in mind i agree that israeli settlement activity (whether they are legal or not) is detrimental to peace but for crying out loud stop unilaterally blaming israel. Are you aware of how many other belligerents play a role in the conflict? Obviously, as the bigger nation, israel should be making the first moves but they can't do that until hamas is either dismantled or rescinds its genocidal rhetoric, they can agree on a solution to refugees and israel can be 100% certain security measures will be put in place. The palestinians (a group of people created out of politics and pan-arabism) should be talking to israel, not trying to act through the un. If the world ignores israel and only panders to the palestinians then why would the palestinians ever need to negotiate when everything is just being handed to them? That is detrimental to peace and please, don't act like palestinians haven't squandered peace talks (think the us brokered 2000 deal).
Abbas is apparently meeting hamas soon to end division between the two. Hopefully a unified palestine will revive the current stagnant peace process. Hopefully people will also start acknowledging that it's not a case of "israel, you make a few concessions, then everything will be all find and happy!!!!".
First of all the occupation is a result of the conflict, not the cause. Secondly it was caused by a clique of neighboring arab countries preparing to wage war upon israel like they tried in 48 (and again in 73) when you know, both jordan and egypt illegally occupied the west bank and gaza. The result was a swift israeli victory and the acquisition of various territories. You know, when fighting a war backed by a genocidal rhetoric by several of your neighbors you need to make moves such as defensively occupying territory in order to survive. Who did israel occupy the west bank from? Jordan? Oh the ones who occupied it illegally prior? It's more disputed territory than occupied as there has been no real sovreign power. The golan heights were offered back to syria in return for peace but they didn't wish to negotiate. As said israel completely withdrew from gaza but they're still forced to carry out air attacks on terror locations.
International law might deem 99% of israeli activity illegal but they don't care, and they shouldn't care. I don't think israel has ever been allowed a regular position at the un where as several arab countries lobbying against it have. Not only is there a disproportionate amount of resolutions directed at israel (a lot of them condemning retaliation to rocket fire) but they don't really mean anything. They didn't mean anything when al-bashir was committing actual genocide, burma, west papua etc or when china continued to aid iran's nuclear efforts. Bottom line is the un has no real power and if their petty resolutions are detrimental to a nations interest and security then said nation is well within their right to reject them.
Simply listing israeli activity without providing context, in order to portray them in a bad light is asinine and reveals your bias. I can do exactly the same for the arab belligerents. The lebanon war was because of the plo amassing in the south (even the lebanese disliked them) and launching terror attacks from there. It's pretty much the same for gaza (though israel later completely withdrew). What do you expect them to do? Any other nation faced with what israel faces (immediate neighbors and region calling for your destruction, on going terror campaigns against your civilians and zero help from the international community) would act the same way. For every resolution condemning the israeli bombing of x there should be one condemning hamas/hizbollah from purposely launching attacks from hospitals, mosques, houses, villages, schools and so on. The wars were indeed ugly and what happened in between unfortunate and wrong (civilian fatalities) but that was a culmination of arab militant activity, something the jews have been combating before the state of israel was even created. When israel withdraws, iran effectively moves in by flooding militias with arms. Just recently israel intercepted a ship bound for gaza, packed with arms of iranian origin.
Baring that in mind i agree that israeli settlement activity (whether they are legal or not) is detrimental to peace but for crying out loud stop unilaterally blaming israel. Are you aware of how many other belligerents play a role in the conflict? Obviously, as the bigger nation, israel should be making the first moves but they can't do that until hamas is either dismantled or rescinds its genocidal rhetoric, they can agree on a solution to refugees and israel can be 100% certain security measures will be put in place. The palestinians (a group of people created out of politics and pan-arabism) should be talking to israel, not trying to act through the un. If the world ignores israel and only panders to the palestinians then why would the palestinians ever need to negotiate when everything is just being handed to them? That is detrimental to peace and please, don't act like palestinians haven't squandered peace talks (think the us brokered 2000 deal).
Abbas is apparently meeting hamas soon to end division between the two. Hopefully a unified palestine will revive the current stagnant peace process. Hopefully people will also start acknowledging that it's not a case of "israel, you make a few concessions, then everything will be all find and happy!!!!".
what a
c
o
c
k
you are
Original post by imzir
Any sane person would realise that Zionism is wrong! listen to this rabbi:
yet the few political leaders with power in America choose to go against the moral norm ¬¬
yet the few political leaders with power in America choose to go against the moral norm ¬¬
You do realise that this 'rabbi' belongs to a backwards ultra-orthodox jewish sect called Neturei Karta, and that they probably represent 2% of world-Jewery? The only reason they oppose Israel is because they believe the Jewish people need to wait for god to give them 'the promised land'- not because of some humanitarian motive or whatever.
people keep bringing these idiots up as if their opinion matters in any way shape or form.
Original post by fell
fat essay. i couldnt be bothered to read it thoroughly but i did notice this line.
It shows how out of touch you are. The Palestinians don't want peace talks. they're sick to death of bloody peace talks.
It shows how out of touch you are. The Palestinians don't want peace talks. they're sick to death of bloody peace talks.
Absolutely this isn't something to even be negotitated - its horrific enough the zionist movement even started.Truth stands out clear from error.
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