What do you guys think of a KETO/Low carb diet?
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Original post by ch0c0h01ic
All diets work in one of two ways:
1) Calorie restriction
2) Increased activity level
Most people consume large amounts of carbohydrates, reducing carbohydrate consumption reduces your calorific intake and in doing so creates a calorie deficit, which causes you to lose weight - it is no more mystical than that. The "metabolic" benefit that some people speak of is negligible if not non-existent. Equal or better results could be gained by a simple calorie controlled diet.
Low carb and ketogenic diets have a couple of fundamental problems though:
1) Carbohydrates are the preferred fuel source of the brain and your muscles - restrict carbohydrates and you will see a fall in athletic performance, lethargy, lack of concentration, headaches, mood swings, etc. Sure some people see an improvement after a couple of weeks but a lot don't without eating more carbs or limiting exercise intensity and volume. Again far from ideal.
2) Malnourishment - most people's diets are deficient in fruit and vegetables, low carb and ketogenic diets take things even further by restricting fruit and vegetable choices and consumption even more. To match this some people use vitamin and mineral supplements but they're expensive and have questionable efficacy.
3) Compliance - low or no carb diets are highly restrictive and do not fit in well with day to day life. The result is that most people give up within a relatively short space of time and regain most (if not all) of the weight they lost.
4) Cost - large amounts of high quality meats and fish are expensive. Few people can afford to maintain it or do it properly.
5) Health - low carb and ketogenic diets are deficient in vegetables and fruit, and within that fibre, vitamins and minerals, and a lot of people trying to cut the cost of the diet also eat more processed meats. Again, far from ideal.
Fat's aren't very satiating. Protein, fibre and water rich foods - YES. Fat - NO. If you're getting the majority of your calories from fat it is relatively easy to overeat or even gain weight.
Considering low carb and ketogenic diets are low in fibre and water rich foods (eg; vegetables, beans, lentils) it isn't ideal.
More myth than true.
It is harder than a lot of people think to lose large amounts of muscle, by and large we're talking about chronic malnourishment coupled with a significant calorie deficit and a lack of resistance training full stop.
The reason why rapid weight loss isn't ideal is because you're sacrificing your health and performance, and in the short term the majority of your weight loss is going to be water, not fat or muscle.
Paleo is a fad diet? Maybe not but it scores highly in the dogma stakes.
Sure it is a step forward for most but do we know that it is what Paleolithic man ate? Do we know that we are "designed" to eat it? Do we know that it is the "best" diet? No.
Even Paleo proponents can't decide amongst themselves - some say dairy products are ok, some not, some say legumes are ok, some not, some say rice is ok, some not, some say nuts and seeds are ok, some not, etc. All of that is woven together with a mixture of irrationality and poor science. For example, some foods are excluded from the diet because they contain "antinutritional factors" whereas in other instances it is ignored. Studies which found genetic markers to gluten sensitivity in some diseased populations are presented in a way to convince the reader that gluten CAUSED these diseases when in actual fact there is little or no evidence that that is the case. Elsewhere conflicting studies and evidence is ignored in an attempt to make a more convincing argument.
Frankly it is a mess.
1) Calorie restriction
2) Increased activity level
Most people consume large amounts of carbohydrates, reducing carbohydrate consumption reduces your calorific intake and in doing so creates a calorie deficit, which causes you to lose weight - it is no more mystical than that. The "metabolic" benefit that some people speak of is negligible if not non-existent. Equal or better results could be gained by a simple calorie controlled diet.
Low carb and ketogenic diets have a couple of fundamental problems though:
1) Carbohydrates are the preferred fuel source of the brain and your muscles - restrict carbohydrates and you will see a fall in athletic performance, lethargy, lack of concentration, headaches, mood swings, etc. Sure some people see an improvement after a couple of weeks but a lot don't without eating more carbs or limiting exercise intensity and volume. Again far from ideal.
2) Malnourishment - most people's diets are deficient in fruit and vegetables, low carb and ketogenic diets take things even further by restricting fruit and vegetable choices and consumption even more. To match this some people use vitamin and mineral supplements but they're expensive and have questionable efficacy.
3) Compliance - low or no carb diets are highly restrictive and do not fit in well with day to day life. The result is that most people give up within a relatively short space of time and regain most (if not all) of the weight they lost.
4) Cost - large amounts of high quality meats and fish are expensive. Few people can afford to maintain it or do it properly.
5) Health - low carb and ketogenic diets are deficient in vegetables and fruit, and within that fibre, vitamins and minerals, and a lot of people trying to cut the cost of the diet also eat more processed meats. Again, far from ideal.
Fat's aren't very satiating. Protein, fibre and water rich foods - YES. Fat - NO. If you're getting the majority of your calories from fat it is relatively easy to overeat or even gain weight.
Considering low carb and ketogenic diets are low in fibre and water rich foods (eg; vegetables, beans, lentils) it isn't ideal.
More myth than true.
It is harder than a lot of people think to lose large amounts of muscle, by and large we're talking about chronic malnourishment coupled with a significant calorie deficit and a lack of resistance training full stop.
The reason why rapid weight loss isn't ideal is because you're sacrificing your health and performance, and in the short term the majority of your weight loss is going to be water, not fat or muscle.
Paleo is a fad diet? Maybe not but it scores highly in the dogma stakes.
Sure it is a step forward for most but do we know that it is what Paleolithic man ate? Do we know that we are "designed" to eat it? Do we know that it is the "best" diet? No.
Even Paleo proponents can't decide amongst themselves - some say dairy products are ok, some not, some say legumes are ok, some not, some say rice is ok, some not, some say nuts and seeds are ok, some not, etc. All of that is woven together with a mixture of irrationality and poor science. For example, some foods are excluded from the diet because they contain "antinutritional factors" whereas in other instances it is ignored. Studies which found genetic markers to gluten sensitivity in some diseased populations are presented in a way to convince the reader that gluten CAUSED these diseases when in actual fact there is little or no evidence that that is the case. Elsewhere conflicting studies and evidence is ignored in an attempt to make a more convincing argument.
Frankly it is a mess.
The only thing that carbs give us is ... sugar, which can be obtained by other means. So I do not see the problem there!
If we need to burn fat to lose weight, shouldn't we be making the body use fat as fuel rather than carbohydrates?
A low carb diet makes me full for longer which means I eat less. So yea It is working well so far....
I do find it quite costy sometimes but I can keep up from time to time I find.
Original post by 4TSR
The only thing that carbs give us is ... sugar, which can be obtained by other means. So I do not see the problem there!
As I will say again, carbohydrates are the preferred energy source of the brain and muscles. Yes your body can use other substrates for energy and even synthesise glucose/glycogen from fats and protein however it is slower and/or less efficient than ingesting adequate carbohydrates.
The result is that brain and muscular performance suffers. People get headaches, lack concentration, generalised lethargy, exercise intolerance, muscle weakness, etc.
Basic physiology.
Try it for yourself - test your 5RM in the squat after you've been low carbing for a week, test your 5K time and take a closer look at your productivity at work (especially in the afternoon). I will guarantee that you will notice a negative effect unless you're relatively inactive or aren't eating a particularly low carbohydrate diet.
If we need to burn fat to lose weight, shouldn't we be making the body use fat as fuel rather than carbohydrates?
Largely what determines weight and fat loss is energy balance. If you are burning more calories that you are consuming you will lose fat regardless of how much carbohydrate/fat/protein you consume.
Sure when you're low carbing more of your energy is being derived from fat, however you won't lose significant amounts of weight or fat without a calorie deficit. For that same reason weight loss on a low carb diet is proportional to calorie deficit after the first couple of weeks. Sure you may experience greater weight loss before that but the majority of that is water as carbohydrates are closely associated with water in the boy. It is just as easy to gain fat on a low carb diet as it is a high carb diet.
A low carb diet makes me full for longer which means I eat less. So yea It is working well so far....
Undoubtedly a diet rich in vegetables, fibre and water rich foods would be better.
Original post by ch0c0h01ic
1) Carbohydrates are the preferred fuel source of the brain and your muscles - restrict carbohydrates and you will see a fall in athletic performance, lethargy, lack of concentration, headaches, mood swings, etc. Sure some people see an improvement after a couple of weeks but a lot don't without eating more carbs or limiting exercise intensity and volume. Again far from ideal.
There is an adaptation period when they first begin called Keto Flu, which is often compared to a bad cold or mild flu symptoms, but it lasts no more than a few days and most people don't even experience it (I never did). As for effects after that, read any keto/lowcarb forum and you will see many people talking of the positive effects; like increased concentration, lack of mood swings, less recurring headaches and physical effects like clearing up of the skin and more energy.
Keto isn't particularly good for weightlifting and short burst activities, where Muscle glycogen is a much better fuel source, those would require CKD. For endurance activities it has advantages, like if running a Marathon on Keto you will not experience the 20mile wall where you run out of Glycogen.
Original post by ch0c0h01ic
Keto is only the Bacon and Eggs diet if you want it to be, most do not. I for instance eat many fibrous nutritious vegetables with my bacon and eggs. Like cabbages, asparagus, kale, spinach, broccoli, cauliflower, avocado ect. I don't supplement, and yet have no signs of nutrient deficiencies.
Original post by ch0c0h01ic
This only happens when people use any diet as a quick scheme to lose some weight and don't change their habits. Keto has advantages in this regard because it forces you to understand the constituent parts of the things you eat.
Original post by ch0c0h01ic
This depends entirely on your income and whether or not you are a savvy shopper. I know people who eat nothing but noodles, pasta and full sugar coke and find it hard to get by, and people of around the same income easily doing keto.
Meat gets super discounts if you go to the supermarket at the right time of day.
Original post by ch0c0h01ic
Again, this depends entirely on what each individual eats. As I do its very easy to maintain a nutritious diet, but I've also heard of people on keto eating nothing but meat and eggs and doing perfectly fine.
Original post by ch0c0h01ic
Considering low carb and ketogenic diets are low in fibre and water rich foods (eg; vegetables, beans, lentils) it isn't ideal.
I just simply have to disagree with you here from my own experience. I tried a low fat, moderate protein, high carb diet with roughly the same fibrous vegetable consumption and calorie deficit that I'm doing now. I was hungry, all, the, time. After meals I felt like crap and was constantly tired.
Nowadays I'm sticking to a 400cal deficit with a rough 60/35/5 (fat/protein/carb) energy consumption split. I'm full of energy, my head no longer gets foggy after meals, I'm sleeping better and I'm rarely hungry.
Original post by ch0c0h01ic
As I will say again, carbohydrates are the preferred energy source of the brain and muscles. Yes your body can use other substrates for energy and even synthesise glucose/glycogen from fats and protein however it is slower and/or less efficient than ingesting adequate carbohydrates.
The result is that brain and muscular performance suffers. People get headaches, lack concentration, generalised lethargy, exercise intolerance, muscle weakness, etc.
Basic physiology.
Try it for yourself - test your 5RM in the squat after you've been low carbing for a week, test your 5K time and take a closer look at your productivity at work (especially in the afternoon). I will guarantee that you will notice a negative effect unless you're relatively inactive or aren't eating a particularly low carbohydrate diet.
Largely what determines weight and fat loss is energy balance. If you are burning more calories that you are consuming you will lose fat regardless of how much carbohydrate/fat/protein you consume.
Sure when you're low carbing more of your energy is being derived from fat, however you won't lose significant amounts of weight or fat without a calorie deficit. For that same reason weight loss on a low carb diet is proportional to calorie deficit after the first couple of weeks. Sure you may experience greater weight loss before that but the majority of that is water as carbohydrates are closely associated with water in the boy. It is just as easy to gain fat on a low carb diet as it is a high carb diet.
Undoubtedly a diet rich in vegetables, fibre and water rich foods would be better.
The result is that brain and muscular performance suffers. People get headaches, lack concentration, generalised lethargy, exercise intolerance, muscle weakness, etc.
Basic physiology.
Try it for yourself - test your 5RM in the squat after you've been low carbing for a week, test your 5K time and take a closer look at your productivity at work (especially in the afternoon). I will guarantee that you will notice a negative effect unless you're relatively inactive or aren't eating a particularly low carbohydrate diet.
Largely what determines weight and fat loss is energy balance. If you are burning more calories that you are consuming you will lose fat regardless of how much carbohydrate/fat/protein you consume.
Sure when you're low carbing more of your energy is being derived from fat, however you won't lose significant amounts of weight or fat without a calorie deficit. For that same reason weight loss on a low carb diet is proportional to calorie deficit after the first couple of weeks. Sure you may experience greater weight loss before that but the majority of that is water as carbohydrates are closely associated with water in the boy. It is just as easy to gain fat on a low carb diet as it is a high carb diet.
Undoubtedly a diet rich in vegetables, fibre and water rich foods would be better.
I made the thread in the hope of finding people like you to discuss this with.
I have been on it for almost a week and I can already feel some lacking at work (I work night shifts, 12 hours a shift on a desk) I do not feel tired but I almost made a mistake earlier, the type I never make; I agree with you somewhat on that point.
However, I am still eating a good amount of veggie, fish, meats and eggs.
I also moved completely to diet coke and sweetners with tea etc. I also increased the amount of walking I do and I got an exercise bike.
I eat veggie in almost all of my meals.
Original post by jms
There is an adaptation period when they first begin called Keto Flu, which is often compared to a bad cold or mild flu symptoms, but it lasts no more than a few days and most people don't even experience it (I never did). As for effects after that, read any keto/lowcarb forum and you will see many people talking of the positive effects; like increased concentration, lack of mood swings, less recurring headaches and physical effects like clearing up of the skin and more energy.
Keto isn't particularly good for weightlifting and short burst activities, where Muscle glycogen is a much better fuel source, those would require CKD. For endurance activities it has advantages, like if running a Marathon on Keto you will not experience the 20mile wall where you run out of Glycogen.
Keto isn't particularly good for weightlifting and short burst activities, where Muscle glycogen is a much better fuel source, those would require CKD. For endurance activities it has advantages, like if running a Marathon on Keto you will not experience the 20mile wall where you run out of Glycogen.
Granted there are some improvements following "adaptation" but it is rarely optimal. Sure some people may see an improvement over their regular diet but they are by no means all and that is often because they were eating a poor diet beforehand.
Eat a good conventional diet and you can get significantly better results, problem is that people confuse their lack of understanding and ability to do so with a conventional diet "not working" or a low carb diet being "superior".
Keto is only the Bacon and Eggs diet if you want it to be, most do not. I for instance eat many fibrous nutritious vegetables with my bacon and eggs. Like cabbages, asparagus, kale, spinach, broccoli, cauliflower, avocado ect. I don't supplement, and yet have no signs of nutrient deficiencies.
I would question how you are able to maintain ketosis while eating "many" vegetables. If you really are eating large amounts of vegetables you probably aren't in ketosis (and vice versa)
This only happens when people use any diet as a quick scheme to lose some weight and don't change their habits. Keto has advantages in this regard because it forces you to understand the constituent parts of the things you eat.
Not necessarily no.
One of the greatest issues is that low carb or even ketogenic diets are very restrictive and they aren't complementary to many people's lifestyles. Hence they are well documented to have a poorer level of compliance compared to something which is more conventional and more flexible.
This depends entirely on your income and whether or not you are a savvy shopper. I know people who eat nothing but noodles, pasta and full sugar coke and find it hard to get by, and people of around the same income easily doing keto.
Meat gets super discounts if you go to the supermarket at the right time of day.
Meat gets super discounts if you go to the supermarket at the right time of day.
You're preaching to the wrong person, I know all the tricks in the book.
Good sources of protein and fresh vegetables are expensive, increase your consumption of them and you end up paying more. It only works out cheaper if you end up eating less full stop or you compromise on quality/price.
I just simply have to disagree with you here from my own experience. I tried a low fat, moderate protein, high carb diet with roughly the same fibrous vegetable consumption and calorie deficit that I'm doing now. I was hungry, all, the, time. After meals I felt like crap and was constantly tired.
A lot of the problems stem from where people get their carbohydrates from and portion sizes. People consume massive portions of highly refined carbs around lunchtime, rather than eating more beans/lentils/brown rice/quinoa/vegetables spread out across the day, and then are surprised that they feel bloated, tired or hungry a couple of hours later.
Original post by ch0c0h01ic
Granted there are some improvements following "adaptation" but it is rarely optimal. Sure some people may see an improvement over their regular diet but they are by no means all and that is often because they were eating a poor diet beforehand.
Eat a good conventional diet and you can get significantly better results, problem is that people confuse their lack of understanding and ability to do so with a conventional diet "not working" or a low carb diet being "superior".
Eat a good conventional diet and you can get significantly better results, problem is that people confuse their lack of understanding and ability to do so with a conventional diet "not working" or a low carb diet being "superior".
Most people don't go straight from a normal diet to keto, they've tried others and found they haven't worked or have been difficult to maintain.
Original post by ch0c0h01ic
I would question how you are able to maintain ketosis while eating "many" vegetables. If you really are eating large amounts of vegetables you probably aren't in ketosis (and vice versa)
Ketostix, I've never been out in the 2 months I've been doing this. The net carbohydrate content of leafy vegetables is lower than you might suspect.
Original post by ch0c0h01ic
Not necessarily no.
One of the greatest issues is that low carb or even ketogenic diets are very restrictive and they aren't complementary to many people's lifestyles. Hence they are well documented to have a poorer level of compliance compared to something which is more conventional and more flexible.
One of the greatest issues is that low carb or even ketogenic diets are very restrictive and they aren't complementary to many people's lifestyles. Hence they are well documented to have a poorer level of compliance compared to something which is more conventional and more flexible.
If you still eat 3 meals a day then removing carbs should make no difference to your lifestyle. Sure, you don't get to eat carb laden snacks during the day, but shouldn't someone on a diet already be avoiding that and so it makes no difference?
If I get invited out for a meal I order a side salad with a steak instead of chips. Typically not a big deal on the social side either.
Original post by ch0c0h01ic
You're preaching to the wrong person, I know all the tricks in the book.
Good sources of protein and fresh vegetables are expensive, increase your consumption of them and you end up paying more. It only works out cheaper if you end up eating less full stop or you compromise on quality/price.
Good sources of protein and fresh vegetables are expensive, increase your consumption of them and you end up paying more. It only works out cheaper if you end up eating less full stop or you compromise on quality/price.
What I know is that our weekly shopping bill hasn't increased with me doing keto.
Original post by ch0c0h01ic
A lot of the problems stem from where people get their carbohydrates from and portion sizes. People consume massive portions of highly refined carbs around lunchtime, rather than eating more beans/lentils/brown rice/quinoa/vegetables spread out across the day, and then are surprised that they feel bloated, tired or hungry a couple of hours later.
beans, brown rice, wholewheat pasta, brown bread. Tried it, it didn't work for me. It might work for others, not for me. The same as keto, works for me, maybe not for others.
Original post by jms
Most people don't go straight from a normal diet to keto, they've tried others and found they haven't worked or have been difficult to maintain.
The vast majority of diets "work", the main issue is that people don't follow them properly, whether that's overestimating how much they exercise, underestimating how much they eat, "treating" themselves too often, thinking that healthier foods are less calorific, etc.
If you still eat 3 meals a day then removing carbs should make no difference to your lifestyle. Sure, you don't get to eat carb laden snacks during the day, but shouldn't someone on a diet already be avoiding that and so it makes no difference?
If I get invited out for a meal I order a side salad with a steak instead of chips. Typically not a big deal on the social side either.
If I get invited out for a meal I order a side salad with a steak instead of chips. Typically not a big deal on the social side either.
Low carb meals and snacks are harder to come by, more expensive and offer much less variation whether you're eating out or going over to a friend's for dinner.
Low carb diets are well documented to have a significantly lower level of compliance than less restrictive diets which reduce calorie intake through reducing portion size rather than excluding different foods and food groups.
What I know is that our weekly shopping bill hasn't increased with me doing keto.
You're very lucky then.
beans, brown rice, wholewheat pasta, brown bread. Tried it, it didn't work for me. It might work for others, not for me. The same as keto, works for me, maybe not for others.
Again, the issue is not that these foods don't "work" rather that most people don't measure out portion sizes, have no concept of "moderation", eat a poor diet in general, don't get enough exercise, etc.
Original post by BethaneyJ
I've done it lol. Decided regular diets were not working so tried something radical. It was really hard. I had headaches and felt angry and horrible for days but then got over that once I got used to it. It's hard to keep on top of as you are really restricted but I lost a LOT of weight and quickly. The thing is as soon as I stopped it all pretty much went back on.
It's either a quick fix or a way of life forever but it worked for me while I was doing it!
It's either a quick fix or a way of life forever but it worked for me while I was doing it!
When you say low carb, how many carbs did you consume per day?
Original post by RollandGarros
When you say low carb, how many carbs did you consume per day?
Net of 20g of carbohydrates per day. Most of it from vegetables (and a little bit from full fat cheese and eggs which apparently do have a little bit of carb in there someone).
Original post by BethaneyJ
Net of 20g of carbohydrates per day. Most of it from vegetables (and a little bit from full fat cheese and eggs which apparently do have a little bit of carb in there someone).
Oh right lol. I'm going 60g a day for 4 weeks. Followed by 30g a day for 4 weeks. Not including veg, I can eat as much of that as I like: 60 will be 1 wrap (30), 2 x protein shake (10 each), and 10 from elsewhere. 20g seems a bit too extreme lol, especially since i'm simultaneously training for a marathon, where I will have oats for breakfast which with milk, are about 30g on their own, as well the fact that i'm a newly-professional boxer.
Original post by RollandGarros
Oh right lol. I'm going 60g a day for 4 weeks. Followed by 30g a day for 4 weeks. Not including veg, I can eat as much of that as I like: 60 will be 1 wrap (30), 2 x protein shake (10 each), and 10 from elsewhere. 20g seems a bit too extreme lol, especially since i'm simultaneously training for a marathon, where I will have oats for breakfast which with milk, are about 30g on their own, as well the fact that i'm a newly-professional boxer.
Oh my, yeah when training for a marathon I can't imagine low carbs would be something that was easy at all.
Original post by BethaneyJ
Oh my, yeah when training for a marathon I can't imagine low carbs would be something that was easy at all.
Were you doing much, or any training at all during your keto-period? Or did you lose all that weight from diet alone?
Original post by RollandGarros
Were you doing much, or any training at all during your keto-period? Or did you lose all that weight from diet alone?
Definitely diet alone. I didn't increase my activity levels at all, in fact they probably decreased as I had a shoulder injury. It came off really quickly (too fast really). I used ketostix to check my ketone levels and I was consistently in ketosis. After the first few days of feeling like hell I started to feel like I had more energy.
Original post by THESHade
Try paleo diet instead
[video="youtube;2PdJFbjWHEU"]https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=2PdJFbjWHEU[/video]
EDIT: And thank me later
[video="youtube;2PdJFbjWHEU"]https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=2PdJFbjWHEU[/video]
EDIT: And thank me later
I can't watch videos at work so can you summarise it for me? the difference between KETO and paleo?
Original post by BethaneyJ
Definitely diet alone. I didn't increase my activity levels at all, in fact they probably decreased as I had a shoulder injury. It came off really quickly (too fast really). I used ketostix to check my ketone levels and I was consistently in ketosis. After the first few days of feeling like hell I started to feel like I had more energy.
So is running between 12-20km twice a week on max 60g carbs a day going to be exceptionally difficult lol? As well as boxing, rowing, cycling, sprinting, weight-lifting on following days?
Original post by RollandGarros
So is running between 12-20km twice a week on max 60g carbs a day going to be exceptionally difficult lol? As well as boxing, rowing, cycling, sprinting, weight-lifting on following days?
Haven't got a clue as I didn't do it! Just see what your boday can handle. If it needs more carbs you'll know cause you'll feel terrible. That does seem like a lot of exercise though. Why are you doing keto?
Original post by BethaneyJ
Haven't got a clue as I didn't do it! Just see what your boday can handle. If it needs more carbs you'll know cause you'll feel terrible. That does seem like a lot of exercise though. Why are you doing keto?
To get down to 10-12% BF%, and being a boxer, I need to keep my weight down to make the weigh-in before fights. Yourself?
Original post by RollandGarros
To get down to 10-12% BF%, and being a boxer, I need to keep my weight down to make the weigh-in before fights. Yourself?
Wow! That's impressive. I'm just after standard weight loss
Original post by 4TSR
I can't watch videos at work so can you summarise it for me? the difference between KETO and paleo?
You should watch the video anyway ...
but Paleo in short: no wheat, cereals, veggie oils, diary (even though I personally eat cheese)
Paleo is not exactly "diet" but more like a framework.
Watch the vid when you come home.
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