Student Finance: How is this fair??
My parents make quite a lot of money combined. However, they're massively in debt and on top of that they have my younger siblings to provide for. I haven't had any money off them since I was 16 years old. I've had a part time job since then and I've paid them rent which pays for my food and board every week. They would in no way be able to give me money for university. However, after typing in my details it turns out i'd only be entitled to:
£5963 maintenance loan.
and no maintenance grant.
And thats only because I want to go to university in London! If I wanted to go anywhere else in the UK it would be much less!!! My accommodation alone will be a good 4.5K a year!!
Nonetheless, my best friend lives with her Mum who gets less than 25K but has a Dad who she doesn't live with who gets a lot of money and tells her he'll give her £200 a month for university. And yet, she's been offered:
£5998 maintenance loan
£3354 maintenance grant
It makes me physically sick! I'm mean sure maybe give her a maintenance grant because her Mother owns less...but why isn't my loan the same as her loan and grant combined!!!!
I'm so upset by all of this. I rang student finance and they said the only thing i can do is get a job. Which of course I'll do. I'm very willing to. In fact I have a job now. But jobs are often distracting when at uni and I just feel it sad that people like me will be forced to get them, when others, like my friend will be having a much easier student life.
£5963 maintenance loan.
and no maintenance grant.
And thats only because I want to go to university in London! If I wanted to go anywhere else in the UK it would be much less!!! My accommodation alone will be a good 4.5K a year!!
Nonetheless, my best friend lives with her Mum who gets less than 25K but has a Dad who she doesn't live with who gets a lot of money and tells her he'll give her £200 a month for university. And yet, she's been offered:
£5998 maintenance loan
£3354 maintenance grant
It makes me physically sick! I'm mean sure maybe give her a maintenance grant because her Mother owns less...but why isn't my loan the same as her loan and grant combined!!!!
I'm so upset by all of this. I rang student finance and they said the only thing i can do is get a job. Which of course I'll do. I'm very willing to. In fact I have a job now. But jobs are often distracting when at uni and I just feel it sad that people like me will be forced to get them, when others, like my friend will be having a much easier student life.
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Not including my rent I have to live on £1700 a year. It is possible, and you shouldn't worry about it too much.
I realise that your issue is with the 'fairness' of student finance, and I agree that it seems unfair. I have always thought that student finance should be based on the STUDENT's income, not the parents. Just because someone's parents earn a certain amount, doesn't mean they have that amount available to give to their 'kids' who are technically adults anyway!
I realise that your issue is with the 'fairness' of student finance, and I agree that it seems unfair. I have always thought that student finance should be based on the STUDENT's income, not the parents. Just because someone's parents earn a certain amount, doesn't mean they have that amount available to give to their 'kids' who are technically adults anyway!
Original post by Magdatrix >_<
Not including my rent I have to live on £1700 a year. It is possible, and you shouldn't worry about it too much.
I realise that your issue is with the 'fairness' of student finance, and I agree that it seems unfair. I have always thought that student finance should be based on the STUDENT's income, not the parents. Just because someone's parents earn a certain amount, doesn't mean they have that amount available to give to their 'kids' who are technically adults anyway!
I realise that your issue is with the 'fairness' of student finance, and I agree that it seems unfair. I have always thought that student finance should be based on the STUDENT's income, not the parents. Just because someone's parents earn a certain amount, doesn't mean they have that amount available to give to their 'kids' who are technically adults anyway!
And where is the government going to get all of this additional money from?
It is, if you're an independent student. Otherwise it's quite reasonable to expect parents earning above a certain amount to contribute, given that students who are not independent are likely dependent on their parents for at least some support.
(edited 11 years ago)
If you're a dependent student it's expected that your parents will help you out financially. Since your parents don't it might be a good idea to ask them to reduce the amount you pay to them so you have more money, or work more hours in your job. I pay my parents rent each week (they don't earn a huge amount but I don't receive the maximum loan/grant) and work to supplement the loans, so it is do-able if you manage your time properly.
I have to live off £20 a week, it is quite easily possible. But you can forgot about snacks or drinking anything but water for most of the time (I can afford one fizzy drink a week). That by the way is only because I work, my loan is only £100 more than my accommodation, and I went for the cheapest! I agree it's not fair however, not all parents are willing to give money to their children, or are able to, whatever they earn. Good luck with everything anyway! 
It is ridiculous that they base your income for the next three years+ on one question. My parents own more than one of my friends', however I have three siblings, one of whom is disabled, and he's an only child. His parents are paying for his accommodation and living costs, mine can't give me a penny; he still gets a bigger loan than me. C'est la vie, I guess.
In the exact same situation, looking forward to three years living of baked beans. yay.
Original post by River85
And where is the government going to get all of this additional money from?
It is, if you're an independent student. Otherwise it's quite reasonably to expect parents earning above a certain amount to contribute, given that students who are not independent are likely dependent on their parents for at least some support.
It is, if you're an independent student. Otherwise it's quite reasonably to expect parents earning above a certain amount to contribute, given that students who are not independent are likely dependent on their parents for at least some support.
I don't understand this point at all. The vast majority of 18 years old I know,, exclud the wealthy do not get 'pocket money' from their parents hence why many work part time while they study. Aside from the obvious i.e accommodation, internet, odd bit of food and heating. These are expenses however which are likely to be incurred regardless unless you're a only child. , My parents literally give me NO money, If anything, I help them out. My parents expenditure will be the exact same, when I leave, due to siblings, me leaving is not going to cause a windfall in disposable income. You're not even entitled to any financial based scholarships or bursaries either.
I would agree that basing it on just student income and not parental income wouldn't work, but a new system needs to be introduced. They need to find some way of taking into consideration the disposable income of the student's parents, i.e copies of monthly statements showing the outgoings in their account, I doubt this kind of data would be hard to get hold of.
(edited 11 years ago)
After I pay my rent and bills (insurance, internet, water, gas & electricity) I have about £130 left over from my loan, and that is to last me the whole year. The system is what it is, you'll just have to get a job.
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I am only going to be able to get a maintenance loan of £2200 pounds due to being 'eligible' for nhs bursary (for which I get £0 pounds) for maintenance, that means I'm already about 2 grand down just on accommodation let alone living costs. Parents have got mortgage and 2 other children to pay for so can't give me an endless supply of money, even though they earn over the threshold! Don't get me wrong I am very grateful for the nhs paying my tuition fee's but I don't think I should only be able to get a reduced loan! Such a tricky situation.
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It's not fair, but neither is life. I'm guessing you grew up with their money so you had more than the people who the grant is supposed to support.
It is ****ty for you though and not right especially seeing your mate abusing it like that. £6k for London isn't great, but it's not bad though, my brother gets full loan and gets £8k and he's struggling because of rent.
I think it should be based on student's income, but then i guess that would be open to abuse too, as rich people could be greedy and just not give it, so then their kids get full loan or give cash and they'd get both.
I don't think it's unreasonable to expect people who earn well to help their kids, if they don't have anything else.
It's ridiculous that it goes up to 25. Adults who have been independent for 7 to 9 years, getting based on their parents income- that's unfair and stupid.
It is ****ty for you though and not right especially seeing your mate abusing it like that. £6k for London isn't great, but it's not bad though, my brother gets full loan and gets £8k and he's struggling because of rent.
I think it should be based on student's income, but then i guess that would be open to abuse too, as rich people could be greedy and just not give it, so then their kids get full loan or give cash and they'd get both.
I don't think it's unreasonable to expect people who earn well to help their kids, if they don't have anything else.
It's ridiculous that it goes up to 25. Adults who have been independent for 7 to 9 years, getting based on their parents income- that's unfair and stupid.
(edited 11 years ago)
The government has a limited pot of money. It makes sense that students from backgrounds where there is no hope of the parents being able to subsidise them at university due to a low income.
After that there is a limited pot of money to go around for everyone else. It is not unreasonable to expect that parents of students with household incomes that put them into the 'comfortably off' category should contribute. It is not the government's fault that your parents have made lifestyle choices that mean they have less disposable income, and I'm baffled as to why you think the taxpayer should be made to fund that when other, frankly more vital, services are being cut, such as Sure Start centres and housing benefit.
And before you say anything, yes debt is invariably a lifestyle choice. Having children is a lifestyle choice full stop. Debt comes from living beyond your means - be that because they've bought a house they can't afford or they've spent too much on their credit cards. I appreciate that there are some circumstances where people get into debt through no fault of their own, but you make no mention of this, so I have no reason to believe that it is the case.
After that there is a limited pot of money to go around for everyone else. It is not unreasonable to expect that parents of students with household incomes that put them into the 'comfortably off' category should contribute. It is not the government's fault that your parents have made lifestyle choices that mean they have less disposable income, and I'm baffled as to why you think the taxpayer should be made to fund that when other, frankly more vital, services are being cut, such as Sure Start centres and housing benefit.
And before you say anything, yes debt is invariably a lifestyle choice. Having children is a lifestyle choice full stop. Debt comes from living beyond your means - be that because they've bought a house they can't afford or they've spent too much on their credit cards. I appreciate that there are some circumstances where people get into debt through no fault of their own, but you make no mention of this, so I have no reason to believe that it is the case.
Original post by Origami Bullets
The government has a limited pot of money. It makes sense that students from backgrounds where there is no hope of the parents being able to subsidise them at university due to a low income.
After that there is a limited pot of money to go around for everyone else. It is not unreasonable to expect that parents of students with household incomes that put them into the 'comfortably off' category should contribute. It is not the government's fault that your parents have made lifestyle choices that mean they have less disposable income, and I'm baffled as to why you think the taxpayer should be made to fund that when other, frankly more vital, services are being cut, such as Sure Start centres and housing benefit.
And before you say anything, yes debt is invariably a lifestyle choice. Having children is a lifestyle choice full stop. Debt comes from living beyond your means - be that because they've bought a house they can't afford or they've spent too much on their credit cards. I appreciate that there are some circumstances where people get into debt through no fault of their own, but you make no mention of this, so I have no reason to believe that it is the case.
After that there is a limited pot of money to go around for everyone else. It is not unreasonable to expect that parents of students with household incomes that put them into the 'comfortably off' category should contribute. It is not the government's fault that your parents have made lifestyle choices that mean they have less disposable income, and I'm baffled as to why you think the taxpayer should be made to fund that when other, frankly more vital, services are being cut, such as Sure Start centres and housing benefit.
And before you say anything, yes debt is invariably a lifestyle choice. Having children is a lifestyle choice full stop. Debt comes from living beyond your means - be that because they've bought a house they can't afford or they've spent too much on their credit cards. I appreciate that there are some circumstances where people get into debt through no fault of their own, but you make no mention of this, so I have no reason to believe that it is the case.
I don't understand why it's ok for children of those with debts to be punished for their parents living outside of their means, but it's perfectly ok to do the opposite for children from a low income, some would say that this is also a lifestyle choice to some extent. Having a child when you're earning less then 20k could be deemed a poor lifestyle choice judging by your definition. I just don't understand how you can just dismiss it, with your parents got themselves in debt, so you'll have to suck it up!
why should the student be punished because their parents made bad 'lifestyle choices' as you put it. At 19/20/21 you're allegedly an adult. Can't understand how at 20+ the government expect your parents to still give you a weekly allowance.
Really depends on personal circumstances. A single mother on 24k with tax credits/single person discounts is going to be able to provide more for her child at university than a couple on 60k combined with a mortgage and 3 kids. Yet the former will be lavished with the full grant and a ****load of bursaries and financial scholarships. It's silly to assume that one size fits all.
(edited 11 years ago)
Original post by NoSpeakNewSpeak
My parents make quite a lot of money combined. However, they're massively in debt and on top of that they have my younger siblings to provide for. I haven't had any money off them since I was 16 years old. I've had a part time job since then and I've paid them rent which pays for my food and board every week. They would in no way be able to give me money for university. However, after typing in my details it turns out i'd only be entitled to:
£5963 maintenance loan.
and no maintenance grant.
And thats only because I want to go to university in London! If I wanted to go anywhere else in the UK it would be much less!!! My accommodation alone will be a good 4.5K a year!!
Nonetheless, my best friend lives with her Mum who gets less than 25K but has a Dad who she doesn't live with who gets a lot of money and tells her he'll give her £200 a month for university. And yet, she's been offered:
£5998 maintenance loan
£3354 maintenance grant
It makes me physically sick! I'm mean sure maybe give her a maintenance grant because her Mother owns less...but why isn't my loan the same as her loan and grant combined!!!!
I'm so upset by all of this. I rang student finance and they said the only thing i can do is get a job. Which of course I'll do. I'm very willing to. In fact I have a job now. But jobs are often distracting when at uni and I just feel it sad that people like me will be forced to get them, when others, like my friend will be having a much easier student life.
£5963 maintenance loan.
and no maintenance grant.
And thats only because I want to go to university in London! If I wanted to go anywhere else in the UK it would be much less!!! My accommodation alone will be a good 4.5K a year!!
Nonetheless, my best friend lives with her Mum who gets less than 25K but has a Dad who she doesn't live with who gets a lot of money and tells her he'll give her £200 a month for university. And yet, she's been offered:
£5998 maintenance loan
£3354 maintenance grant
It makes me physically sick! I'm mean sure maybe give her a maintenance grant because her Mother owns less...but why isn't my loan the same as her loan and grant combined!!!!
I'm so upset by all of this. I rang student finance and they said the only thing i can do is get a job. Which of course I'll do. I'm very willing to. In fact I have a job now. But jobs are often distracting when at uni and I just feel it sad that people like me will be forced to get them, when others, like my friend will be having a much easier student life.
Welcome to the wonderful world of student finance, it's a deeply unfair system and needs a complete overhaul.
Almost all of the students I know who are out 3 nights a week, spending a huge amount of money on things they don't need, just wasting cash, are all from "low income" families, while without exception the students I know who are struggling for money (like me) are from "high income" families.
It's all bull****, but there's nothing you can do about it so you've simply got to knuckle down, accept it, and get on with things unfortunately.
Original post by NoSpeakNewSpeak
My parents make quite a lot of money combined. However, they're massively in debt and on top of that they have my younger siblings to provide for. I haven't had any money off them since I was 16 years old. I've had a part time job since then and I've paid them rent which pays for my food and board every week. They would in no way be able to give me money for university. However, after typing in my details it turns out i'd only be entitled to:
£5963 maintenance loan.
and no maintenance grant.
And thats only because I want to go to university in London! If I wanted to go anywhere else in the UK it would be much less!!! My accommodation alone will be a good 4.5K a year!!
Nonetheless, my best friend lives with her Mum who gets less than 25K but has a Dad who she doesn't live with who gets a lot of money and tells her he'll give her £200 a month for university. And yet, she's been offered:
£5998 maintenance loan
£3354 maintenance grant
It makes me physically sick! I'm mean sure maybe give her a maintenance grant because her Mother owns less...but why isn't my loan the same as her loan and grant combined!!!!
I'm so upset by all of this. I rang student finance and they said the only thing i can do is get a job. Which of course I'll do. I'm very willing to. In fact I have a job now. But jobs are often distracting when at uni and I just feel it sad that people like me will be forced to get them, when others, like my friend will be having a much easier student life.
£5963 maintenance loan.
and no maintenance grant.
And thats only because I want to go to university in London! If I wanted to go anywhere else in the UK it would be much less!!! My accommodation alone will be a good 4.5K a year!!
Nonetheless, my best friend lives with her Mum who gets less than 25K but has a Dad who she doesn't live with who gets a lot of money and tells her he'll give her £200 a month for university. And yet, she's been offered:
£5998 maintenance loan
£3354 maintenance grant
It makes me physically sick! I'm mean sure maybe give her a maintenance grant because her Mother owns less...but why isn't my loan the same as her loan and grant combined!!!!
I'm so upset by all of this. I rang student finance and they said the only thing i can do is get a job. Which of course I'll do. I'm very willing to. In fact I have a job now. But jobs are often distracting when at uni and I just feel it sad that people like me will be forced to get them, when others, like my friend will be having a much easier student life.
I find it really annoying as I'm in student halls and I have pretty much no money. I still owe my rent as my student finance isn't enough. My father earns under 24000 but regardless of that for many people who's parents earn more they generally support a more expensive lifestyle relative to their wage, meaning they have no more spare cash to help their kids through uni as my father.
Long story short if I don't get another job I'm leaving uni. I know I can work back home.
Original post by Cutmeloose
I don't understand this point at all. The vast majority of 18 years old I know,, exclud the wealthy do not get 'pocket money' from their parents hence why many work part time while they study. Aside from the obvious i.e accommodation, internet, odd bit of food and heating. These are expenses however which are likely to be incurred regardless unless you're a only child. , My parents literally give me NO money, If anything, I help them out. My parents expenditure will be the exact same, when I leave, due to siblings, me leaving is not going to cause a windfall in disposable income. You're not even entitled to any financial based scholarships or bursaries either.
No, someone 18 or over might not get "pocket money". However, they usually live with their parents before going to university, don't they? The parents will be paying food and bills. Therefore they are not independent and are relying on their parents for support.
Back in the day (up to the Blair government in the late 1990s) there were universal grants and no tuition fees. However, we have far more students going to university now and the government has less money.
It's not an ideal system and I'm sympathetic that it does penalise those from comfortable, but not wealthy, backgrounds. I'm from a similar background. When I started university my household income was probably 40k and my older brother was also at university. However. you have to just get on with it. It's not unreasonable for the government to expect those from better off backgrounds to receive at least some parental support. If the student still gets into financial difficulty during the degree then there's still support there such as Access to Learning, hardship payments and emergency loans.
Original post by Cutmeloose
I don't understand why it's ok for children of those with debts to be punished for their parents living outside of their means, but it's perfectly ok to do the opposite for children from a low income, some would say that this is also a lifestyle choice to some extent. Having a child when you're earning less then 20k could be deemed a poor lifestyle choice judging by your definition. I just don't understand how you can just dismiss it, with your parents got themselves in debt, so you'll have to suck it up!
Just because a person is earning an average or below average salary now, doesn't mean they were earning that amount 18 years ago when they had the child. People can lose jobs or have to change careers. They can have accidents which lead to illness or disability and need to give up work/change to a low paying job or the main household owner can die...
Also social mobility comes into this. Students from less well off backgrounds are less likely go to university (and, once there, stay in university). It therefore makes sense to direct financial support to those whose families are earning less. This can then lead to social mobility.
Really depends on personal circumstances. A single mother on 24k with tax credits/single person discounts is going to be able to provide more for her child at university than a couple on 60k combined with a mortgage and 3 kids. Yet the former will be lavished with the full grant and a ****load of bursaries and financial scholarships. It's silly to assume that one size fits all.
Having done a quick calculation the take home pay isn't substantially different, so I wouldn't say the single mother will be able to provide more support.
Moreoever the single mother on 24k will still have a rent or mortgage to pay and it is possible that, if renting, this is more than the mortgage the affluent couple have. On an income of 24k she probably won't get much, if any, housing benefit.
I also think number of dependents is taken into account, although I might be wrong. It certainly was when I started university. My parents earned above the threshold (meaning that I was expected to meet the full tuition fee*). However, as my parents had two children at university this was taken into account and I received a small tuition grant. Whether this is taken into account for the maintenance loan I don't know.
*This was 2004 so pre-top up fees and tuition fee loans.
Original post by Magdatrix >_<
Not including my rent I have to live on £1700 a year. It is possible, and you shouldn't worry about it too much.
I realise that your issue is with the 'fairness' of student finance, and I agree that it seems unfair. I have always thought that student finance should be based on the STUDENT's income, not the parents. Just because someone's parents earn a certain amount, doesn't mean they have that amount available to give to their 'kids' who are technically adults anyway!
I realise that your issue is with the 'fairness' of student finance, and I agree that it seems unfair. I have always thought that student finance should be based on the STUDENT's income, not the parents. Just because someone's parents earn a certain amount, doesn't mean they have that amount available to give to their 'kids' who are technically adults anyway!
Im sorry but that's nonsense. The majority of students from wealthy/ decent income backgrounds get good financial support from their parents, which is how it should be. The OPs case is unfair, but also uncommon. There should be some sort of appeals procedure but then I guess they'll have all sorts of families wanting more, unneeded money. It's tricky.
How should it be based on students income when they are in full time education?
What piss me off most, for me is I'll be 24 when I start but 25 within two months of starting but my first still got to be based on my parents income. Which is why because am working full time currently am putting away as much as I can. As I can't be bothered to have my parents income taking into account just because am a couple month shy of being 25. So am taking the basic maintenance loan and saving as much as i can. Second year and third year should be easier as it be based on what I earned. So I should get near full maintenance loan and grant. So am only be getting 3575 which isn't much.
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I do think it's unfair to some students in some specific circumstances.
However, unfortunately, life isn't always fair and the government is allowed to means test student loans. If you think this is wrong, why not try and do something about it- write to your MP, organise a campaign.
It is possible to work around your studies, or over the long summer holidays you will have at most universities. This is the only option for lots of students, not just those in your individual situation.
However, I do think maintenance loans have not kept pace with the price of renting and some university halls are extremely expensive, even the cheapest options. In some ways, this amounts to selection by family income, as many students will be put off by the expensive price of accomadation they cannot afford.
However, unfortunately, life isn't always fair and the government is allowed to means test student loans. If you think this is wrong, why not try and do something about it- write to your MP, organise a campaign.
It is possible to work around your studies, or over the long summer holidays you will have at most universities. This is the only option for lots of students, not just those in your individual situation.
However, I do think maintenance loans have not kept pace with the price of renting and some university halls are extremely expensive, even the cheapest options. In some ways, this amounts to selection by family income, as many students will be put off by the expensive price of accomadation they cannot afford.
They should just give out what they give to the poorest students to everyone but in loan form the loan is generous anyway and the government (the taxpayer) gets back there investment no one should get grants. And I'm a poor student on the maximum grant anyway. It's just it seems bad that the government spends money on uni students when there are people without the opportunity to do something that will drastically raise there income.
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