Keane or Vieira?
The excellent recent ITV 'Best of Enemies' thing purposely avoided making a like for like comparison. But which player was better?
Have seen Vieira much more than Keane(seen about 5 times) and PV was the much more accomplished attacking player with a quickly forgotten passing range and drive... Physically PV had the advantage also but RK was like a pitbull, tough as a piece of old leather. When it came to the crunch, PV was the better player with a more varied game although I guess RK has the edge 1v1, a man for the big occasion(PV did go missing often tbh), although PV was the better player both defensively and offensively.
Discuss.
Have seen Vieira much more than Keane(seen about 5 times) and PV was the much more accomplished attacking player with a quickly forgotten passing range and drive... Physically PV had the advantage also but RK was like a pitbull, tough as a piece of old leather. When it came to the crunch, PV was the better player with a more varied game although I guess RK has the edge 1v1, a man for the big occasion(PV did go missing often tbh), although PV was the better player both defensively and offensively.
Discuss.
(edited 10 years ago)
Difficult one for me as Keano was one of my footballing heroes growing up but I think overall Vieira was a shade ahead of him. Some of it was down to their temperaments. Vieira was a dirty player and got himself sent off a fair share of times like Keane but Vieira was more calculating and in control. Keano would get the red mist and turn in to a psycho and make bad decisions.
I think in terms of raw ability Vieira was a fair bit ahead of Keane. He was a much more natural cultured passer of the ball and his extra height gave him an advantage as well, he could lollop around the field, reach out a boot and nick the ball off somebody where Keane would have to run everywhere at 90 miles an hour and slide in to people. Given that in terms of overall influence in the Premier League they were neck and neck for many years, thats got to be respect to Keane for level pegging with a guy with more talent.
They both presented problems off the field tbh. One thing people often forget about Vieira was that he was often quietly disruptive every off season because he was surrounded by transfer stories linking him to moves abroad but also even to Man United. Year after year United were supposed to be in for him. Vieira never seemed to rule himself out of these moves, I think he liked cultivating the idea that he was in demand and Arsenal shouldn't take him for granted. If Keane had been linked with Arsenal I bet he would have come out and said it was a load of rubbish and he was staying at United. I'm sure I remember about 10 years ago hearing some phone in with Arsenal fan saying stuff like "we love Paddy but we can't go through this circus every year, if he wants to go let him go".
Keane was also good at looking after his own interests but he kept the fans onside eg there was a chant at Old Trafford "we all agree, Keano is worth more than Edwards" chant on the terraces when he was pushing for an improved contract. He kept the fans onside by insisting on his loyalty to United, to the fans, even if he would spout off about the prawn sandwich brigade etc.
Where Keano was not helpful IMO is the way he treated his teammates. It's one thing being a driven and inspiring leader, but I don't think Keane was that. He was a driven player, and he led from the front, but I don't think he was a great leader in the way that say Tony Adams or Lothar Matthaus was. From reading various players' autobiographies it seems like Keane went out of his way to intimidate his teammates and make them feel crap about themselves. When new players joined United he would smash passes at them and if they slightly miscontrolled them he would lay in to them saying this is United now, we have higher standards. If any of his teammates were struggling with confidence Keane wouldn't be helping support them, he would shout at them that they were rubbish. Probably all part of making himself feel better at the expense of his mates. Also I remember reading I think Lee Sharpe's book where Sharpe - who was one of Keane's best mates in the early days - had various stories of having to try and calm Keane down from him wanting to pick fights with his teammates when drunk, he was always probing for players personal weaknesses....Gary Pallister who was one of Keane/Sharpe's original clique buddies stopped talking to him because Keane kept going on about stuff about his wife.
I think Keane was a superb player for United but tbh I wish he had just realised sometimes that he was part of a team and he was not bigger than the great players around him. I also think deep down (and I hate saying this) that Keane maybe thought he was better than he actually was. He has never been short of an opinion on his former teammates: in his book he said things implying Cantona, Stam and Schmeichel were overrated, and he's said that stuff about Giggs too "just because you have a great career doesn't mean you were a great player". I nearly fell off my chair when I heard Keane moaning about SAF's book when he said "the gaffer goes on about loyalty but what about his loyalty to those players that won him all those trophies"....FFS Keano you have never been short of spouting off about your own ex teammates.
Because of what he was like off the field, Keane was always treading a fine line where he had to be good - really good - to avoid the negatives of his behaviour outweighing the positives of what he contributed to United. Most of the time those positives outweighed it but the way it ended with SAF....that was always on the cards, you knew when he started to go past his best as a player Fergie would have him out. The same happened with Paul Ince a decade earlier.
Overall would I have swapped Vieira for Keane at United.....loyalty to a hero means most United fans would not agree with me here but personally I would. Keane would not have worked under Wenger at Arsenal so he would have ended up somewhere else, if United had Vieira I think you could have seen nine titles in a row at Old Trafford because Arsenal would not have won those three titles they did and nobody else would have challenged United with PV.
I think in terms of raw ability Vieira was a fair bit ahead of Keane. He was a much more natural cultured passer of the ball and his extra height gave him an advantage as well, he could lollop around the field, reach out a boot and nick the ball off somebody where Keane would have to run everywhere at 90 miles an hour and slide in to people. Given that in terms of overall influence in the Premier League they were neck and neck for many years, thats got to be respect to Keane for level pegging with a guy with more talent.
They both presented problems off the field tbh. One thing people often forget about Vieira was that he was often quietly disruptive every off season because he was surrounded by transfer stories linking him to moves abroad but also even to Man United. Year after year United were supposed to be in for him. Vieira never seemed to rule himself out of these moves, I think he liked cultivating the idea that he was in demand and Arsenal shouldn't take him for granted. If Keane had been linked with Arsenal I bet he would have come out and said it was a load of rubbish and he was staying at United. I'm sure I remember about 10 years ago hearing some phone in with Arsenal fan saying stuff like "we love Paddy but we can't go through this circus every year, if he wants to go let him go".
Keane was also good at looking after his own interests but he kept the fans onside eg there was a chant at Old Trafford "we all agree, Keano is worth more than Edwards" chant on the terraces when he was pushing for an improved contract. He kept the fans onside by insisting on his loyalty to United, to the fans, even if he would spout off about the prawn sandwich brigade etc.
Where Keano was not helpful IMO is the way he treated his teammates. It's one thing being a driven and inspiring leader, but I don't think Keane was that. He was a driven player, and he led from the front, but I don't think he was a great leader in the way that say Tony Adams or Lothar Matthaus was. From reading various players' autobiographies it seems like Keane went out of his way to intimidate his teammates and make them feel crap about themselves. When new players joined United he would smash passes at them and if they slightly miscontrolled them he would lay in to them saying this is United now, we have higher standards. If any of his teammates were struggling with confidence Keane wouldn't be helping support them, he would shout at them that they were rubbish. Probably all part of making himself feel better at the expense of his mates. Also I remember reading I think Lee Sharpe's book where Sharpe - who was one of Keane's best mates in the early days - had various stories of having to try and calm Keane down from him wanting to pick fights with his teammates when drunk, he was always probing for players personal weaknesses....Gary Pallister who was one of Keane/Sharpe's original clique buddies stopped talking to him because Keane kept going on about stuff about his wife.
I think Keane was a superb player for United but tbh I wish he had just realised sometimes that he was part of a team and he was not bigger than the great players around him. I also think deep down (and I hate saying this) that Keane maybe thought he was better than he actually was. He has never been short of an opinion on his former teammates: in his book he said things implying Cantona, Stam and Schmeichel were overrated, and he's said that stuff about Giggs too "just because you have a great career doesn't mean you were a great player". I nearly fell off my chair when I heard Keane moaning about SAF's book when he said "the gaffer goes on about loyalty but what about his loyalty to those players that won him all those trophies"....FFS Keano you have never been short of spouting off about your own ex teammates.
Because of what he was like off the field, Keane was always treading a fine line where he had to be good - really good - to avoid the negatives of his behaviour outweighing the positives of what he contributed to United. Most of the time those positives outweighed it but the way it ended with SAF....that was always on the cards, you knew when he started to go past his best as a player Fergie would have him out. The same happened with Paul Ince a decade earlier.
Overall would I have swapped Vieira for Keane at United.....loyalty to a hero means most United fans would not agree with me here but personally I would. Keane would not have worked under Wenger at Arsenal so he would have ended up somewhere else, if United had Vieira I think you could have seen nine titles in a row at Old Trafford because Arsenal would not have won those three titles they did and nobody else would have challenged United with PV.
Vieira. However, I think Keane always had more desire.
Original post by MagicNMedicine
Where Keano was not helpful IMO is the way he treated his teammates. It's one thing being a driven and inspiring leader, but I don't think Keane was that. He was a driven player, and he led from the front, but I don't think he was a great leader in the way that say Tony Adams or Lothar Matthaus was. From reading various players' autobiographies it seems like Keane went out of his way to intimidate his teammates and make them feel crap about themselves. When new players joined United he would smash passes at them and if they slightly miscontrolled them he would lay in to them saying this is United now, we have higher standards. If any of his teammates were struggling with confidence Keane wouldn't be helping support them, he would shout at them that they were rubbish. Probably all part of making himself feel better at the expense of his mates. Also I remember reading I think Lee Sharpe's book where Sharpe - who was one of Keane's best mates in the early days - had various stories of having to try and calm Keane down from him wanting to pick fights with his teammates when drunk, he was always probing for players personal weaknesses....Gary Pallister who was one of Keane/Sharpe's original clique buddies stopped talking to him because Keane kept going on about stuff about his wife.
I think Keane was a superb player for United but tbh I wish he had just realised sometimes that he was part of a team and he was not bigger than the great players around him. I also think deep down (and I hate saying this) that Keane maybe thought he was better than he actually was. He has never been short of an opinion on his former teammates: in his book he said things implying Cantona, Stam and Schmeichel were overrated, and he's said that stuff about Giggs too "just because you have a great career doesn't mean you were a great player". I nearly fell off my chair when I heard Keane moaning about SAF's book when he said "the gaffer goes on about loyalty but what about his loyalty to those players that won him all those trophies"....FFS Keano you have never been short of spouting off about your own ex teammates.
Because of what he was like off the field, Keane was always treading a fine line where he had to be good - really good - to avoid the negatives of his behaviour outweighing the positives of what he contributed to United. Most of the time those positives outweighed it but the way it ended with SAF....that was always on the cards, you knew when he started to go past his best as a player Fergie would have him out. The same happened with Paul Ince a decade earlier.
Overall would I have swapped Vieira for Keane at United.....loyalty to a hero means most United fans would not agree with me here but personally I would. Keane would not have worked under Wenger at Arsenal so he would have ended up somewhere else, if United had Vieira I think you could have seen nine titles in a row at Old Trafford because Arsenal would not have won those three titles they did and nobody else would have challenged United with PV.
I think Keane was a superb player for United but tbh I wish he had just realised sometimes that he was part of a team and he was not bigger than the great players around him. I also think deep down (and I hate saying this) that Keane maybe thought he was better than he actually was. He has never been short of an opinion on his former teammates: in his book he said things implying Cantona, Stam and Schmeichel were overrated, and he's said that stuff about Giggs too "just because you have a great career doesn't mean you were a great player". I nearly fell off my chair when I heard Keane moaning about SAF's book when he said "the gaffer goes on about loyalty but what about his loyalty to those players that won him all those trophies"....FFS Keano you have never been short of spouting off about your own ex teammates.
Because of what he was like off the field, Keane was always treading a fine line where he had to be good - really good - to avoid the negatives of his behaviour outweighing the positives of what he contributed to United. Most of the time those positives outweighed it but the way it ended with SAF....that was always on the cards, you knew when he started to go past his best as a player Fergie would have him out. The same happened with Paul Ince a decade earlier.
Overall would I have swapped Vieira for Keane at United.....loyalty to a hero means most United fans would not agree with me here but personally I would. Keane would not have worked under Wenger at Arsenal so he would have ended up somewhere else, if United had Vieira I think you could have seen nine titles in a row at Old Trafford because Arsenal would not have won those three titles they did and nobody else would have challenged United with PV.
Agree with the comments here but Keane contradicts himself because his exit was synonymous with the workings of football at top clubs. When Stam was sold, Keane said "players are treated like pieces of meat" so you could say that happened to him aswell. Stam was treated more harshly in terms of his exit yet he doesn't bang on about it. Keane's exit was the best thing that happened because I do think he became intimidating for the younger players who were more fragile; younger players of the early 90s' generation might have accepted Keane but this new generation need protection. You can say SAF's decision was right because of the success achieved after Keane's exit.
On the topic, I'd have Keane. Vieira was probably technically better than Keane but Keane's whole package is something that I'd have in my team.
I'll begrudging concede that Vieira was probably the better player. Keane leadership qualities more than make up for it for me though, Keane got more out of his players and he protected them from other teams better. Sure he was probably not a very nice guy to be around sometimes, he would have scared he ****less, but this approach worked. I can't think of a better football captain than Keane.
Not sure Vieira ever quite hit the heights that Keane did, his performance against Juventus was absolutely incredible.
Not sure Vieira ever quite hit the heights that Keane did, his performance against Juventus was absolutely incredible.
Original post by Aky786UK
Agree with the comments here but Keane contradicts himself because his exit was synonymous with the workings of football at top clubs. When Stam was sold, Keane said "players are treated like pieces of meat" so you could say that happened to him aswell. Stam was treated more harshly in terms of his exit yet he doesn't bang on about it. Keane's exit was the best thing that happened because I do think he became intimidating for the younger players who were more fragile; younger players of the early 90s' generation might have accepted Keane but this new generation need protection. You can say SAF's decision was right because of the success achieved after Keane's exit.
I agree. I also think Keane overstepped his mark in terms of his right to dish it out to everyone else....he wasn't the manager. I did have a chuckle when Keane brought up in his book about Schmeichel always rollicking the defenders and he said that was playing to the supporters, Schmeichel wanting to look like United were reliant on his great goalkeeping because he had to constantly be shouting at his shaky defence, when that defence was class in Bruce/Pallister etc. But Keane did exactly the same IMO.
There were times when Keane's bad discipline cost the team. He talks about Eric Cantona going missing in big games, where was Keane in the 1999 Champions League final? Missing because he was banned.
Where I do think Keane had a point was that United went a bit in to comfort zone after 1999, before Arsenal really hit form in 2001/02, there was not much competition and some United players were resting on their laurels, there was no way Keane would do that.
Guys like Gary Neville, Scholes and Giggs (and to be fair Beckham too) were fantastic professionals that gave everything for United and they didn't seem to feel the need to shout at everyone and put their team mates down. Keano....well he did do the business on the field for United so he will always have everyone's respect but I just think some of the way he carried on was a shame tbh.
Original post by MagicNMedicine
There were times when Keane's bad discipline cost the team. He talks about Eric Cantona going missing in big games, where was Keane in the 1999 Champions League final? Missing because he was banned.
There were times when Keane's bad discipline cost the team. He talks about Eric Cantona going missing in big games, where was Keane in the 1999 Champions League final? Missing because he was banned.
TBF to Keane, he didn't get booked in Turin because of ill-discipline or the red mist occuring it was a loose ball (from Blomqvist IIRC) and he tried to get the ball and brought Zidane down. But tbh, his performance after was majestic and Dietmar Hamann's article about Ballack/Gazza could have used Keane's example instead of the former to show responses in adversity.
Original post by Aky786UK
TBF to Keane, he didn't get booked in Turin because of ill-discipline or the red mist occuring it was a loose ball (from Blomqvist IIRC) and he tried to get the ball and brought Zidane down. But tbh, his performance after was majestic and Dietmar Hamann's article about Ballack/Gazza could have used Keane's example instead of the former to show responses in adversity.
Fair point. One thing you couldn't accuse Keane of ever was self pity. He would not have gone crying like Gazza did. If he was angry or hurting he would take that out by being an even better player.
Original post by MagicNMedicine
Fair point. One thing you couldn't accuse Keane of ever was self pity. He would not have gone crying like Gazza did. If he was angry or hurting he would take that out by being an even better player.
Totally agree. As Keane said in Best of Enemies, it was his job to put in a good shift for Man Utd. You wouldn't praise the postman for delivering your mail. It's his job.
Viera was the better player. At his peak every club in the world would dream of having him. Keane was a great player as well but Viera was on another level. Better defensively, better going forward, better tactical awareness and vision. He was the complete midfielder. I always thought Arsenal let him go too early.
Pretty much what everyone else has said.
Vieira probably more technically gifted (however Keane is underrated in his talent), but I'd rather have Keane in my team any day of the week. He brings those intangibles that you just can't measure in statistics.
Vieira probably more technically gifted (however Keane is underrated in his talent), but I'd rather have Keane in my team any day of the week. He brings those intangibles that you just can't measure in statistics.
Keane every day.
Original post by Aky786UK
TBF to Keane, he didn't get booked in Turin because of ill-discipline or the red mist occuring it was a loose ball (from Blomqvist IIRC) and he tried to get the ball and brought Zidane down. But tbh, his performance after was majestic and Dietmar Hamann's article about Ballack/Gazza could have used Keane's example instead of the former to show responses in adversity.
[video="youtube;t2RVQx8J2Sk"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t2RVQx8J2Sk[/video]
3:22
It doesn't look like a loose ball, it looks like Keane tries to do some sort of skill or dummy but Zidane gets in and nicks it away. Even so it's not the red mist, but it's a pretty stupid challenge to make.
As an Arsenal fan, Keane. I think his desire to win was psychotic, and he is more of a captain I would want rather than Vieira who always flirted with other clubs. Keane would die on the field through giving so much effort and demanding that of those around him. When two players are so evenly matched it comes down to having this heart every single game. But yes, Vieira was a better football player definitely but Keane was the better player overall. He has to be in a certain environment to thrive, however. Utd was the right club for that. I don't think United had the better players in terms of technical talent, I just think they knew how to win football games better. Keane was a big part of that, you cannot measure it in statistics.
Viera was the more technically pleasing to watch player not that Keane was a slouch in that department either but what tips it in Keanes favor is his leadership. He would bleed out for United and was just crazy the look in his eyes. Can't really think of a better captain than him.
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