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Should Britain leave the EU?
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numero sept
Then you are NOT a libertarian then. A libertarian government MUST be tied down by a constitution that protects liberty. Our current "constitution" does nothing of the sort.
That's very debatable. In fact, it's done a bloody good job of it so far. Although to be honest, in any democratic state I believe liberty is threatened.
Who the **** cares? I want my OWN liberty not some doofus from New Zealand.
Well then that's not Libertarianism, it's not even politics - it's just self-interest. Libertarianism was built up from Utilitarianism and similar philosophical schools of thought which make the equality of utility a significant point - all must share in it to make it so.
In every society there has always been people who have huge deals of freedom (usually the dictators and leaders). The difference between them and a Libertarian society is that we seek to apply this to everybody.
And it does limit your liberty somewhat - so long as we are not unified with people from around the world, our freedom to trade and deal with them is limited.
Greyhound02
I dont see how begging at americas heel would be the automatic alternative. The reason why americans laugh at us is because we claim 2 b a free, sovereign nation but brussels tells this country what it can and cant do, it has very little to do with relative power between us and the USA. I didnt ever imply that u said the EU was perfect, what I will say though is that u seem 2 b under the illusion that the EU can be reformed and come good in the end. My opinion is that it can't: it's rotten to the core, it's a piece of something unrepeatable, it stinks, it must be got rid of like last week's trash.
At least we're more able to leave the EU than the American states are able to leave their supposedly free federation. Unlike in America, I don't see the EU army marching in if we attempt to secede.
The EU cannot be reformed, yet the Russian government can be turned from Communist to Capitalist, or the British government which started off as absolutist monarchies and evolved into a free and democratic country?
I'd like Britain to leave the EU for the following reasons:
1. What has the EU done for me? I don't see how my life has been improved by being part of it, so I'd leave.
2. Bureaucracy. In my mind, this is hardly ever a good thing, so why have an optional extra level of it that exists in a country whose capital city is a winter vegetable?
3. Britain ran itself just fine for a long time. As I remember we had quite a successful empire at one point, we didn't need much outside help with that?
4. I'd imagine it makes our Government, of whatever political party, more accountable? I'd think that would be nice, people might not balls things up as much. The Government would also know that the good people of Britain couldn't blame things on the mysterious "EEC" but only on them, so they might pull their socks up. Wouldn't that be swell.
1. What has the EU done for me? I don't see how my life has been improved by being part of it, so I'd leave.
2. Bureaucracy. In my mind, this is hardly ever a good thing, so why have an optional extra level of it that exists in a country whose capital city is a winter vegetable?
3. Britain ran itself just fine for a long time. As I remember we had quite a successful empire at one point, we didn't need much outside help with that?
4. I'd imagine it makes our Government, of whatever political party, more accountable? I'd think that would be nice, people might not balls things up as much. The Government would also know that the good people of Britain couldn't blame things on the mysterious "EEC" but only on them, so they might pull their socks up. Wouldn't that be swell.
LibertineNorth
Of course, since government is force. You didn't know this, yet claim to be a libertarian?
Well then that's not Libertarianism, it's not even politics - it's just self-interest. Libertarianism was built up from Utilitarianism and similar philosophical schools of thought which make the equality of utility a significant point - all must share in it to make it so.
What?! People have their own lives to lead and can't spend their entire lives "being altruistic"!
In every society there has always been people who have huge deals of freedom (usually the dictators and leaders). The difference between them and a Libertarian society is that we seek to apply this to everybody.
Yes and SO ****ING WHAT!?! A free society HAS NO MEANING if not everybody in that society can experience freedom.And it does limit your liberty somewhat - so long as we are not unified with people from around the world, our freedom to trade and deal with them is limited.
WHat?! The UK isn't "unified" with Brazil or China, but that doesn't mean we can't trade with them. People acting out of self-interest would always seek to trade with others, dip**** "Commonwealth" or not.
LibertineNorth
That's very debatable. In fact, it's done a bloody good job of it so far. Although to be honest, in any democratic state I believe liberty is threatened.
Well then that's not Libertarianism, it's not even politics - it's just self-interest. Libertarianism was built up from Utilitarianism and similar philosophical schools of thought which make the equality of utility a significant point - all must share in it to make it so.
In every society there has always been people who have huge deals of freedom (usually the dictators and leaders). The difference between them and a Libertarian society is that we seek to apply this to everybody.
And it does limit your liberty somewhat - so long as we are not unified with people from around the world, our freedom to trade and deal with them is limited.
At least we're more able to leave the EU than the American states are able to leave their supposedly free federation. Unlike in America, I don't see the EU army marching in if we attempt to secede.
The EU cannot be reformed, yet the Russian government can be turned from Communist to Capitalist, or the British government which started off as absolutist monarchies and evolved into a free and democratic country?
Well then that's not Libertarianism, it's not even politics - it's just self-interest. Libertarianism was built up from Utilitarianism and similar philosophical schools of thought which make the equality of utility a significant point - all must share in it to make it so.
In every society there has always been people who have huge deals of freedom (usually the dictators and leaders). The difference between them and a Libertarian society is that we seek to apply this to everybody.
And it does limit your liberty somewhat - so long as we are not unified with people from around the world, our freedom to trade and deal with them is limited.
At least we're more able to leave the EU than the American states are able to leave their supposedly free federation. Unlike in America, I don't see the EU army marching in if we attempt to secede.
The EU cannot be reformed, yet the Russian government can be turned from Communist to Capitalist, or the British government which started off as absolutist monarchies and evolved into a free and democratic country?
If the EU was reformed from what it currently is: utterly corrupt, incredibly bloated, damaging competitiveness and business, and full of unelected, self-important, incompetent career politicians to the opposite of all these would we really call it the EU anymore? I imagine it wouldn't be. I accept that in a spectrum of worldly possibilities, EU reform IS possible, but it is so unlikely that I think Britain is flogging a dead horse here. I strongly think that if Britain, and most importantly its money that the EU relies so much on, left it would give the EU the earthquake moment it needs to shake it out of the disasterous status quo and make positive improvements. To use your metaphors, if the EU is going to move from an absolute monarchy to a free democracy and communist to capitalist system, then maybe someone needs to seriously threaten to take the 'nuclear option' and leave, and do so if necessary.
numero sept
Of course, since government is force. You didn't know this, yet claim to be a libertarian?
It is entirely irrelevant - illegitimate force is all I worry about and force in the pursuit of morally justifiable goals is quite alright by me. Hence I am a Libertarian and not an anarchist.
Yes and SO ****ING WHAT!?! A free society HAS NO MEANING if not everybody in that society can experience freedom.Exactly - I cannot see 'society' as being free unless we endeavour to support the freedom of others and occasionally use force to that end. And as a person who reject narrow minded nationalism, and holds any sort of nationalistic distinction in politics to be an affront to equality, I cannot support 'I'm Alright Jack, I live in Britain' attitude to liberty. In fact, I'd go so far as to say it disgusts me.
WHat?! The UK isn't "unified" with Brazil or China, but that doesn't mean we can't trade with them. People acting out of self-interest would always seek to trade with others, dip**** "Commonwealth" or not.
That's where you're wrong. In case you haven't noticed, within the EU I can freely move goods, workers and establish myself within any member-state. I cannot do this, freely, in either Brazil or China. I can trade with them to some degree, but not freely.
If we were a Libertarian state and they did not, they wouldn't have the freedom to act out of self-interest since their tyrannical governments would be involving themselves - and with force being exerted on a contract between me and said Johnny Foreigner (albeit from his side) I would still suffer.
SolInvictus
Thats why I favour bringing back the Stuarts.
It would help if anybody actually knew a rightful Stewart heir. The one who the Jacobites (yes, that mighty horde) used to support was quite recently outed as a rather inartful fraudster.
Greyhound02
To use your metaphors, if the EU is going to move from an absolute monarchy to a free democracy and communist to capitalist system, then maybe someone needs to seriously threaten to take the 'nuclear option' and leave, and do so if necessary.
I am, as at least a semi-democrat, opposed to the idea of secession. As such, I would see that as a last resort (although I am not entirely ruling that out).
However I believe it can be cured in a far easier way. If the government of the UK and some of the other European nations had the will, they could easily bring about change. But they don't - and yet we, as the European public, continue to elect them. It's really our fault.
LibertineNorth
It is entirely irrelevant - illegitimate force is all I worry about and force in the pursuit of morally justifiable goals is quite alright by me. Hence I am a Libertarian and not an anarchist.
No, you're just some dip**** who jumps on the bandwagon to look cool. I OPPOSE FORCE, since this is the BASIS of libertarianism!
Exactly - I cannot see 'society' as being free unless we endeavour to support the freedom of others and occasionally use force to that end. And as a person who reject narrow minded nationalism, and holds any sort of nationalistic distinction in politics to be an affront to equality, I cannot support 'I'm Alright Jack, I live in Britain' attitude to liberty. In fact, I'd go so far as to say it disgusts me.
I have my OWN life to lead. I don't have to succumb to the whim of every ****wit Johnny Foreigner.
That's where you're wrong. In case you haven't noticed, within the EU I can freely move goods, workers and establish myself within any member-state. I cannot do this, freely, in either Brazil or China. I can trade with them to some degree, but not freely.
So? You said that "trade wouldn't be as free". I'm saying that's bull****. People in Brazil and China still want goods and services and people to provide those goods and services.
If we were a Libertarian state and they did not, they wouldn't have the freedom to act out of self-interest since their tyrannical governments would be involving themselves - and with force being exerted on a contract between me and said Johnny Foreigner (albeit from his side) I would still suffer.
Oh **** off.
It would help if anybody actually knew a rightful Stewart heir. The one who the Jacobites (yes, that mighty horde) used to support was quite recently outed as a rather inartful fraudster.
I am, as at least a semi-democrat, opposed to the idea of secession. As such, I would see that as a last resort (although I am not entirely ruling that out).
However I believe it can be cured in a far easier way. If the government of the UK and some of the other European nations had the will, they could easily bring about change. But they don't - and yet we, as the European public, continue to elect them. It's really our fault.
LibertineNorth
I am, as at least a semi-democrat, opposed to the idea of secession. As such, I would see that as a last resort (although I am not entirely ruling that out).
However I believe it can be cured in a far easier way. If the government of the UK and some of the other European nations had the will, they could easily bring about change. But they don't - and yet we, as the European public, continue to elect them. It's really our fault.
I am, as at least a semi-democrat, opposed to the idea of secession. As such, I would see that as a last resort (although I am not entirely ruling that out).
However I believe it can be cured in a far easier way. If the government of the UK and some of the other European nations had the will, they could easily bring about change. But they don't - and yet we, as the European public, continue to elect them. It's really our fault.
Even if Britain and a few other governments (probably those of sweden, denmark, and another 'big' member state would be required, such as germany) did have the 'will' to reform the EU, I think their attempts would hit a brick wall of opposition from the EU bureaucrats, jobsworths, lawyers, lobbyists and others who ride the EU gravy train, to the point where someone in the government would say "these attempts at reform just aren't doing anything, pulling out is the only option left". I do understand what your saying, but I think maybe you are underestimating just what would be done to keep Britain in the EU for strategic and financial reasons. My point is this: why on earth would all those aforementioned bureaucats, jobsworths, etc acquiese to the most fundamental reform of the EU when they would lose from it. If nobody seriously threatened to quit, why would they do it? Only if someone has the balls to quit, would these contemptible people acquiesce reform.
Greyhound02
My point is this: why on earth would all those aforementioned bureaucats, jobsworths, etc acquiese to the most fundamental reform of the EU when they would lose from it. If nobody seriously threatened to quit, why would they do it? Only if someone has the balls to quit, would these contemptible people acquiesce reform.
Well that's a rather damning indictment for any state. I suppose you could say that any sort of liberty could never be introduced in Britain for the same reasons - after all, no one can maintain the status quo like Britain's Sir Humphreys.
I think we're in danger of turning Libertarianist politics into some sort of revoluntionary nonsense where we feel the need to smash every state and every institution of our 'neo-socialist oppressors'. To paraphrase Disraeli, I am a conservative to preserve all that is good in our constitution and a radical to alter all that is bad... admittedly in his day he didn't have the EU, but I generally apply the same principles.
If we could reform, we should, and yes maybe what you say is necessary - but I don't think we would be benefited from pulling out in the meantime. I doubt it'd make much difference to anything. As for opposition, that bridge should be crossed when we come to it.
numero sept
No, you're just some dip**** who jumps on the bandwagon to look cool. I OPPOSE FORCE, since this is the BASIS of libertarianism!
Oh yes, because being a Tory-boy Libertarian who likes Thatcher and reads Hayek is soooo cool, particularly in Scotland.
I have my OWN life to lead. I don't have to succumb to the whim of every ****wit Johnny Foreigner.
Well what I am then saying is that you don't oppose force, you only oppose it when it suits you. You're not a Libertarian, simply a greedy bastard.
So? You said that "trade wouldn't be as free". I'm saying that's bull****. People in Brazil and China still want goods and services and people to provide those goods and services.
But they are not free to trade them on free and equal terms.
LibertineNorth
Oh yes, because being a Tory-boy Libertarian who likes Thatcher and reads Hayek is soooo cool, particularly in Scotland.
Thatcher? Tory? No thanks.
Well what I am then saying is that you don't oppose force, you only oppose it when it suits you. You're not a Libertarian, simply a greedy bastard.
I oppose force against the person and property, since it undermines one's self-ownership. But that doesn't mean I must live other people's battles ahead of living my OWN life.
But they are not free to trade them on free and equal terms.
Why not? The simple demand for goods and services is enough.
I can't pretend to understand the economic benifits of the EU though I am sure they exist.
However I don't like the idea of a unified Europe, I don't even like the fact that the european union is above the united kingdom on our passports.
Soooooooo until someone educates me on the merits of the EU ( something I can't be bothered to do myself) Im against it.
However I don't like the idea of a unified Europe, I don't even like the fact that the european union is above the united kingdom on our passports.
Soooooooo until someone educates me on the merits of the EU ( something I can't be bothered to do myself) Im against it.
Leave the EU.
I think it is incredably naive and unrealistic to assume that if we leave the EU, Europe will ostracise (I know I can't spell) us. We are a powerful ally, a stable nation to trade with and one with a powerful currency. The only justification for making life "difficult" for us once we left the EU would be vengence, and I don't believe the politicans are *that* petty. And if they are.... all the more reason the leave, no?
Are the benifits of leaving - boarder control, sovereignity back with parliament (and therefore the ability to make our own legislation again, unhindered by external powers), no pressure to join the Euro.... etc etc. We would be our own nation. Whats bad about that?
I think it is incredably naive and unrealistic to assume that if we leave the EU, Europe will ostracise (I know I can't spell) us. We are a powerful ally, a stable nation to trade with and one with a powerful currency. The only justification for making life "difficult" for us once we left the EU would be vengence, and I don't believe the politicans are *that* petty. And if they are.... all the more reason the leave, no?
Are the benifits of leaving - boarder control, sovereignity back with parliament (and therefore the ability to make our own legislation again, unhindered by external powers), no pressure to join the Euro.... etc etc. We would be our own nation. Whats bad about that?
Schmokie Dragon
Are the benifits of leaving - boarder control,
Whoop-te-do, we can keep the wogs at bay!
Don't let it worry you that some parts of the country are positively crying out for population growth.
sovereignity back with parliament (and therefore the ability to make our own legislation again, unhindered by external powers)
The EU isn't external. We elect members to its bodies. We are an integral part of the EU.
, no pressure to join the Euro....
I've not been pressured. Have you?
I won't happen anyway.
Whats bad about that?
A mentality that always looks out for the interest of small nation-states not doing anything good for the world at large, not to mention the horrible situation of condoning nationalism.
EU membership costs British people £873 a year, EACH!!
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=403091&in_page_id=1770
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=403091&in_page_id=1770
happybob
EU membership costs British people £873 a year, EACH!!
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=403091&in_page_id=1770
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=403091&in_page_id=1770
the report, by the right-wing Bruges Group think-tank
So THEY don't have an agenda then.
LibertineNorth
Whoop-te-do, we can keep the wogs at bay!
Don't let it worry you that some parts of the country are positively crying out for population growth.
The EU isn't external. We elect members to its bodies. We are an integral part of the EU.
I've not been pressured. Have you?
I won't happen anyway.
I am not the government. Odd that.
A mentality that always looks out for the interest of small nation-states not doing anything good for the world at large, not to mention the horrible situation of condoning nationalism.
Sorry, I just happen to be of nationalistic inclination. I don't care much for the world at large, nor what my nation might contribute. I rather hope that people learn to accept eachother as human beings, but I don't need to invite them into my country to do that. Britain really doesn't need more people. Really, really doesnt.
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