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The Israel/Palestine Conflict Mk. IV

Israelis Protesting AGAINST ceasefire.

http://m.aljazeera.com/story/201481543016447317

Yes, you read that right, Israelis are protesting against the ceasefire. That shows you the typical bloodthirsty mentality of the average Zionist.

(edited 9 years ago)

Reply 5381

Skip_Snip

3

Well, Hamas will obviously violate it before long anyway.

Reply 5382

seohyun

8

Original post by Skip_Snip

Well, Hamas will obviously violate it before long anyway.

You're right, Palestinians should just sit there and put up with the illegal occupation of their land as Israel continues announcing new illegal settlements.

Reply 5383

tsr1269

3

Original post by UniOfLife

I don't care which map you use so long as it is reliable. There are also figures I presented which are more useful than looking at a map and guessing. As I have said before quite clearly - present whatever evidence you want.

Thank you.

I have concluded the preliminary stage of the requested research project and I will share with you my findings below. However, in the interests of impartiality and due diligence, I shall first list my process and then present my findings (which are mostly visual in nature).

Title: Gaza's "empty spaces"...

List of sources used:

a) Google Maps (For Israel and Gaza)
b) How Far it is between (To calculate distances)
d) HAMAS Arsenal (To examine capabilities and estimate weapons)
c) Radius around a point (To calculate the ranges of the various rockets)

Programs Used:

Chrome (To access the net)
Paint (For some rudimentary drawings)

Steps:

a) Obtain the latest image of Gaza and Israel (both map and terrain)

b) Copy and Paste Print screened Image into Paint and start highlighting areas which are populated (Effort reproduced below):

RED - Densely populated areas (Urban)
ORANGE - A little less populated area ("suburbs" one might say)
PURPLE - Israeli imposed buffer zone (up to 1KM)*
BLUE - Israeli buffer zone during Op PE (2014 - Up to 3KM)*

*To work this out, I calculated the distance between Beit Lahiya and Beit Hanun (approx 3KM) and calculated half the distance betwwen Bureij and Al Maghazi (approx 1KM) - Distance Scales are top left.

Finding - There are only one or two places (essentially the uncoloured parts which illustrates the not heavily populated areas). The first being between Nusreiyat and Wahsh and the second being Deir al Salah and Rafah, towards the east of Khan Yunis.

c) Copy and Paste the Israeli map (see below) showing the areas which are not populated.

RED - NOT populated

Finding - As one can see, the uncoloured areas indicate population density as one might expect around Bersheba, Sderot, Ashdod, Tel Aviv and Ashkelon.

d) Then one has to get the array of rocket arsenal that Al Qassam possesses which is reproduced below:

Finding - For ease of data entry, I split the above rockets into 4 groups, taking the uppermost range of the capability of the rocket in the group:

1) Qassams (4KM - 16KM)
2) Grad + W1SE (18KM - 40KM)
3) Fajr (75KM)
4) M302 (150KM)

e) I then applied the ranges above, using the Radius map finder, from the recommended firing places and my results are produced below.

Range of M302 (150KM) (Rocket Count = 40-80):

Finding - This can hit the outskirts of Haifa, Amman and Petra.

Range of Fajr (75KM) (Rocket Count = A couple hundred):

Finding - This rocket can hit the outskirts of Tel Aviv and Jerusalem.

Range of Grad and W1SE (18KM-40KM) (Rocket Count = Less than 1,000):

Finding - This brings into range, the outskirts of Ashdod and Bersheba.

Range of Qassam rockets (4KM-16KM) (Rocket Count = Thousands):

Finding - The outskirts of Sderot and EnHabsor can be a reasonable target.

f) Concluding remarks:

Using the data above, we can reasonably conclude that your proposal that Al Qassam should fire rockets from those areas which are not populated is a ridiculous idea as:

1) The land from which to fire rockets is effectively two places (both in Western Gaza and away from the border of Israel).

2) If they do manage to fire rockets from there, it will be inefficient as they cannot hit anything (it will only hit the outskirts of the targets).

3) Even if they were to waste a precious M302 on Sderot, it will probably be knocked down by the Iron Dome.

Having evaluated the above and taken into consideration the evidence presented above, it seems that the best place from which to fire rockets is from civilian populated areas as it would be:

1) Efficient
2) Economical
3) Feasible.

Whether this is just a coincidence or deliberately engineered is a matter of debate...

No doubt you will wish to take issue with a couple of statements presented here, but take your time, chew it over and get back to me with your critique. As I have indicated, I would be more than happy to amend my conclusions if there are any errors.

(edited 9 years ago)

Places to Fire.png98.3KB

Targets.png338.9KB

M320.png83.6KB

Fajr.png76.9KB

Grad + WS-1E.png123.1KB

Qassam 1-3.png104.6KB

Reply 5384

UniOfLife

12

Original post by tsr1269

X

I cannot see the map you coloured in and without it and I cannot fully evaluate your valiant efforts to justify Hamas war crimes :smile:

Reply 5385

tsr1269

3

Original post by UniOfLife

I cannot see the map you coloured in and without it and I cannot fully evaluate your valiant efforts to justify Hamas war crimes :smile:

That is indeed a mystery as it is clearly appearing on my screen.

Maybe you need to replace your computer or use a different browser? Try Chrome or Aurora.

If it still doesn't work, I'll try PM'ing the images to you and if that still doesn't work, then I'll email the messages (you can use a dummy email account).

Let's see how this goes...

Reply 5386

momosteiny

Original post by broscience123

Israelis Protesting AGAINST ceasefire.

http://m.aljazeera.com/story/201481543016447317

Yes, you read that right, Israelis are protesting against the ceasefire. That shows you the typical bloodthirsty mentality of the average Zionist.

Presumably they would just like the army to destroy Hamas as they are scared a terrorist will pop up through their kitchen floor...

Reply 5387

UniOfLife

12

Original post by tsr1269

That is indeed a mystery as it is clearly appearing on my screen.

Maybe you need to replace your computer or use a different browser? Try Chrome or Aurora.

If it still doesn't work, I'll try PM'ing the images to you and if that still doesn't work, then I'll email the messages (you can use a dummy email account).

Let's see how this goes...

Tried in Chrome. Looks like you may have attached an image with a URL from your email inbox meaning that only you can see the images. Unless others in this thread can see them I think you probably did something wrong rather there being a problem on my end.

Either way, feel free to send them via PM or edit your original post to attach them and upload them.

Reply 5388

anarchism101

17

Original post by Meenglishnogood

equally the 'Native American' and 'Aborigine' where not 'native endemic to those lands either , they also travelled to the lands too - that has never been the point - we recognise that as being their homeland as we do jerusalem was the jews

There are no separate states for Native Americans or Aborigines, nor is there any significant call for them.

- their faith says that but more importantly, history says that too

How exactly does history say it?

yes they may have been other peoples orginally there, but many of those have been wiped out ( islamic conquest anyone?)

Not really getting what you're saying here; are you saying that the people who lived in Canaan (as it was then) before the Jews arrived were wiped out by the Muslim conquest?

And you forget israelis dont say they want to kick out all the muslims and christians from their homeland

No, not all the Muslims and Christians - only enough of them to guarantee a large Jewish demographic majority.

- they are happy to home them too. they jsut want a jewish state to live in in their homeland.

As noted above, the Native Americans and Aborigines do not have a separate state, yet still live in their homeland.

Furthermore, the idea of a Jewish state inherently restricts the right of non-Jews to live there, as it necessitates that Jews must be in the majority.

there have always been jews in palestine and levant as far as history tells us

The Jews first came to what is now Israel/Palestine in about 1300-1200 BCE. As noted above, there were people there before them. Therefore, history tells us that there have not always been Jews in Palestine.

- long before a state of palestine was created and indeed long beofre mohammed came up with islam.

There were Arabs in the Levant long before Islam existed too, what's your point?

the muslims could not wipe them all out, in the same way the europeans could not wipe out all the native americans.

The Muslims did not attempt to wipe them all out. Most of the Jews were forced out by the Romans before the Muslims even got there. Indeed, when the Muslims took over the region the Jewish communities began to grow and prosper for the first time in centuries (for example, the Muslims allowed - even encouraged - the Jews to live in Jerusalem again - something the Romans had banned for 500 years).

that being the case, muslims should also recognise Abraham was sent to jerusalem to claim it as the homeland of his people ( the jews) . you forget the only interest arabs had with jerusalem was when the first muslim caliphates army tried to conquer it -

But Muslims do not consider the Jews to be Abraham's people - they consider themselves to be Abraham's people. From their point of view, the Jews departed from the Covenant when they did not accept first Jesus and then Mohammed as prophets.

Also you're conflating Muslims and Arabs. Muslims have considered Jerusalem to be sacred for nearly as long as Islam has existed.

that arguemnt holds no water - the ottomans conquered the arabs, and then british conquered the muslims , before which there had never been any independant palestinian state in last 2500 years . you could argue then by your reasoning int he free-for-all since the israelis conquered the arabs and therefore they have the right as the ones in possestion

I wasn't making an argument for legitimacy of any particular state, I was responding to the previous poster saying that the Muslim conquest was the Muslims "taking other people's land", and implying that the 'other people" in question were the Jews - yet at the time of the conquest the Jews were neither the political controllers nor the demographic majority of the area.

Reply 5389

tsr1269

3

Original post by UniOfLife

Tried in Chrome. Looks like you may have attached an image with a URL from your email inbox meaning that only you can see the images. Unless others in this thread can see them I think you probably did something wrong rather there being a problem on my end.

Either way, feel free to send them via PM or edit your original post to attach them and upload them.

Okay. I broke the links and rerouted them through the images stored on my computer. It should all be working now. :smile:

Reply 5390

DK_Tipp

9

Original post by momosteiny

Presumably they would just like the army to destroy Hamas as they are scared a terrorist will pop up through their kitchen floor...

In the same way average Palestinians want a truce because Israeli rockets are actually coming through their kitchen rooves?

Reply 5391

DK_Tipp

9

Can somebody, preferably of Independent mind, clarify the Hamas position on the status of Israel?

I had been led to believe that their charter called for the destruction of Israel but from what I can gather the actual charter states that it is not up to Hamas but to the Palestinian people to either recognise or deny Israel. That is- a referendum of the Palestinian people would have to be held to determine the issue, presumably. How very democratic they are for a supposed bunch of terrorists... Anyway, anyone care to enlighten me?

Reply 5392

young_guns

1

Original post by DK_Tipp

Can somebody, preferably of Independent mind, clarify the Hamas position on the status of Israel?

Article Seven of the Hamas Charter approvingly quotes a religious text that predicts the murder of all Jews, everywhere. It says that "even the trees" they are hiding behind will call out to the faithful "Here are the Jews! Get them!"

I had been led to believe that their charter called for the destruction of Israel but from what I can gather the actual charter states that it is not up to Hamas but to the Palestinian people to either recognise or deny Israel.

That's not for the Palestinian people to decide. Israel exists. That is a "fact on the ground". The real question is "Will Palestine exist?". That question remains to be seen; if Hamas continues their ways, that looks increasingly unlikely in the short to medium term.

How very democratic they are for a supposed bunch of terrorists... Anyway, anyone care to enlighten me?

If they are so democratic, why haven't they held an election since 2006? Palestinian law requires an election every four years. It doesn't seem particularly democratic to me to simply abolish elections when they become inconvenient

Reply 5393

Jammy Duel

21

Original post by young_guns

That's not for the Palestinian people to decide. Israel exists. That is a "fact on the ground".

Whether it "exists" or not isn't really relevant to recognition. Armenia is recognised by the UN, but even so, Pakistan doesn't recognise it. Only 83% of UN members recognise Israel. As of 27/9/13 69.4% of UN members recognise the State of Palestine (basically just being Israel, North America and Western Europe that don't). And the current existence of Israel is only temporary, nations rise and fall.

Reply 5394

tsr1269

3

Original post by young_guns

Article Seven of the Hamas Charter approvingly quotes a religious text that predicts the murder of all Jews, everywhere. It says that "even the trees" they are hiding behind will call out to the faithful "Here are the Jews! Get them!"

Article 7 merely contains a prophecy that Jews will die. Whether it will be murder or during the course of a war remains to be seen.

That's not for the Palestinian people to decide. Israel exists. That is a "fact on the ground". The real question is "Will Palestine exist?". That question remains to be seen; if Hamas continues their ways, that looks increasingly unlikely in the short to medium term.

Even without HAMAS, a Palestinian state would not exist.

If they are so democratic, why haven't they held an election since 2006? Palestinian law requires an election every four years. It doesn't seem particularly democratic to me to simply abolish elections when they become inconvenient

Due to the attempted coup by Fatah, which had the approval or tacit understanding by the Israeli's/Americans, elections have been unable to be held. The security situation is also very fragile.

However, the 2014 unity agreement between HAMAS and Fatah allowed 6 months, from April 2014, to hold legislative elections.

Israel, in the fist instance, dismissed this as the "usual" in Palestinian politics but come June, where Israel suddenly realised that the Palestinians were serious, they invaded Gaza, putting to rest any hopes of the democratic process being observed in the near future.

It suits Israel to stop the Palestinians from ever holding elections ever again...

Reply 5395

young_guns

1

Original post by Jammy Duel

Whether it "exists" or not isn't really relevant to recognition

And ultimately, the recognition of the Palestinian people is irrelevant to whether Israel continues to exist. Its existence is a fact. The only link and relevance is the failure of the Palestinian people to recognise Israel's right to exist will mean their own failuire to attain a state. It really is as simple as that.

Armenia is recognised by the UN, but even so, Pakistan doesn't recognise it.

Who cares whether Pakistan recognises Armenia? Pakistan doesn't recognise Armenia, but they did recognise the Taliban government. Where are they now?

Only 83% of UN members recognise Israel.

Right. The vast majority of the world's nation-states recognise Israel. And again, a country's failure to recognise it is irrelevant to the fact that Israel exists. It's not going anywhere/

As of 27/9/13 69.4% of UN members recognise the State of Palestine

Isn't is interesting that so many of those countries that recognise Palestine as a state also recognise Israel? :smile:

And the current existence of Israel is only temporary, nations rise and fall.

This is what in the real world is called wishful thinking, or faith-based thinking. That might better read as, "I so badly want Israel not to exist, that I choose to believe that it won't exist in future". That's quite irrelevant, I'm afraid. In fact, more relevant than your own wishful thinking is the fact that the Palestinian Authority accepts Israel's existence and its right to exist.

Reply 5396

young_guns

1

Original post by tsr1269

Article 7 merely contains a prophecy that Jews will die. Whether it will be murder or during the course of a war remains to be seen. What an absolutely fascinating statement on your part.

Due to the attempted coup by Fatah, which had the approval or tacit understanding by the Israeli's/Americans, elections have been unable to be held.

Isn't that what dictators always say? Elections can't be held because of the security situation

However, the 2014 unity agreement between HAMAS and Fatah allowed 6 months, from April 2014, to hold legislative elections.

Better late than never. Let's see if they actually happen, and what happens in the aftermath. I really do hope the elections go ahead, the Palestinian people deserve no less and they have been kept waiting for far too long by their leaders.

where Israel suddenly realised that the Palestinians were serious, they invaded Gaza

Operation Protective Edge started in July. And I am quite sure that the start of that military campaign was preceded by a massive increase in Palestinian rockets coming from Gaza.

It suits Israel to stop the Palestinians from ever holding elections ever again...

And the Palestinians oblige them by.... not holding elections.

Reply 5397

tsr1269

3

Original post by young_guns

What an absolutely fascinating statement on your part.

It was a correction of your statements.

Isn't that what dictators always say? Elections can't be held because of the security situation

Oh, dictators do hold elections or didn't you realise that. I think one dictator got 99.7% of the vote. It was also rumoured that the numbers of votes cast was a few million more than the entire population of the country.

Funny things. elections are.

Better late than never. Let's see if they actually happen, and what happens in the aftermath. I really do hope the elections go ahead, the Palestinian people deserve no less and they have been kept waiting for far too long by their leaders.

The elections will not go ahead if Israel continues to interfere in Palestinian politics and tries their dirty tricks to break the unity government.

Operation Protective Edge started in July. And I am quite sure that the start of that military campaign was preceded by a massive increase in Palestinian rockets coming from Gaza.

You can't just go and invade Gaza. Israel won't have a leg to stand on.

What they do, is use a pretext, invite increased rocket fire and use that to justify their invasion and occupations.

Just one tiny hitch, it seems to have spectacularly backfired on them.

And the Palestinians oblige them by.... not holding elections.

The Palestinians have no choice. What choice do you have if your life is "micro-managed"?

Reply 5398

Jammy Duel

21

Original post by young_guns

And ultimately, the recognition of the Palestinian people is irrelevant to whether Israel continues to exist. Its existence is a fact. The only link and relevance is the failure of the Palestinian people to recognise Israel's right to exist will mean their own failuire to attain a state. It really is as simple as that.

And if Palestine recognises Israel suddenly they will be given member status of the UN? Given that Obama has openly said he will have the US veto any attempt Palestine makes to become a member of the UN when it goes to the security council, and given that the US seems rather hell bent on making sure that Palestine ceases to exist given that Israel is infallible and they don't seem to want Palestine to exist either, are you honestly blaming the Palestinian civilians?

Who cares whether Pakistan recognises Armenia? Pakistan doesn't recognise Armenia, but they did recognise the Taliban government. Where are they now?

Well, you seem to be giving the impression that if the UN recognises a country then all other countries, whether recognised by the UN or not, should also recognise their existence. After all, it's not the choice of the people of Palestine to chose whether they recognise Israel or not. Clearly, given the context, this means that they MUST recognise them because the UN does.

Right. The vast majority of the world's nation-states recognise Israel. And again, a country's failure to recognise it is irrelevant to the fact that Israel exists. It's not going anywhere/ Isn't is interesting that so many of those countries that recognise Palestine as a state also recognise Israel? :smile:

So, because the majority of the world recognise Israel, Israel "exists". However, this logic doesn't apply to Palestine?

This is what in the real world is called wishful thinking, or faith-based thinking. That might better read as, "I so badly want Israel not to exist, that I choose to believe that it won't exist in future". That's quite irrelevant, I'm afraid. In fact, more relevant than your own wishful thinking is the fact that the Palestinian Authority accepts Israel's existence and its right to exist.

So, explain to me how the existence of Israel now PROVES that it will exist forevermore. Does the USSR still exist? Yugoslavia? East Germany? West Germany? Grand Dutch of Finland? Holy Roman Empire? Gozo? Papal States? Kingdom of England? Tsardom of Russia? Cherokee Nation? Republic of Texas? Republic of Hawaii? Kingdom of Sarawak? Gold Coast? Jolof Empire? Zulu Kingdom? Sultanate of Sulu? Ottoman Empire? Or a much more substantial list (although still incomplete) of Former Sovereign States can be found here.
As I said, Israel may exist now, probably won't in 1000 years, I wouldn't be surprised if it's gone within a few centuries.
Wikipedia gives Turkey as the oldest country (based on last subordination), with the last subordination being in 1243. Morocco being the longest continually existing state (that is currently recognised by the UN), having initially formed in 789AD.

I'm more inclined to say that you wanting Israel to exist forevermore is wishful thinking, whereas my expecting Israel to cease existing in a few centuries is the product of rational thought.

p.s. I thought the person asking the question wanted a relatively impartial opinion?

Reply 5399

UniOfLife

12

Original post by tsr1269

Okay. I broke the links and rerouted them through the images stored on my computer. It should all be working now. :smile:

Yes they are visible now.

I'm afraid I think you wasted your efforts though because you have not addressed the original point. If you remember, the original question was:

"Why are there rocket sites in the middle of cities"

to which you replied:

"Where else shall they put them?"

So the question is whether or not there are places other than cities and heavily populated areas to store and fire their rockets. The question was not whether or not those other places allow the most effective use of those weapons but whether or not they are available.

I proved that at least 28% of the Gaza Strip and probably much closer to 75% is not heavily populated - not even built up - and can be used to store and fire rockets. Your response does not address this point at all.

I conclude therefore that we are both in agreement that there is, in fact, plenty of physical space where Hamas could store and fire their rockets, away from heavily populated areas.

If we wish to address the question of why Hamas and other terrorist organisations choose not to use those areas but prefer using cities and other heavily populated areas then this is a trivial question to answer. Simply put - if rockets were stored and fired from open space away from civilians then Israel would have no problem or hesitation destroying them very quickly, rendering the terrorist groups unable to fire their rockets. They thus prefer to use heavily populated areas because they know that the presence of so many civilians hampers Israel's efforts to destroy rocket stockpiles and launch sites. In other words, they use the civilian population to shield and protect their rockets and launch sites.

The Israel/Palestine Conflict Mk. IV

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