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Students to declare their parents' degrees 2008 onwards

It's on the front page of the Sunday Telegraph that UCAS want applicants to state whether their parents have degrees, as well as putting down occupation (which we already do but the universities can't see that) and household income. The motive is so universities will be able to see the 'less advantaged' backgrounds and theoretically offer places to such candidates over more traditional university-bound types.

What do we all think of this? There's already debate over whether universities lean more towards state school students (I think there is some truth in this), but with even more, quite personal, information on top of this, the furore will surely increase. I personally agree with widening access to less advantaged but highly able pupils, but on the other hand, it might only cause rifts and class tension once they actually reach university...

I don't know why this information is necessary at all. Universities should see our grades, our statement, our reference, and not a lot else (our address etc obviously to send us info). It's bad enough we may be getting judged on the school we went to, but to factor in our parents' education is potentially a step too far.

So opinions, thoughts, anything, join the fray. :smile:

EDIT: another point is, people could play this system to their advantage. For example, although my parents are a qualified architect and librarian, they studied so long ago that they don't actually have degrees as such, but 'vocational qualifications' or something similar. So regardless of how well respected their job and strong their belief in sending their children to university, the form would ultimately still say they don't have degrees. Madness.

Reply 1

Juncture

16

I don't think there's honestly much point in asking us that, it doesn't show what route our parents took into university, both my parents have degrees but they both got them from the OU which is very different to having got them from a normal university at the normal age, not taking into account that would stop them from achieving the aim they set out to do by asking

I don't really see the point in them knowing apart from as backup for someone who's applying for special grades consideration due to their socioeconomic background and the school they've gone to as it might help with their decision making then

Reply 2

LukeatForest

13

I don't think it's unreasonable to ask, but it shouldn't be a basis on whether or not you're accepted.

Reply 3

Turdburger

16

I personally wouldnt put that information down. Its just a devise to encourage
"positive" discrimination, i.e. negative discrimination for those who arent positivally discrimanted.

If it isnt being used to discriminate between candidates why is it there?

(Having said that neither of my parents have honours degrees, my dad has a pass degree, my mum has an HND, so i would be middle ground i guess.)

Reply 4

kellywood_5

17

I personally think it's a good idea. People complain that simply knowing whether an applicant went to a state or a private school doesn't give that much insight into their background, which is true; knowing their household income and their parents' education history as well would give a much more accurate picture. On one hand, it would allow students from disadvantaged backgrounds to have that taken into account, but at the same time, it would prevent grammar school students from well-off and well-educated families getting any advantage over private school students with similar backgrounds, and it would also prevent private school students with unusual financial/educational backgrounds being discriminated against. If you're going to take socioeconomic factors into consideration, which I think all unis should, you have to do it properly and get enough information to make it worthwhile. To be honest though, no one is ever going to agree on this issue because everyone is from a different background. If, like me, you went to a bog standard comprehensive and come from a fairly low income family where you're the first to go to uni, you're likely to agree with schemes such as this. If, on the other hand, you go to a high achieving private school and come from a rich family where everyone goes to Oxbridge, you're likely to be less enthusiastic about it.

Reply 5

tbtommyb

11

I don't see why they should know. Universities should just pick the best applicants they have, whether or not their parents went to university.

Edit: In response to kelly, I'm more or less in the same position as you, and I don't agree with it (though I go to a grammar, since NI has the 11+). What this means is that more able students might lose a place to a poorer student, just because of their background. Or if there is a decision to be made between two equal candidates, the one with the worse background would probably get in. You can't control or change your background so it should be irrelevant.

Takes the P

I think it is just another desperate attempt by the government to try and make everyone get a degree, whether they want to or not... Acceptances should be done 'blind' to truly be fair; not on results completely, but on raw intelligence. I know it's impossible to eliminate bias totally, but I can dream... By trying to make things non-discriminatory, all it does is create positive discrimination which is just as bad.

Ok, I then might have a slightly better chance of getting in (neither of my parents did well in O levels, and stopped there) but tbh, I think that it's a pointless measure, by an increasingly 'nanny-state' government.

Just my thoughts.

Reply 8

Slender Loris

3

When I was in school, I was told that you would be at an advantage if you were the first in your family to go to university, so I was quite suprised to see that it didn't come in to play at all, only for certain access schemes, bursaries etc. I don't think it's necessary at all; I think it's bad enough that it asks for occupation even if that's only for statistics purposes.

Reply 9

Couldxbe

16

I would benefit from it due to the fact I have a low income and neither of my parents have a degree, as well as the fact I'm the first from my family planning to go to University. But I don't agree with it. I don't want to be pitied. I will compete against the public schools based on academics, not on the fact I'm 'disadvantaged.'

Isn't it better if there's Access Schemes, i.e. like Cambridge?

Reply 10

Truman

3

Its just further attempt at social engineering by this Labour govt. I think its ridiculous, candidates should be judged solely on their own ability, proven or potential.

Reply 11

Sephrenia

16

I think its pretty damn ridiculous...Just like fees when they are trying to get everyone to get a degree..what about the people who are slightly poorer? how are they supposed to go when they can't afford it :rolleyes:

********.

burntgorilla

Edit: In response to kelly, I'm more or less in the same position as you, and I don't agree with it (though I go to a grammar, since NI has the 11+). What this means is that more able students might lose a place to a poorer student, just because of their background. Or if there is a decision to be made between two equal candidates, the one with the worse background would probably get in. You can't control or change your background so it should be irrelevant.

I don't think the first situation would actually happen. A uni would be rather silly to let a mediocre applicant in just because they were poor, no one in their family went to uni and they went to a bad school over a much better applicant who happened to be more well off with parents who went to uni and a better school. Wow, that was a long sentence.....I agree the second situation, ie 2 applicants equal except for background, probably does happen and that one's a toughie. I don't think the student with the more disadvantaged background should get in just because of that, but if they really are truly equal in terms of everything else, how should the uni decide?

Reply 14

kellywood_5

17

Couldxbe

Isn't it better if there's Access Schemes, i.e. like Cambridge?

That would be a good idea. As far as I know, access schemes don't positively discriminate against students from worse backgrounds, they just give them more leeway when it comes to grades. Just to clarify my position on this, I don't agree with one student getting a place over another because of their background, but I do agree with realising and accepting that it's harder for some people to get top grades than it is for others.

Reply 15

bisous

OP

The thing with Access schemes is that participants get their entry requirements lowered (loads of people at my sixth form got into Birmingham University through this), which, although means it's great for them in terms of their likelihood of making it to a top uni, also means they will be on a course with people who applied 'normally'; so for example, a friend of mine had a BCC offer or something equally relatively low to do Biology at Bham, whilst others on her course had to achieve AAB (I think), so it could be said they are more able/prepared/have had to work harder to get in than she did (she got BCC exactly), and consequently, she's struggling a little.

Isn't income and occupation subjective though? What would be considered a 'high' income? If it's anything like EMA it'll be a joke (someone in my year had a household income of just over £30,000, with six other siblings being supported...!). And just because someone has a typically white collar job, doesn't mean they're making mega bucks.

Reply 16

username90404

6

I personally dont agree with it altho I would probably benefit most from it, neither of my parents have a great education, saying that I havent spoken to my dad since I was 9.

I am classed as financially poor and come from a area where this type of living is normal, saying that if I'm in a classroom with well educated and posh students, guaranteed I can communicate, code and pull off some intense arithmetic with the best of them.

What my background is like or whether my parents are employed or have degrees frankly is none of the universities business, its about me, judge me for me and not about my parents.

From my own view, granted my background is not great, the area I live in is not great but I worked harded at a local college for (4 additional years) to grab myself the opportinity of going to university to better myself, the last thing I want to see is the governments attempt to drag the 'generation of under achievers and laziness' into university when they havent worked for this place. Its about the individual and nothing else.

I can understand the governments attempt to get more young people into university achieveing degrees but frankly unless they have earned their place, it shouldnt be given to them on a plate.

Reply 17

kellywood_5

17

hanby

The thing with Access schemes is that participants get their entry requirements lowered (loads of people at my sixth form got into Birmingham University through this), which, although means it's great for them in terms of their likelihood of making it to a top uni, also means they will be on a course with people who applied 'normally'; so for example, a friend of mine had a BCC offer or something equally relatively low to do Biology at Bham, whilst others on her course had to achieve AAB (I think), so it could be said they are more able/prepared/have had to work harder to get in than she did (she got BCC exactly), and consequently, she's struggling a little.

Yeah, I see what you mean, although I didn't know most access schemes lowered the grades by that much. The Cambridge one only lowers it from AAA to AAB, but obviously they couldn't really go any lower than that apart from a matriculation offer because it's Cambridge. I think the reasoning behind it is that its just as hard for someone from a crap school to get BCC as it is for someone from a top school to get AAB even if they're of similar ability; the problem is that it's impossible to prove, so there's no way of knowing whether someone let in with BCC would struggle. I think the way Cambridge look at GCSEs in their access scheme is good though. They give 1 point for each A* and 0.6 for each A, but you can have points added on if you go to a bad school. It's just a way of levelling the playing field slightly. As I've said before, I don't think one student should get in over another just because of background, but I do think students from worse schools should be given more leeway when it comes to GCSE grades and the grades needed to meet their offers. That's why blanket '6 A*s or you're not getting an offer' policy for competitive courses (Durham are rumoured to have one for history) is ridiculous. Imagine student A went to a top public school and got 6 A*s but came bottom of their year. Student B went to a bog standard comprehensive and got 4 A*s but came top of their year. Which achievement would you think was more impressive? Policies like that do nothing to change the proportion of private and grammar students at top unis.

Reply 18

crankycaz

2

I don't see why my parents' education even comes into the equation of my educational history.

Neither of my parents have degrees, my mum is a civil servant and my dad's a steel engineer. I go to a private school, where ok, some of the pupil' parents have far too much money to spend on cars and holidays, but the only reason I'm at the school is because my dad works his butt off on horrible shifts to keep me there, and because I got an academic scholorship. Now, I would say that my achievements have been down to my hard work, they aren't anything to do with my social background or the fact that I'm at a private school, because tbh it isn't even that good - the local comp gets just as good grades. So I don't see that the information is necessary or relevant.

Reply 19

Greenmile

9

I would imagine that it would just be used for monitoring candidates that attend university, rather than influencing a university's decision to offer that candidate a place.
On the student finance form there is an optional section which asks if either of your parents have a degree. It's very much along the same lines as why companies ask you to fill in a form about ethnicity etc when you apply for a job. It's all that equal opportunities stuff and will probably be used just to publish a load of tables about what people from what background went to which uni etc. I really can't see it being a factor in university decisions otherwise it would be discrimination.

Students to declare their parents' degrees 2008 onwards

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