What would be required for a UK student to get onto the Harvard LLM course?
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Original post by Summit
FINE! I WAS BEING LAZY! 
Here is the Harvard list. Sadly I couldn't find the Yale one.
http://hls.harvard.edu/dept/jdadmissions/apply-to-harvard-law-school/undergraduate-colleges/
Here is the Harvard list. Sadly I couldn't find the Yale one.
http://hls.harvard.edu/dept/jdadmissions/apply-to-harvard-law-school/undergraduate-colleges/
Thanks, so if I'm reading this right, these universities are the ones the current Harvard LLM students went to before Harvard?
Edit - this is the list for the J.D program, is there a list for LLM?
(edited 8 years ago)
Original post by theperformer
Thanks, so if I'm reading this right, these universities are the ones the current Harvard LLM students went to before Harvard?
Edit - this is the list for the J.D program, is there a list for LLM?
Edit - this is the list for the J.D program, is there a list for LLM?
Oops, sorry for that. I am afraid I could only find info about the J.D.
I completed an LLM at another top-ranked U.S. law school (not Harvard but ranked in the top 20). From my experience U.S. law school pay a lot of attention to personal statements, references and grades (in no particular order). Another important element is diversity. Top schools always try to have diversity -- so your background and where are you from matters. In my class we had students from Japan, Germany, China (widely represented I would say) few from Europe and many from South America.
Oxbridge is not a must: see the story of an Open University student currently completing her LLM at Harvard
http://www3.open.ac.uk/media/fullstory.aspx?id=29223
Harvard is very competitive but if you have solid grades, a talent for writing interesting and engaging personal statements and some good references is certainly worth a try. The odds increase drastically if you stay in the top 10-25 law schools. In many cases the LLM market is declining so many schools will be interested in good students from the U.K.
After the LLM you will normally be eligible to sit for the New York Bar Exam and the California Bar Exam. Other states that have very recently opened the bar exam to foreign graduates are Wisconsin (which has a much higher pass rate than NY or CA) and Georgia.
There is no training contract/pupillage requirement in the U.S. so if you pass the bar exam, you will be ready to practice as a U.S. lawyer. You can also transfer as a Solicitor (without TC requirements) by passing the QLTS test.
Oxbridge is not a must: see the story of an Open University student currently completing her LLM at Harvard
http://www3.open.ac.uk/media/fullstory.aspx?id=29223
Harvard is very competitive but if you have solid grades, a talent for writing interesting and engaging personal statements and some good references is certainly worth a try. The odds increase drastically if you stay in the top 10-25 law schools. In many cases the LLM market is declining so many schools will be interested in good students from the U.K.
After the LLM you will normally be eligible to sit for the New York Bar Exam and the California Bar Exam. Other states that have very recently opened the bar exam to foreign graduates are Wisconsin (which has a much higher pass rate than NY or CA) and Georgia.
There is no training contract/pupillage requirement in the U.S. so if you pass the bar exam, you will be ready to practice as a U.S. lawyer. You can also transfer as a Solicitor (without TC requirements) by passing the QLTS test.
Original post by theperformer
Where did you get that idea? A First in LLB is a first.
Absolute nonsense.
Original post by callum_law
Absolute nonsense.
Explain
Posted from TSR Mobile
Original post by christianlaw
I completed an LLM at another top-ranked U.S. law school (not Harvard but ranked in the top 20). From my experience U.S. law school pay a lot of attention to personal statements, references and grades (in no particular order). Another important element is diversity. Top schools always try to have diversity -- so your background and where are you from matters. In my class we had students from Japan, Germany, China (widely represented I would say) few from Europe and many from South America.
Oxbridge is not a must: see the story of an Open University student currently completing her LLM at Harvard
http://www3.open.ac.uk/media/fullstory.aspx?id=29223
Harvard is very competitive but if you have solid grades, a talent for writing interesting and engaging personal statements and some good references is certainly worth a try. The odds increase drastically if you stay in the top 10-25 law schools. In many cases the LLM market is declining so many schools will be interested in good students from the U.K.
After the LLM you will normally be eligible to sit for the New York Bar Exam and the California Bar Exam. Other states that have very recently opened the bar exam to foreign graduates are Wisconsin (which has a much higher pass rate than NY or CA) and Georgia.
There is no training contract/pupillage requirement in the U.S. so if you pass the bar exam, you will be ready to practice as a U.S. lawyer. You can also transfer as a Solicitor (without TC requirements) by passing the QLTS test.
Oxbridge is not a must: see the story of an Open University student currently completing her LLM at Harvard
http://www3.open.ac.uk/media/fullstory.aspx?id=29223
Harvard is very competitive but if you have solid grades, a talent for writing interesting and engaging personal statements and some good references is certainly worth a try. The odds increase drastically if you stay in the top 10-25 law schools. In many cases the LLM market is declining so many schools will be interested in good students from the U.K.
After the LLM you will normally be eligible to sit for the New York Bar Exam and the California Bar Exam. Other states that have very recently opened the bar exam to foreign graduates are Wisconsin (which has a much higher pass rate than NY or CA) and Georgia.
There is no training contract/pupillage requirement in the U.S. so if you pass the bar exam, you will be ready to practice as a U.S. lawyer. You can also transfer as a Solicitor (without TC requirements) by passing the QLTS test.
Thanks for the answer. A few questions:
- Since you did your LLM in America, do you find that you can work in the UK? Does being at a top American law school help in the UK?
- Did you have to do American based tests to get on to the LLM course you're doing?
- Why is the LLM market declining?
- What grades did you get at undergrad and did anything from your personal statement stand out?
- Which uni did you go for undergrad?
Thank you for giving me insight into this. I appreciate it.
Posted from TSR Mobile
- Since you did your LLM in America, do you find that you can work in the UK? Does being at a top American law school help in the UK?
In a very competitive market like the UK one having a LLM from a top ranked U.S. law school was very useful to me but bear in mind that I had already had over 10 years of work experience so employment was not my main concern. If you find a way to finance (e.g. scholarship) a U.S. LLM it will be a fantastic experience.
This said studying in the U.S. is much more expensive than in the UK. It seems that here even a GDL or an LLB here is considered to be very expensive. In the U.S. 1 year in law school is between 40 and 50K (US$) in tuition alone so costs are much higher.
In my LLM class several international students received some form of financial aid but they probably still paid something like 30K + living expenses etc.
- Did you have to do American based tests to get on to the LLM course you're doing?
No, you don't need an LSAT for an LLM or any other standardised test.
- Why is the LLM market declining?
In the U.S. a law degree is graduate degree (J.D. Juris Doctor) that is considered a terminal degree. Very few U.S. attorneys have an LL.M. The decline is probably in terms of European applicants: few years back a lot of lawyers from countries like Germany and France were taking an LLM in the U.S.
Even today there is still a tradition in some European countries to have not only an LLB but an LLM and -- in many cases a PhD.
But with so many excellent LL.M programmes in Europe a lot of firms are only sponsoring local options.
This decline is compensated by Chinese and Asian students that are very keen to study in the U.S.
Some U.S. law schools have now created graduate JD programmes (2 years) that are seen as more attractive because, after a JD, you can sit the bar exam in any State.
- What grades did you get at undergrad and did anything from your personal statement stand out?
My first law degree is not from the UK but I can tell you that it was nothing stellar -- equivalent to a 2:1. The personal statement was important and so were the references. In the personal statement you need to have a good story and someone that sets you apart from other applicants. With the exception of Harvard, Yale and the top 5 the competition in the remaining 15 of the top-20 is not as high.
- Which uni did you go for undergrad?
My first law degree is not from the UK but to give you some local dimension I also have an LL.B from the University of Stirling so not that highly ranked.
In a very competitive market like the UK one having a LLM from a top ranked U.S. law school was very useful to me but bear in mind that I had already had over 10 years of work experience so employment was not my main concern. If you find a way to finance (e.g. scholarship) a U.S. LLM it will be a fantastic experience.
This said studying in the U.S. is much more expensive than in the UK. It seems that here even a GDL or an LLB here is considered to be very expensive. In the U.S. 1 year in law school is between 40 and 50K (US$) in tuition alone so costs are much higher.
In my LLM class several international students received some form of financial aid but they probably still paid something like 30K + living expenses etc.
- Did you have to do American based tests to get on to the LLM course you're doing?
No, you don't need an LSAT for an LLM or any other standardised test.
- Why is the LLM market declining?
In the U.S. a law degree is graduate degree (J.D. Juris Doctor) that is considered a terminal degree. Very few U.S. attorneys have an LL.M. The decline is probably in terms of European applicants: few years back a lot of lawyers from countries like Germany and France were taking an LLM in the U.S.
Even today there is still a tradition in some European countries to have not only an LLB but an LLM and -- in many cases a PhD.
But with so many excellent LL.M programmes in Europe a lot of firms are only sponsoring local options.
This decline is compensated by Chinese and Asian students that are very keen to study in the U.S.
Some U.S. law schools have now created graduate JD programmes (2 years) that are seen as more attractive because, after a JD, you can sit the bar exam in any State.
- What grades did you get at undergrad and did anything from your personal statement stand out?
My first law degree is not from the UK but I can tell you that it was nothing stellar -- equivalent to a 2:1. The personal statement was important and so were the references. In the personal statement you need to have a good story and someone that sets you apart from other applicants. With the exception of Harvard, Yale and the top 5 the competition in the remaining 15 of the top-20 is not as high.
- Which uni did you go for undergrad?
My first law degree is not from the UK but to give you some local dimension I also have an LL.B from the University of Stirling so not that highly ranked.
Original post by theperformer
A 70% from Lincoln is not the same as a 70% from Oxford, or KCL, or Bristol.
Original post by callum_law
A 70% from Lincoln is not the same as a 70% from Oxford, or KCL, or Bristol.
In experience U.S. law schools will look at the marks and wouldn't necessary think that a lower classification from Bristol would be superior to a first from Lincoln.
Even in other European countries (e.g. Germany, Austria) the LLM requirements are always about a certain classification/performance and not from X or Y law school.
Without doubts Oxford and Cambridge are an exception and will probably have more of a "wow" factor but you can join a top U.S. LLM with good marks from pretty much any British University.
Original post by christianlaw
In experience U.S. law schools will look at the marks and wouldn't necessary think that a lower classification from Bristol would be superior to a first from Lincoln.
Even in other European countries (e.g. Germany, Austria) the LLM requirements are always about a certain classification/performance and not from X or Y law school.
Without doubts Oxford and Cambridge are an exception and will probably have more of a "wow" factor but you can join a top U.S. LLM with good marks from pretty much any British University.
Even in other European countries (e.g. Germany, Austria) the LLM requirements are always about a certain classification/performance and not from X or Y law school.
Without doubts Oxford and Cambridge are an exception and will probably have more of a "wow" factor but you can join a top U.S. LLM with good marks from pretty much any British University.
You missed part of the conversation I was having. Poster 1 said a first from some universities is "more difficult" than others. Poster 2 said this was untrue and "a First in LLB is a first". I then responded to poster 2 by saying that poster 1's proposition is true. I was only talking about difficulty and not LLM uptake at the top US law schools, which I am not familiar with as I know no one who has done LLM in the US.
I do wonder whether the person from the OU had a 70% and not an 86% or 90%. She had amazing work experience, that is for sure. Definitely an exceptional candidate.
(edited 8 years ago)
Original post by callum_law
You missed part of the conversation I was having. Poster 1 said a first from some universities is "more difficult" than others. Poster 2 said this was untrue and "a First in LLB is a first". I then responded to poster 2 by saying that poster 1's proposition is true. I was only talking about difficulty and not LLM uptake at the top US law schools, which I am not familiar with as I know no one who has done LLM in the US.
I do wonder whether the person from the OU had a 70% and not an 86% or 90%. She had amazing work experience, that is for sure. Definitely an exceptional candidate.
I do wonder whether the person from the OU had a 70% and not an 86% or 90%. She had amazing work experience, that is for sure. Definitely an exceptional candidate.
Sorry, my bad!
The OU person had more than 70% because in the OU a 70% is not a first. I think that you need 85%+ to have a OU first.
Very few fresh graduates will go for an LL.M in the U.S. unless in full scholarships but there are also a few cases of financially fortunate people that can afford it. In these cases it can really be a great experience.
Original post by Summit
FINE! I WAS BEING LAZY!
Here is the Harvard list. Sadly I couldn't find the Yale one.
http://hls.harvard.edu/dept/jdadmissions/apply-to-harvard-law-school/undergraduate-colleges/
Here is the Harvard list. Sadly I couldn't find the Yale one.
http://hls.harvard.edu/dept/jdadmissions/apply-to-harvard-law-school/undergraduate-colleges/
Nobody from Cambridge or Durham? Wow.
Original post by christianlaw
Sorry, my bad!
The OU person had more than 70% because in the OU a 70% is not a first. I think that you need 85%+ to have a OU first.
Very few fresh graduates will go for an LL.M in the U.S. unless in full scholarships but there are also a few cases of financially fortunate people that can afford it. In these cases it can really be a great experience.
The OU person had more than 70% because in the OU a 70% is not a first. I think that you need 85%+ to have a OU first.
Very few fresh graduates will go for an LL.M in the U.S. unless in full scholarships but there are also a few cases of financially fortunate people that can afford it. In these cases it can really be a great experience.
The only times I have come across LLM at Yale/Harvard, so forth, is when looking at the top commercial chambers. Generally, recently qualified barristers in such sets dabble in US law. I am inclined to believe that not many of those people were from a socio-economic background which required them to acquire a full scholarship.
What was your experience? Are you a British LLB student who acquired a scholarship?
(edited 8 years ago)
Original post by Jasaron
Nobody from Cambridge or Durham? Wow.
That's JD, though. Not LLM.
Original post by Jasaron
Nobody from Cambridge or Durham? Wow.
Cambridge missing is so surprising! Oxford, Edinburgh and UoL only.
Original post by Summit
Cambridge missing is so surprising! Oxford, Edinburgh and UoL only.
York Uni is at the bottom of the list.
Original post by callum_law
York Uni is at the bottom of the list.
I am pretty sure that is York University in Canada http://futurestudents.yorku.ca/
If it was the one in the UK it would have been "University of York".
Original post by callum_law
That's JD, though. Not LLM.
Missed that.
Original post by Summit
I am pretty sure that is York University in Canada http://futurestudents.yorku.ca/
If it was the one in the UK it would have been "University of York".
If it was the one in the UK it would have been "University of York".
Good point. That said, some of the US colleges are quite random. Not exactly world-leaders. That suggests that the limited number of UK unis, such as Cambridge not being listed, is down to small sample size rather than academic exclusivity.
Original post by callum_law
Good point. That said, some of the US colleges are quite random. Not exactly world-leaders. That suggests that the limited number of UK unis, such as Cambridge not being listed, is down to small sample size rather than academic exclusivity.
Completely agree. Many British students remain in the UK for their JD/LLM, and therefore we cannot really compare the number of schools represented to those colleges in the US.
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