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How competitive is the bar?

dianebbl

Not an option unfortunately - the BVC is only for the admittants to the Bar of England & Wales and so is not valid for anywhere outside this. Even Scottish/NI law and Bar have completely different systems and required qualifications.

The BVC is valid in Australia (or at least it is easier to work there than most other places) and some people go out there.

And forget the USA without the NY or California Bar exam (an extra £4k).

Actually in the US you need to take the bar exam of whichever state you wish to practice in; the NY or California bar exams will not qualify you throughout the country.

Reply 21

OldHand

2

shady lane

Actually in the US you need to take the bar exam of whichever state you wish to practice in; the NY or California bar exams will not qualify you throughout the country.

No, I know that; but having briefly looked into it my understanding was that those were the only two initially open to people wanting to covert from the England & Wales Bar. Then if a person wanted to move states they had to take that state's exam also, but the California/NY bars were a prerequisite before you could apply to another state bar.

Reply 22

Ishtar

9

A related question - I'm planning to sit the New York bar exam next year, studying at the same time as my LPC. Does anyone have any experience of this?

Reply 23

Nana_Julia

9

waji

im not hard working enough for a first, i can do it but i know i wont since i get a serious burnout if i work too much and then it just becomes stressing at which point you start hating your course.

I'm sure if you explain that to chambers they'll be fine with it :rolleyes:

Reply 24

Lewisy-boy

11

Freckles you must be mad... friends of mine on exchange at NUS are currently studying their bar exams for New York, California and some for Canada. The amount of material they have to learn is enormous... although it's open book so they've been advised that preparing a good index will see them through by friends and colleagues at the firms they're joining.

It's a lot, but if you work hard you should be fine. Bear in mind, however, that they are having to learn extra stuff on top of their JD and remember a lot of stuff from their law degrees. It's fairly mental.

Reply 25

Ishtar

9

Lewisy-boy

Freckles you must be mad... friends of mine on exchange at NUS are currently studying their bar exams for New York, California and some for Canada. The amount of material they have to learn is enormous... although it's open book so they've been advised that preparing a good index will see them through by friends and colleagues at the firms they're joining.

It's a lot, but if you work hard you should be fine. Bear in mind, however, that they are having to learn extra stuff on top of their JD and remember a lot of stuff from their law degrees. It's fairly mental.

I've looked at past papers, and its certainly no walk in the park, but I like a challenge! I think its worth a go, and the LPC year would seem to be the ideal time to do it.

Reply 26

Lewisy-boy

11

Hmmm except LPC is supposed to be an extremely work intensive year. Easy, but intensive.

Reply 27

Ishtar

9

I've heard varying reports - although I think I would have time if I'm prepared to work hard. What else are weekends for? :wink:

Reply 28

Lewisy-boy

11

PARTY! Or geeking it up, whatever floats yo boat playa.

Reply 29

Ishtar

9

Lewisy-boy

PARTY! Or geeking it up, whatever floats yo boat playa.

LOL! I'll be a sad old alcoholic with no friends in no time!

Reply 30

Nana_Julia

9

dianebbl

Probably?! - If you don't know (and have absolutely no experience of applying), don't reply with an unsubstantiated guess!

It is actually much harder outside London as they get more applicants, and offer less pupillages!! For example I applied to a Manchester Chambers which had over 900 applicants for 2 pupillages - first round they had 30 people at an assessment day, second round interview was for 8.

Compare with London (equally as prestigious sets of chambers) - 500 people, 80 interviewed first round, 25 second - 4 pupillages on offer!

Therefore it is clearly much harder to get an interview, and therefore a pupillage, outside London - Know your facts!

I'm sorry but you seem to offer advice on every topic on this board without necessarily having any experience - you've not even finished your degree and seemingly (apologies if I'm incorrect) want to be a solicitor so why advise people on the Bar when you've not done/or applied for the BVC?! Leave it to those of us, such as Julia Whittaker and myself, who know what we're talking about to advise people - I wouldn't dream of advising people on where to do the LPC as I haven't got a clue!

Ok I know this was some time ago but I remembered something over the week which seems to suggest that it's quality and not quantity of applicants that indicates how difficult it is to get into a chambers - I applied for a relatively poor chambers (well, only 1 QC and not in the Legal 500) as a "back-up" of sorts and was surprised to get a letter, sent to everyone who applied, stating that they had received over 500 applications. I know for a fact that a much much better chambers, with lots of QCS and a reputation second to none got some 200 applications. But I don't doubt that it is much harder to get into the second (I got an offer from the first but not from the second despite churning out an opinion while on mini-pupillage on a complex case which matched the opinion of counsel in every respect - in addition I know a guy who got 6 offers from the top top commercial sets who was turned down at the first round for this chambers). On another mini-pupillage elsewhere one of the pupillage committee was saying that there are some chambers which because of their nature/areas of work/location/a myth that they are easier to get into get far more applications than much better chambers, but do not get far more GOOD applications.

Reply 31

bryan

10

Vera5018

What about when somebody studies international law at undergraduate studies, than makes master in international law and tries to get into BVC in USA? In such case is also the conversion needed?

there are no BVC and conversion in the US. As mentioned above, only NY and California allow international law graduates to take the bar exam. But I heard without a US JD (law degree), you will be siginificantly disadvantaged and very few firms will be willing to take you on.

Reply 32

Simon Myerson QC

5

The bar is very competitive. That is because an enormous number of people want to do it and there are relatively few places. It is also because the profession has historically taken the view that training prior to pupillage is not much to do with us. Accordingly, there are large numbers of people graduating from the BVC each year and not many pupillages.

There are 2 basic approaches to pupillage. Some of the London sets are pupillage factories. They will take on a number of pupils (I think 8 is the maximum I have come across - 4 is more common) and the pupils will fight it out amongst themselves for the 1 tenancy (a permanent place in Chambers) which may be available. The alternative approach is to take on 1 pupil (sometimes 2) with a view to a tenancy. My own Chambers adopts the second method and I prefer it myself.

Chambers are getting better at looking for the right things. There is a good deal of truth to the assertion that it all used to be about who you knew and where you went to school/university. There is much less truth about that now. But barristers are not good at being told how to conduct their business and it has taken a long time for good interviewing practices to percolate down - and I am talking about basic things like asking every applicant the same question.

The issue of differential has only recently begun to take root. So there is still a preference for Oxbridge out there and sets are only slowly getting to grips with the fact that sink school to Redbrick is probably a longer journey than Eton to Oxford.

However, my own belief is that the process will accelerate. As junior tenants come onto pupillage committees (and most have one pretty junior person), they bring with them a comparative lack of prejudice against the old polytechnics and an understanding of why people make the choices they do.

I hope this helps. For more information please go here http://pupillageandhowtogetit.blogspot.com/ and feel free to leave a comment. Good luck y'all.

How competitive is the bar?

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