Fact-finding mission: some economics regarding the EU and why Brexit.
This isn't intended to make economic arguments to leave the EU; I just want to have a fact-finding mission, I want to develop and or change my arguments. So let's keep this civil.
1a) The EU ETS increases the cost of producing energy. To compensate energy providers increase energy prices.
1b) Energy providers can relocate, reducing competition. Energy prices can further increase. If this happens the desired result of reducing carbon emmission isn’t achieved (to the same extent) because the businesses have relocated to countries where green taxes are not implemented.
2a) Relatively high energy prices due to 1a) and 1b).
2b) The EU ETC increase the cost of producing steel, similar to 1a).
2c) Countries namely China dumping steel (selling steel below cost of production), damaging UK competition. The EU has a tariff of 9% on this dumped Chinese steel, as opposed to the USA, who has a tariff of ~250%.
2d) Redundancy usw. usf. Permanent damage to the UK steel industry.
3a) EU membership costs the UK £55 million/day, but when considering the EU rebate, the EU membership fees cost the UK £35 million/day.
3b) The EU spends a portion of its budget on the UK, further compensating the fees (but not fully.) The UK doesn’t get to decide what this money is spent on. (Sth said ~£23 million/day when considering both rebate and EU budget spent on us, I think.)
3c) Adding onto 3b) the things commissioned by the EU come with an EU label; propaganda, despite the excess of money the UK pays into the EU.
4a) The CAP puts a tariff on many non-EU agricultural goods to protect EU trade. This reduces competition, so food prices can and have gone higher. This increases living costs. This also has the effect of hurting agricultural business in many LEDCs, stalling its development.
What are the effect on farmers if the CAP tariff was reduced in tandem with how do the subsidies to UK farmers work? I acknowledge there’s more to CAP, but I lack the time to fully understand it.
1a) The EU ETS increases the cost of producing energy. To compensate energy providers increase energy prices.
1b) Energy providers can relocate, reducing competition. Energy prices can further increase. If this happens the desired result of reducing carbon emmission isn’t achieved (to the same extent) because the businesses have relocated to countries where green taxes are not implemented.
2a) Relatively high energy prices due to 1a) and 1b).
2b) The EU ETC increase the cost of producing steel, similar to 1a).
2c) Countries namely China dumping steel (selling steel below cost of production), damaging UK competition. The EU has a tariff of 9% on this dumped Chinese steel, as opposed to the USA, who has a tariff of ~250%.
2d) Redundancy usw. usf. Permanent damage to the UK steel industry.
3a) EU membership costs the UK £55 million/day, but when considering the EU rebate, the EU membership fees cost the UK £35 million/day.
3b) The EU spends a portion of its budget on the UK, further compensating the fees (but not fully.) The UK doesn’t get to decide what this money is spent on. (Sth said ~£23 million/day when considering both rebate and EU budget spent on us, I think.)
3c) Adding onto 3b) the things commissioned by the EU come with an EU label; propaganda, despite the excess of money the UK pays into the EU.
4a) The CAP puts a tariff on many non-EU agricultural goods to protect EU trade. This reduces competition, so food prices can and have gone higher. This increases living costs. This also has the effect of hurting agricultural business in many LEDCs, stalling its development.
What are the effect on farmers if the CAP tariff was reduced in tandem with how do the subsidies to UK farmers work? I acknowledge there’s more to CAP, but I lack the time to fully understand it.
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Original post by XcitingStuart
@Trapz99
@JordanL_
@tanyapotter
@EuanF
I can't really think of any more leave voters to balance the mentioned ones.
@JordanL_
@tanyapotter
@EuanF
I can't really think of any more leave voters to balance the mentioned ones.
Why did you tag me
Original post by Trapz99
Why did you tag me
Because you support the remain camp, so you could add your input and/or stimulate debate.
Original post by XcitingStuart
Because you support the remain camp, so you could add your input and/or stimulate debate.
Nah I'm undecided now, just slightly leaning towards remain. And I don't really know anything about the specifics of the arguments for and against- I just support remain because I feel that leaving would be too risky at this specific time when there are so many other geopolitical risks. I'm not sure which way I stand so I can't add anything useful to it.
I'll watch this thread though
In response to 2C the EU proposed to amend legislation to allow increased tariffs on Chinese steel, but were opposed from doing so by the UK.
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/4eb4904e-f97e-11e5-b3f6-11d5706b613b.html#axzz4B6NFcQJO
Although a remainer I'll admit I'm no lover of the CAP.
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/4eb4904e-f97e-11e5-b3f6-11d5706b613b.html#axzz4B6NFcQJO
Although a remainer I'll admit I'm no lover of the CAP.
(edited 7 years ago)
Original post by Trapz99
Nah I'm undecided now, just slightly leaning towards remain. And I don't really know anything about the specifics of the arguments for and against- I just support remain because I feel that leaving would be too risky at this specific time when there are so many other geopolitical risks. I'm not sure which way I stand so I can't add anything useful to it.
I'll watch this thread though
I'll watch this thread though
There will almost certainly be geopolitical risks I'm the future too, and ultimately it's a case of is prompt getting another chance to leave until the EUSSR actually forms formally.
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Original post by M14B
I am upset as I have not been tagged here
Well I can't remember everyone.
Es tut mir Leid, dass ich dich vergass.
@DorianGrayism (Another person.)
Original post by JamesN88
In response to 2C the EU proposed to amend legislation to allow increased tariffs on Chinese steel, but we're opposed from doing so by the UK.
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/4eb4904e-f97e-11e5-b3f6-11d5706b613b.html#axzz4B6NFcQJO
Although a remainer I'll admit I'm no lover of the CAP.
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/4eb4904e-f97e-11e5-b3f6-11d5706b613b.html#axzz4B6NFcQJO
Although a remainer I'll admit I'm no lover of the CAP.
Curious, what ways would you go about avoiding the damage to the UK steel industry?
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Original post by XcitingStuart
Curious, what ways would you go about avoiding the damage to the UK steel industry?
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Posted from TSR Mobile
I'd do the same as the Americans and impose tariffs to stop the Chinese dumping. If it was up to me I'd set them temporarily at a level that allows the steel industry to break even until the global oversupply reduces.
https://www.theguardian.com/business/2016/may/18/uk-and-eu-urged-to-act-on-chinese-steel-dumping-after-us-hikes-duty-on-imports
Original post by Jammy Duel
There will almost certainly be geopolitical risks I'm the future too, and ultimately it's a case of is prompt getting another chance to leave until the EUSSR actually forms formally.
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Ok
I don't have the knowledge to answer your question im afraid @XcitingStuart
Original post by Foo.mp3
Were you drunk when you wrote that? Broadly speaking, what you have written is factually correct, if missing relevant info/difficult to interpret
?
I wanted scrutiny from the remain side from the reasons I've given so far.
I've barely debated it, so I was asking for people to criticise it so I could foolproof it.
And if they are valid, why do few remainers acknowledge them?
Edit #1: And is it really that hard to interpret when it's presented like that?
That's a shame.
I like formatting it like that.Posted from TSR Mobile
(edited 7 years ago)
Original post by Foo.mp3
#Remain fans generally fall into two camps:
Egocentrics ~ people who stand to lose personally as a result of #Brexit
Mancubs ~ idealists who do not understand what membership means/are ruled by fear vs. what is at stake in this referendum
Yes, it's quite difficult to read, bordering on incomprehensible
Egocentrics ~ people who stand to lose personally as a result of #Brexit
Mancubs ~ idealists who do not understand what membership means/are ruled by fear vs. what is at stake in this referendum
Yes, it's quite difficult to read, bordering on incomprehensible
I wished s.o. said that sooner.
I've done a few of my posts like that. (Though s.o. said so actually yesterday; a sibling.)In this instance where I have used it, is it ok there? (I often do it in that debate.)
https://www.reddit.com/r/Christianity/comments/40adfd/is_this_a_fair_admittedly_offensive_and/cytk4zt
(Edit: Though a part of that post is inaccurate.)
I rarely debate that anymore, but structuring it like that I prefered when I did so.
i.e. is that unpleasantness towards the structure applicable everywhere, or only in the context of this debate?
(edited 7 years ago)
Original post by XcitingStuart
2a) Relatively high energy prices due to 1a) and 1b).
2b) The EU ETC increase the cost of producing steel, similar to 1a).
2c) Countries namely China dumping steel (selling steel below cost of production), damaging UK competition. The EU has a tariff of 9% on this dumped Chinese steel, as opposed to the USA, who has a tariff of ~250%.
2d) Redundancy usw. usf. Permanent damage to the UK steel industry.
2a) Relatively high energy prices due to 1a) and 1b).
2b) The EU ETC increase the cost of producing steel, similar to 1a).
2c) Countries namely China dumping steel (selling steel below cost of production), damaging UK competition. The EU has a tariff of 9% on this dumped Chinese steel, as opposed to the USA, who has a tariff of ~250%.
2d) Redundancy usw. usf. Permanent damage to the UK steel industry.
USA has a 250% tax on Cold Rolled Steel which forms less than 10% of Steel imports.
Britain has blocked duties from being placed on Chinese Steel. So the reality is that the EU cares more UK steel than the Conservatives do.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/tata-steel-uk-government-accused-of-failing-to-protect-british-workers-by-blocking-eu-plans-to-allow-a6962446.html
Original post by Foo.mp3
Haven't followed your contributions elsewhere, and it's not unpleasantness, it's earnest (if comedic) constructive criticism (free of any ill will) 
I don't expect you of malice.
Thanks for painting it out (or I wouldn't have acknowledged the problem.)
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