Israeli soldier killed in terror attack

Ladbants

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-42192861

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Reply 1

akbar0123

Perhaps Israeli could stop occupying Palestine and killing Palestinians,

(edited 6 years ago)

Reply 2

GreenBell

Original post by Ladbants

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-42192861

This happened because a Palestinian was shot dead.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-42179318

(edited 6 years ago)

Reply 3

Bored123456789

Original post by Ladbants

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-42192861

Take a guess at how heartbroken I am.

Reply 4

anarchism101

"Terrorism" is generally against civilians, no?

Reply 5

AlexanderHam

Original post by anarchism101

"Terrorism" is generally against civilians, no?

Would you categorise the attack on Lee Rigby as an act of terror?

Also, would you categorise the attacks by Jabotinskyite extremists on British soldiers in the late 1940s as acts of terror?

Finally, if an Al-Qaeda thug cut the throat of a Met armed police officer at Waterloo Station, would you call that terrorism?

(Not asking these as rhetorical swipes... genuinely interested as a starting point for debate)

(edited 6 years ago)

Reply 6

anarchism101

Original post by AlexanderHam

Would you categorise the attack on Lee Rigby as an act of terror?

Yes. Rigby was off duty, not in uniform, and there was no obvious military logic behind killing him.

I can possibly see why a guerilla force pushing for withdrawal of an army may have a military reason for targeting off-duty soldiers at barracks, but either way that wasn't the case here.

Also, would you categorise the attacks by Jabotinskyite extremists on British soldiers in the late 1940s as acts of terror?

Generally no, though both Irgun and Lehi carried out other attacks which I would consider terrorism.

Finally, if an Al-Qaeda thug cut the throat of a Met armed police officer at Waterloo Station, would you call that terrorism?

In that situation, almost certainly, yes.

The legitimacy of attacking armed police/gendermeries I think depends on the situation. I'd say there are two broad circumstances which justify it:

i) If you're in what can be seen as a conflict zone and the armed police are involved in military or quasi-military duties. For example, in Northern Ireland the B Specials were nominally police, but regularly operated as a quasi-paramilitary force. Similarly, in the Croatian War of Independence, the Serb nationalist forces in the Krajina deliberately developed heavily armed police forces as a loophole to get round UN restrictions on their army.

ii) If you're carrying out an otherwise legitimate insurgency operations and the armed police are an obstacle. For example, in the early years of MK in 1960s South Africa, they generally only attacked buildings and infrastructure, almost always at night, when they knew it was unlikely that anyone would be around. If, in that situation, there'd been armed police around trying to block the attack with their weapons, I think it would be reasonable for the insurgents to treat them as hostile combatants.

Though, with all that said, in any situation I'd say that an attack on an armed soldier or police officer (or at least one you have good reason to believe is armed) should be seen as a lesser crime than one on a full civilian, even if only marginally (unless it can be demonstrated that the attack was completely indiscriminate and it was pure coincidence that the victim was a soldier/police officer).

I should also add that I think "terrorism" has become quite a loaded term, and one I frankly don't like much or consider that useful, I only really use it because it's so ubiquitous.

(edited 6 years ago)

Reply 7

3121

Oh no… Israel will get its somehow justified revenge by killing 500 innocent children. That'll make them even right?

Reply 8

username1826083

Soldiers getting killed.. Wow.. So unexpected..

Reply 9

AlexanderHam

Original post by anarchism101

As intelligent and incisive comment as I've come to expect from you (I really dig the reference to the B Specials, btw). I think it always comes back to whether one thinks the underlying campaign or insurgency is justified.

I would have little trouble saying that, were I a Polish or French insurgent in World War 2, I would feel justified in targeting any member of the Nazi security forces, in or out of uniform, and even civilian collaborators of my own nationality.

Equally, we both seemingly agree that in the case of Al-Qaeda, they have no genuine grievance and (perhaps we agree that..) even if they target soldiers in uniform, it is still an unjustifiable attack.

In the case of the Israeli soldier, I keep coming back to the fact that he's just a young conscript who has had no say over the policy in question. If they attacked an armed settler, I would say that would absolutely be a justified use of force against an illegal invader. But some 19 year old fresh out of high school who has no choice but to be there?

As I said, it probably keeps coming back to how one views the justifiability of the originating "grievance".

Btw, have you read Peter Taylor's books about The Troubles? They were made into three excellent TV series. Here's part of one of them, the interviews they have, whether with your average squaddie or Home Office mandarins or with 'Darkie' Hughes, are first-rate.

(and this first episode would probably go to another use of force on which we'd probably disagree.. Lough Gall)

[video="youtube;SpRGEZYKnd4"]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SpRGEZYKnd4&list=PLDB143DAA1CA09B7D[/video]

Reply 10

AlexanderHam

Original post by OvensForJews

TSR users most fight anti-semitism! fight anti-Jew hate

I was wondering... what's it like to be an absolute failure of a human being? What's it like to be an unmitigated piece of ****? I'm very curious, please tell us what it's like.

Reply 11

AlexanderHam

Original post by Zxyn

Oh no… Israel will get its somehow justified revenge by killing 500 innocent children. That'll make them even right?

When has Israel deliberately killed 500 innocent children? Link please?

Shrieking and hysteria and exaggeration really doesn't contribute to this discussion

Reply 12

3121

Original post by AlexanderHam

When has Israel deliberately killed 500 innocent children? Link please?

Shrieking and hysteria and exaggeration really doesn't contribute to this discussion

https://reliefweb.int/sites/reliefweb.int/files/resources/annual_humanitarian_overview_2014_english_final.pdf

Skip to page 4.

Reply 13

AlexanderHam

Original post by Zxyn

https://reliefweb.int/sites/reliefweb.int/files/resources/annual_humanitarian_overview_2014_english_final.pdf

Skip to page 4.

Where does it mention Israel killing any civilian deliberately, let alone 500 children in one go?

Reply 14

Napp

Original post by OvensForJews

TSR users most fight anti-semitism! fight anti-Jew hate

Hating Israel isn't the same as hating Jews...

Reply 15

Napp

Original post by AlexanderHam

Where does it mention Israel killing any civilian deliberately, let alone 500 children in one go?

I would point there are numerous instances of Israel targeting civilians a case in point would be their Dahiya Doctrine.

Reply 16

looloo2134

Original post by Zxyn

Oh no… Israel will get its somehow justified revenge by killing 500 innocent children. That'll make them even right?

i think your confused it was the Lebanese who massacred Palestinians.

War of the Camps over 3700 Palestinians massacred

Sabra & Shatila massacre 3500 Palestinians massacred

I been to Beirut the Palestinians are treated terrible by Arab brothers and sisters

http://hrbrief.org/2015/02/treatment-of-palestinian-refugees-in-lebanon/

Reply 17

Napp

Original post by looloo2134

i think your confused it was the Lebanese who massacred Palestinians.

/

One can only assume by 'Lebanese' you mean the Israeli backed Christian Militia - Phalange. I'm not sure if you're just unaware of what happened or are some how trying to excuse what the IDF did? They might not have physically pulled the triggers but to even hint at them not being heinously culpable is a grotesque and spurious lie. Not to mention that asserting that the Lebanese as a whole are somehow guilty of that terrible atrocity is ridiculous.

Although having been to several of the camps around Beirut I won't disagree with your general sentiment on the poor treatment of the Palestinians.

Reply 18

looloo2134

Original post by Napp

I have been to Israel and Arab Israelis 1/5 of the population enjoy full rights, education, health care, employment, higher education in fact Christian Arabs are the highest educated and most successful group. Arab Israelis can vote in Palestine elections and do not have to do military service unlike Jewish young people.

Reply 19

GreenBell

Original post by AlexanderHam

When has Israel deliberately killed 500 innocent children? Link please?

Shrieking and hysteria and exaggeration really doesn't contribute to this discussion