Politics Post Grad

Have you looked into constituional/public law LLMs?

http://www.lse.ac.uk/collections/law/programmes/llm/llm-public.htm
http://www.ucl.ac.uk/laws/prospective/llm/index.shtml?llm_spec_23

Not based within politics, but you can usually take optionals from the politics/government departments.

I looked at doing this, and realistically it's often easier to access constitutionalism from the legal side of things (and most will consider you with a politics degree). Otherwise, investigate whether taking a British politics MA would allow you to take optional modules in law, perhaps.

Long term, if you want to go into academia, you'll be looking at needing to take an additional research Masters before your PhD, which again might be something to consider - are you satisfied at the thought of taking two?

Reply 2

apotoftea

19

IlexAquifolium

Long term, if you want to go into academia, you'll be looking at needing to take an additional research Masters before your PhD, which again might be something to consider - are you satisfied at the thought of taking two?

Is that subject dependent? As I know I won't have to do an MRes before going onto a PhD, my MA will be enough

In response to the OP - re: Birkbeck, are you aware that your course will be run in the evening?

Reply 3

Stickyvix

Is that subject dependent? As I know I won't have to do an MRes before going onto a PhD, my MA will be enough

In response to the OP - re: Birkbeck, are you aware that your course will be run in the evening?

Vix: It is, yes :smile:

. For politics it's standard to do an ESRC recognised MRes before your PhD, so a fair number of people end up with two masters. If you're not interested in funding, it is sometimes possible to begin a PhD with a non-research Masters, but you usually have to convince the admissions board that you have a methodologically solid framework which can be tricky without specific training, as coverage of methods at undergrad is patchy to say the least (and more often than not non-existent in 'normal' politics MA programmes).

Reply 4

apotoftea

19

Ah thankies. Once again it boils down to funding... :rolleyes:

That makes sense actually as my prospective MA, even though it's a taught one, it was still ok to use for the Research Prep Masters funding application (well as far as I got anyway...)

Reply 5

Stickyvix

Ah thankies. Once again it boils down to funding... :rolleyes:

That makes sense actually as my prospective MA, even though it's a taught one, it was still ok to use for the Research Prep Masters funding application (well as far as I got anyway...)

Yeah, the AHRC are much less strict. The ESRC's current board have got bees in their collective bonnets about quants training and are flinging money left, right and centre to try and get more people to number-crunch through their PhDs. Normal socsci MA programmes rarely bother with such diversions. I think the AHRC are more or less content if the course demonstrates that you turn up, read books and think deep thoughts. :biggrin:

Reply 6

OP

thanks for the replies..

yeah i know it's an evening thing at Birkbeck.

with regads to the MRes thing, the reason i haven't chosen an MRes course is because i'm not set on academia so therefore can't commit to it.
I can't submit research ideas for a 1+3 thing at the moment because i'm not sure about it.

With regards to the ESRC funding, are they completely strict on that?
Or is there some room for negotiation?
Does it depend on there being some (if any) methods training on the MA.

I've spoken to a few admissions tutors and they've said that you should still be able to do a PhD with the MA that they're offering at the university.

thanks for those links...
if i was to do a course like that and move into politics academia (after a PhD)..do you think that would be ok?
what would my second masters be (as they don't have a methods part to those LLMs)?

thanks again...i really appreciate it.

Reply 7

OP

it seems as if UCL require me to do a GDL.
and LSE will look at each application on a case by case basis if you apply without a law degree...i may have to ring them up.

Reply 8

OP

upon further exploration, there are two routes to follow:

1)
MA (1 year)
MRes (1 year) (might not be applicable)
PhD (3 years)

total: 4 / 5 years

2)
CPE/Graduate LLB (1/2 years)
LLM (1 year)
MRes (1 year) (might not be applicable)
PhD (3 years)

total: 5/6 years (7 with a MRes)

damn.

Reply 9

oriel historian

2

There's a third way, and forgive me if this sounds or seems a bit silly at first glance. Why not do it through a history research masters? I mean you can do constitutional history in the context of a particular timeframe, you get the bonus of AHRC funding routes and the ease of being able to slot into other PhD programmes because history is attachable in most places. It'd mean you could do the research aspect and avoid having to waste extra time doing a taught and then research masters. There's absolutely nothing stoping you doing constitutional history (for which you'd probably be able to squeeze in the aspects of constitutionalism that you want to) as a best of both worlds type scenario?

Reply 10

oriel historian

There's a third way, and forgive me if this sounds or seems a bit silly at first glance. Why not do it through a history research masters? I mean you can do constitutional history in the context of a particular timeframe, you get the bonus of AHRC funding routes and the ease of being able to slot into other PhD programmes because history is attachable in most places. It'd mean you could do the research aspect and avoid having to waste extra time doing a taught and then research masters. There's absolutely nothing stoping you doing constitutional history (for which you'd probably be able to squeeze in the aspects of constitutionalism that you want to) as a best of both worlds type scenario?

This did occur to me, too. There's so much cross over with constitutionalism, it's often more a matter of finding the right supervisor rather than the right discipline. For example, Vernon Bogdanor (I'm sure you'll have come across him OH :wink:

) - technically in politics, but writes books on law and history. The lack of fussiness of the AHRC is also a definite advantage to this route - but you will have to make sure that any proposal you submit in the future has a definite historical/arts slant - if you're planning on adding any original social research, for example, they will probably look askance and suggest the ESRC so you'd be back where you started.

As for the OP, definitely speak to LSE if you're interested. I looked into it and I seem to recall there was some leeway if you'd previously taken a social science degree, particularly given the crossover in optional modules with the government department.

As far as the ESRC goes, I quote from their applicant FAQs:

(+3) studentships are for students wishing to undertake a postgraduate degree by research who have already completed appropriate research training (usually through an ESRC recognised Masters course)

Points to note: it doesn't necessarily have to be a recognised MRes, but you have to be able to convince the ESRC that what you've done is equivalent - the convener of the ESRC awards at my department told me he'd only ever seen them accept that line of argument once. In every other case, they told the candidate to apply for the 1+3. Universities may be more lenient if you're self-funding.

And yes, there'd be no problem flitting between law and politics. I know many who've done it.

As I say, it was something I seriously considered. I chickened out in the end 'cos I couldn't afford it. :wink:

Reply 11

OP

thanks again for the replies

i was considering the historical route, however my issue would be the PhD. As said above it would have to have an historical focus and I don't think I would want to do that. Therefore I'd have to go back to soemthing that would be funded by the ESRC.

I had 2 questions reagrding the MRes thing.
A couple of MAs that I have seen is recognised by the ESRC because (i think) of the nature of the course.
Therefore, if I did pursue a PhD I could get the +3 funding.
However if I didn't, I would have the masters.
Alternatively, if I did an MRes and didn't go on to a PhD, would it be seen as a stand-alone qualification?
One of my issues is that it because it is preparation for a PhD, if i decided that I did not want to go down the academia route, I'd be left with something that isn't quite the same as a 'masters'.
What do you think?

Secondly, if I did an MRes, do I need to submit a research proposal?
I don't think I do. I was under the impression that it was for (research degree) PhD applications.

I'll definitely call LSE (and UCL) and see what they say.

thanks again.

Reply 12

ettasoeur

This might be a bit OT, but it's I hope you don't mind me asking anyway...

How important is work experience when applying to Politics PG? I'm in a similar position to forrestgump1083, aiming for academia via MPhil and then PhD. (Though in my case there's no question of MRes, I've got some catching up to do!) Correct me if I'm wrong, but that doesn't sound like they'd ask for much relevant work experince, right?

Reply 13

forrestgump1083

i was considering the historical route, however my issue would be the PhD. As said above it would have to have an historical focus and I don't think I would want to do that. Therefore I'd have to go back to soemthing that would be funded by the ESRC.

Doesn't necessarily have to be history; the AHRC also fund (constitutional) law PhDs. However, it's quite a fine line and you would have to be careful on which side you fell.

forrestgump1083

I had 2 questions reagrding the MRes thing.
A couple of MAs that I have seen is recognised by the ESRC because (i think) of the nature of the course.
Therefore, if I did pursue a PhD I could get the +3 funding.

Yep, that's what happens. The MRes (I'm using this as a generic term; they are just as often MAs or MScs, it's the content and accreditation that distinguishes them) does tend to be fairly dry though, I don't think you'd take it unless you had to.

forrestgump1083

Alternatively, if I did an MRes and didn't go on to a PhD, would it be seen as a stand-alone qualification?
One of my issues is that it because it is preparation for a PhD, if i decided that I did not want to go down the academia route, I'd be left with something that isn't quite the same as a 'masters'.
What do you think?

It is and it isn't. Obviously, you have a masters qualification. However, the content is so specialised as a preparation masters that you wouldn't be learning a great deal about the subject; you learn how to research a topic. You can quit after the masters and have it on your CV, but it's a bit of a waste I suppose spending a year planning a piece of research you don't get to do :wink:

forrestgump1083

Secondly, if I did an MRes, do I need to submit a research proposal?
I don't think I do. I was under the impression that it was for (research degree) PhD applications.

Right. I did, but I applied directly for the 1+3 scheme. IIRC, I would have had to submit one anyway for two of the three MA/MSc programmes I applied for; I think it wasn't necessary for one of them. So it depends a bit on the university as to how defined they want the proposal if you're not going for funding.

ettasoeur

How important is work experience when applying to Politics PG? I'm in a similar position to forrestgump1083, aiming for academia via MPhil and then PhD. (Though in my case there's no question of MRes, I've got some catching up to do!) Correct me if I'm wrong, but that doesn't sound like they'd ask for much relevant work experince, right?

Nope, it's primarily academic. Work experience can't hurt, I guess, but in my experience since you're applying for a four-year academic course, the admissions tutors need to know you have the capability to succeed in that environment. I'm sure experience may help if your application is otherwise unusual, but I applied with none whatsoever aside from voluntary work and I didn't have a problem.

Reply 14

OP

thanks again.

i see what you mean about it being a fine line.
i think because i'm not that set on doing a history-based masters i'm more inclined to find a politics based course.
the idea of an LLM sounds good (especially because i'm interested in law) but i don't know whether spending the extra time on a CPE/2yr LLB is something that i could do. i'll have to speak to some people.

i haven't really looked at many MRes courses but i would imagine them to be focusing on the 'how to research side of things'. Most of the ESRC accredited MAs that I have seen have included a module on quant/qual analysis or something similar, and I'd be happy to do something like that along with the normal subject modules. Anything more research focused than that, and i'd probably stay away.

I think the reason i'm focusing on the MAs or ESRC accredited MAs (with one module of methods) are so that I'm able to have that standalone degree if I decide not to pursue academia.

I'll contact some LLM providers and see what comes of it.

Thanks again..you've cleared up a few things for me.

Reply 15

forrestgump1083

thanks again.

i see what you mean about it being a fine line.
i think because i'm not that set on doing a history-based masters i'm more inclined to find a politics based course.
the idea of an LLM sounds good (especially because i'm interested in law) but i don't know whether spending the extra time on a CPE/2yr LLB is something that i could do. i'll have to speak to some people.

you may not have to do the CPE to do a constitutional law LLM since there's a large crossover between the two subjects.

forrestgump1083

i haven't really looked at many MRes courses but i would imagine them to be focusing on the 'how to research side of things'. Most of the ESRC accredited MAs that I have seen have included a module on quant/qual analysis or something similar, and I'd be happy to do something like that along with the normal subject modules. Anything more research focused than that, and i'd probably stay away.

They're usually all methodology, with one non-methods optional module. Not much fun for its own sake, to be honest. :s-smilie:

Reply 16

SimontKaye

LSE's MSc Political Theory looks good. So good that I'll probably be there myself next academic year... come join me! :smile:

Seriously, though, the LSE is one of the best places for social sciences in the UK.

Reply 17

OP

IlexAquifolium

They're usually all methodology, with one non-methods optional module. Not much fun for its own sake, to be honest. :s-smilie:

yeah i see what you mean.

one question wich you may be able to help with.

if i did an LLM and then went on to a law PhD how would the funding work?
As far as I know (correct me if i'm wrong) you can get AHRC and ESRC funding for a law PhD
The AHRC wouldn't need the methods training part but the ESRC would.
However, the LLMs that I have seen don't have a methods module as far as i can tell. So does that mean I would need to have a second masters again?
Or would I have to rely on getting AHRC funding?

if i transferred to a politics PhD (which shouldn't be too difficult) how would the funding work then?
Because, the AHRC funding doesn't apply and i wouldn't be eligble for the ESRC funding because, again, i wouldn't have the methods training.

therefore, i could go for the law PhD but the issue is what would happen afterwards?
would it be easy to transfer over to academia in politics department?
if so, that's great.
if not, i don't think i could pursue academia in the law deptartment because i wouldn't have prractised law as a barrister or solicitor (something which, as far as i know, everyone does).

i don't want to be in the position that after an LLM i'm stuck without funding for a PhD (or with a lack of flexibility career-wise).

if you could enlighten me further, that would be great.
thanks

Reply 18