Animal use at Oxbridge

*puts the Do Not Treat card away* :p:

As for the numbers, I can put it in context (well, sort of - the table I've got isn't actually all that helpful). I'll have to ask the person that made the table where they got the numbers from.

Angelil

*puts the Do Not Treat card away* :p:

As for the numbers, I can put it in context (well, sort of - the table I've got isn't actually all that helpful). I'll have to ask the person that made the table where they got the numbers from.

Yes, the 'sheep / cattle / pigs' versus 'wildlife killed by cats' thing looks very dubious, actually. I have two cats and they kill, on average, one bird a year between them. Though I know that sort of reasoning is the opposite of scientific! :p:

But I also see way more roadkill everyday than I imagine cats are able to kill. It's dead pheasants and hedgehogs galore around here.

Reply 23

Yeah...wonder if roadkill was intended to be included in that table at any point?

Reply 24

the_alba

12

Angelil

Yeah...wonder if roadkill was intended to be included in that table at any point?

Aye, but how would anyone determine the figures accurately? And come to think of it, how does anyone know how many birds and mice are killed by cats each year? Surely it's just an estimation, and could be very wrong.

Reply 25

indeed...I shall have to chat to the person that made the table in the first place (I was just given the memory stick with all the presentations on for a school talk :/ ).

Reply 26

thomasjtl

9

it is indeed an estimation, but so are all statistics- you'd be suprised how accurate extrapolations for relatively small samples can be, though (like a 99% chance that a value is within +/-10% of the quoted figure).

Reply 27

chocolatebear

i personally think that unless you are vegetarian it's quite hard to be against animal testing since animals are reared in probably more cruel conditions, and rather than get medical benefit out of it you just get a meal

Reply 28

Turdburger

Agreed (As a anti-test veggie :p:

)

Reply 29

I'm interested by people who are anti-test. Do you never accept any treatment for illness then? Or donate to charities such as Cancer Research or charities that support research into Parkinson's disease that may use animals in researching further treatments that may help to ease people's pain and perhaps even one day cure these illnesses? I'm geniunely interested as to how you fit your anti-testing beliefs into your everyday lives.

Reply 30

Turdburger

I wouldnt donate to a charity that I knew did animal research, I just dont believe in the overwelming superiority of humans over other animals, so yes, as bad as it sounds I would allow research to suffer, and effectivley let people die to save a much larger number of animals lives.

I feel that if there was a more intelligent race came to earth, I wouldnt want them to experiment on me and kind of use the do unto other what you want them to do to you principle,

Do you never accept any treatment for illness then?

I would, but out of pure selfishness, more a reflection on me being a not very good person that the belief system, I do do stuff like only buying free range eggs and im a vegetarian, so I like to think im not totally terrible.

Reply 31

chocolatebear

i personally think that unless you are vegetarian it's quite hard to be against animal testing since animals are reared in probably more cruel conditions, and rather than get medical benefit out of it you just get a meal

Those who are against animal testing generally think that you should buy organic, free range etc.

Reply 32

Turdburger

I would [accept medical treatment], but out of pure selfishness, more a reflection on me being a not very good person that the belief system, I do do stuff like only buying free range eggs and im a vegetarian, so I like to think im not totally terrible.

So since you accept medical treatment, you do in fact support animal research.

Reply 33

Angelil

So since you accept medical treatment, you do in fact support animal research.

That doesn't follow. He says he would accept medical treatment out of purely selfish (non-moral) motives. That doesn't commit him to saying that he supports animal research, or thinks it moral. All it commits him to saying is that it is logically possible for him to be a better person that he actually is. That's a very modest claim - I'm certainly not the best (morally) person I could be. Nor is any other human, I think.

Reply 34

What he's saying is that in principle he doesn't support animal research, but in practice he does (since he accepts drugs for medical treatment that in all probability have their foundations in animal research). What does that make him?

If people aren't for animal research, then that's fine. I'm not here to change people's minds. But people could at least be consistent.

Reply 35

HCD

I'm absolutely for animal research. I like animals, but I think animal research is just too important. Progress and the bigger picture are more important to me.

Reply 36

Angelil

What he's saying is that in principle he doesn't support animal research, but in practice he does (since he accepts drugs for medical treatment that in all probability have their foundations in animal research). What does that make him?

A person who's not morally perfect. Which he accepts.

If people aren't for animal research, then that's fine. I'm not here to change people's minds. But people could at least be consistent.

There's no inconsistency.

1. It is wrong to test on animals (and use drugs which have been tested on animals)
2. I am not morally perfect (ie. I sometimes act wrongly)
3. I would (wrongly) use drugs which are tested on animals

is perfectly consistent.

Don't get me wrong - I'm not against animal testing - I really don't know enough about it to make a judgement call. But the folks who are pro-testing shouldn't use shoddy arguments.

Reply 37

That's true, that particular argument is consistent. However, most anti-testers aren't that cogent!

Reply 38

Turdburger

I would be intrested to know if people who are pro test have a higher tendancy to be for or agaisnt abortion.

Reply 39