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Reply 1
Kolya
I was musing and realized that it's not too easy to see what the difference is between A=BA = B and A    BA \iff B. Can anybody explain the difference, if there is one?

I may be being stupid but I can't see how you would think they were the same.

If you replace an iff with an equals, the statement won't usually make sense.

Can you give an example of why you think they are the same?
Reply 2
They are both used for completely different things
Reply 3
notnek
I may be being stupid but I can't see how you would think they were the same.

If you replace an iff with an equals, the statement won't usually make sense.

Can you give an example of why you think they are the same?
Err, I think my main problem is I don't actually know what the equals sign, "=", means. ;no; How do we define it?
Reply 4
'is the same as' (i.e. equal to)
Reply 5
"Two plus two equals four" is true, but "two plus two iff four" doesn't really make sense.
= means, "is the same as". 1 + 1 is the same as two. 1+1 if and only if two is something completely different.
Reply 7
The equality sign can mean different things.

I think mainly, '=' is a relation between two elements of a set which is reflexive, transitive and symmetric.

I don't think that's a very good definition though.
Reply 8
tommmmmmmmmm
"Two plus two equals four" is true, but "two plus two iff four" doesn't really make sense.
Why not? Assume 2+(1++)2 + (1++) is a true statement. Then by the definition of addition: ((2+1)++)((2+1)++) is true, but by the same reasoning (((2+0)++)++)(((2+0)++)++) is true. From the axioms, 2+0=22+0 = 2. And so ((2++)++)((2++)++). But by definition this 4. And so 4 is true if 2+2. Repeat for the other relations and possible truth-values. What's the problem?
Kolya
Why not? Assume ((0++)++)+((0++)++)((0++)++) + ((0++)++) is a true statement. Then by the definition of addition. ((((0++)++)++)++)((((0++)++)++)++) is true. But by definition this is 4. And so 4 is true if 2+2. Repeat for the other relations and possible truth-values. What's the problem?

In what way is ((0++)++)+((0++)++) a statement? Correct me if I'm wrong, because I've never studied formal logic, but that doesn't appear to be a statement to me, just an expression. The statement ((0++)++)+((0++)++)=((((0++)++)++)++) is true.

In logic, I don't think there is much of a real difference between equals and iff. I'd always reserve iff for logical statements and equals for arithmetic statements, though. I haven't seen "A = B" floating around very much. They're both equivalence relations denoting that, informally speaking, one side is exactly the same as the other.
I may be very wrong here but I believe although they are similar... Its a convention that we use the equals sign to indicate equivalence between two mathematical expressions whereas iff is used to show equivalence between two statements... :s-smilie: Not very sure though but it makes sense to me :p:
Reply 11
a=b <=> c=d would make sense
a<=> b doesn't

it has to link 2 ideas/equations rather than two values, as the equals sign does.
Reply 12
generalebriety
In what way is ((0++)++)+((0++)++) a statement? Correct me if I'm wrong, because I've never studied formal logic, but that doesn't appear to be a statement to me, just an expression. The statement ((0++)++)+((0++)++)=((((0++)++)++)++) is true.

In logic, I don't think there is much of a real difference between equals and iff. I'd always reserve iff for logical statements and equals for arithmetic statements, though.
Yes, that seems to be the convention but I just wasn't sure if it was simply a convention or was based on some subtle difference in their definition. In retrospect, I don't seem to know enough about either maths or logic to say if it is anything more than a convention in maths (or if the convention comes from a logical background). I don't even know what the difference is in logic - my textbook is unclear on it*. So, all in all, probably best to leave it until I know more. ;no;

*It initially defines equality as a predicate but then treats it almost exactly like a connective, and it defines iff as a connective. Unfortunately, as arithmetic in logic is plain nasty, I have no idea what kind of object "4" is.
Kolya
Yes, that seems to be the convention but I just wasn't sure if it was simply a convention or was based on some subtle difference in their definition. In retrospect, I don't seem to know enough about either maths or logic to say if it is anything more than a convention in maths (or if the convention comes from a logical background). I don't even know what the difference is in logic - my textbook is unclear on it*. So, all in all, probably best to leave it until I know more. ;no;

*It initially defines equality as a predicate but then treats it almost exactly like a connective, and it defines iff as a connective. Unfortunately, as arithmetic in logic is plain nasty, I have no idea what kind of object "4" is.

I'd say there was a slight difference between them - two statements can imply each other without actually being exactly the same statement, even if they're "equivalent". I'd have defined equals as "x = y if, given any statement p, p(x) if p(y)". Hmm, I don't know either. Perhaps better to wait till someone more experienced comes along.
Reply 14
generalebriety
I'd say there was a slight difference between them - two statements can imply each other without actually being exactly the same statement, even if they're "equivalent". I'd have defined equals as "x = y if, given any statement p, p(x) if p(y)". Hmm, I don't know either. Perhaps better to wait till someone more experienced comes along.
Very roughly, it seems that equals has the possibility of connecting individual 'objects' (but don't ask me to define that!); it does not appear that iff can connect objects meaningfully - it needs to connect objects with properties? (That seems to be what you are saying, and it makes sense with what I know...)
Kolya
Very roughly, it seems that equals has the possibility of connecting individual 'objects' (but don't ask me to define that!); it does not appear that iff can connect objects meaningfully - it needs to connect objects with properties? (That seems to be what you are saying, and it makes sense with what I know...)

Yes, I think that's right. :smile: Equals is a relation between two elements of a set, and iff is a relation between two statements.

Better wait for someone more experienced in case I'm making this up, though.
I don't see how anyone could possibly think that. There may be some situations where they could be used similarly, but there are hundreds where they're completely different. F iff ma???? I'll be nice to you = you give me some cake (bad example, but still).
LJoll
I'll be nice to you = you give me some cake (bad example, but still).

I think Kolya's question was more "why is equals not appropriate in this case?". If "I'll be nice to you" implies "you give me some cake" and vice-versa, why then are the two statements not equivalent? If they are, why can't we use an "=" sign to link them?

I don't think he was ever suggesting "2 + 2 iff 4". Though there are easily ways to make this realistic: a set has cardinality (i.e. size) 2+2 iff it has cardinality 4, and since the positive integers can be defined in terms of sets...
Reply 18
LJoll
I don't see how anyone could possibly think that. There may be some situations where they could be used similarly, but there are hundreds where they're completely different. F iff ma???? I'll be nice to you = you give me some cake (bad example, but still).
Sure, we intuitively know which is appropriate to use, but what I was trying to ask is: what are the underlying reasons for using the connectives in the way that we do? They are certainly used in similar ways, so I was (and, really, still am) hoping to identify why they are used differently.
Well one of them implies that two things are exactly the same and the other says that one things can only be true if the other is true, but does not necessitate any specific relationship between the properties of the two things.

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