Is Messi now the undisputed greatest of all time?
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Original post by Zerforax
[*]
And also different quality across the field. There is now so much money in football that millions are trying to make that their dream every day. How many do you think were playing at a professional level in the 50s to 70s?
No doubt Pele was way better than everyone else around him but it doesn't mean as much when the others probably weren't that good!
The quality of footballers these days are taken from granted. A player in any top league is still quality, nevermind looking at the best of the best. Even then, Messi has managed to stand out above them all for almost 20 years.
Also so much more video analysis these days - oppositions know all about players these days so everyone knew how good Messi was and tried to come up with plans to stop him. Yet he still makes a mockery of them all today.
You can't even find much footage of Pele these days. You think opposition knew what to expect other than hearing he's a quality footballer?
And also different quality across the field. There is now so much money in football that millions are trying to make that their dream every day. How many do you think were playing at a professional level in the 50s to 70s?
No doubt Pele was way better than everyone else around him but it doesn't mean as much when the others probably weren't that good!
The quality of footballers these days are taken from granted. A player in any top league is still quality, nevermind looking at the best of the best. Even then, Messi has managed to stand out above them all for almost 20 years.
Also so much more video analysis these days - oppositions know all about players these days so everyone knew how good Messi was and tried to come up with plans to stop him. Yet he still makes a mockery of them all today.
You can't even find much footage of Pele these days. You think opposition knew what to expect other than hearing he's a quality footballer?
[*]
More players could win the Ballan d'Or 20-25 years ago than today. Zidane, Figo, Rivaldo, Ronaldo, Maldini, Cantona, Giggs, Klinsmann, Mathaus, Sammer, Kohler, Del Piero, Vieri, Van Nistelrooy, Raul, Batistuta, Ronaldinho, Weir etc. etc.
(edited 1 year ago)
Original post by Zerforax
With Messi finally having won the only prize missing from his collection, has the debate been concluded?
863 club appearances with 706 goals. Played 195 for Argentina and 114 scored.
Club honours
Barcelona
Paris Saint-Germain
Argentina U20
Argentina U23
Argentina
Individual honours
[*]Ballon d'Or/FIFA Ballon d'Or: 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012, 2015, 2019, 2021
[*]FIFA World Player of the Year: 2009
[*]The Best FIFA Men's Player: 2019
[*]European Golden Shoe: 2009–10, 2011–12, 2012–13, 2016–17, 2017–18, 2018–19
[*]FIFA World Cup Golden Ball: 2014, 2022
[*]FIFA Club World Cup Golden Ball: 2009, 2011
[*]Laureus World Sportsman of the Year: 2020
[*]La Liga Best Player: 2008–09, 2009–10, 2010–11, 2011–12, 2012–13, 2014–15
[*]Pichichi Trophy: 2009−10, 2011–12, 2012−13, 2016–17, 2017−18, 2018–19, 2019–20, 2020–21
863 club appearances with 706 goals. Played 195 for Argentina and 114 scored.
Club honours
Barcelona
•
Paris Saint-Germain
Argentina U20
Argentina U23
Argentina
Individual honours
[*]Ballon d'Or/FIFA Ballon d'Or: 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012, 2015, 2019, 2021
[*]FIFA World Player of the Year: 2009
[*]The Best FIFA Men's Player: 2019
[*]European Golden Shoe: 2009–10, 2011–12, 2012–13, 2016–17, 2017–18, 2018–19
[*]FIFA World Cup Golden Ball: 2014, 2022
[*]FIFA Club World Cup Golden Ball: 2009, 2011
[*]Laureus World Sportsman of the Year: 2020
[*]La Liga Best Player: 2008–09, 2009–10, 2010–11, 2011–12, 2012–13, 2014–15
[*]Pichichi Trophy: 2009−10, 2011–12, 2012−13, 2016–17, 2017−18, 2018–19, 2019–20, 2020–21
[*]Frankly the love in for Messi has left me feeling sick. It's not his world cup but Argentina
Wonderful player but if you want to compare him to Ronaldo then compare him to Ronaldo at age 35. When he was winning triple champions leagues and still absolutely dominating at the highest level. Ronaldo brings the abuse on himself with his arrogance but if I am honest, if its 90ty minute in a big knock out tie then I take Ronaldo every single time.
But Messi will go down as the best ever. That the media are so up gos arse is not his doing. But it is tiresome
Original post by Zürich
[*]Frankly the love in for Messi has left me feeling sick. It's not his world cup but Argentina
Wonderful player but if you want to compare him to Ronaldo then compare him to Ronaldo at age 35. When he was winning triple champions leagues and still absolutely dominating at the highest level. Ronaldo brings the abuse on himself with his arrogance but if I am honest, if its 90ty minute in a big knock out tie then I take Ronaldo every single time.
But Messi will go down as the best ever. That the media are so up gos arse is not his doing. But it is tiresome
Wonderful player but if you want to compare him to Ronaldo then compare him to Ronaldo at age 35. When he was winning triple champions leagues and still absolutely dominating at the highest level. Ronaldo brings the abuse on himself with his arrogance but if I am honest, if its 90ty minute in a big knock out tie then I take Ronaldo every single time.
But Messi will go down as the best ever. That the media are so up gos arse is not his doing. But it is tiresome
[*]Messi from 2009-2012 was on another level to Ronaldo. The Maradona of club football in this period.
Ronaldo was scoring a goal a game in a poor Real side
Messi had iniesta, xavi etc and a team built around him
Don't get me wrong, I think Messi is the better player too but I find it quite abnormal how many soyboys get so passionate about it. He wasn't that much better than Ronaldo, at all
Messi had iniesta, xavi etc and a team built around him
Don't get me wrong, I think Messi is the better player too but I find it quite abnormal how many soyboys get so passionate about it. He wasn't that much better than Ronaldo, at all
Original post by Zürich
Ronaldo was scoring a goal a game in a poor Real side
Messi had iniesta, xavi etc and a team built around him
Don't get me wrong, I think Messi is the better player too but I find it quite abnormal how many soyboys get so passionate about it. He wasn't that much better than Ronaldo, at all
Messi had iniesta, xavi etc and a team built around him
Don't get me wrong, I think Messi is the better player too but I find it quite abnormal how many soyboys get so passionate about it. He wasn't that much better than Ronaldo, at all
Messi could beat 4-5 quality defenders to score a solo goal against very good sides like Ream Madrid. On his day Messi was just surreal, like Maradona in the 1986 World Cup.
Original post by StarLinyx
Messi could beat 4-5 quality defenders to score a solo goal against very good sides like Ream Madrid. On his day Messi was just surreal, like Maradona in the 1986 World Cup.
So could Ronaldo
And bullet headers from corners
Sssssuuuuuiiiii
Original post by Zürich
Ronaldo was scoring a goal a game in a poor Real side
Messi had iniesta, xavi etc and a team built around him
Don't get me wrong, I think Messi is the better player too but I find it quite abnormal how many soyboys get so passionate about it. He wasn't that much better than Ronaldo, at all
Messi had iniesta, xavi etc and a team built around him
Don't get me wrong, I think Messi is the better player too but I find it quite abnormal how many soyboys get so passionate about it. He wasn't that much better than Ronaldo, at all
It's difficult to compare them really as they have completely different styles of play. If I was a manager and had to pick one for my team it would be Messi every time. If he didn't score then he creates the chances for other players to score. A more rounded player than Ronaldo.
I just wish people would stop comparing Messi with Maradona though. Maradona had one good world cup and people are basing his ability on that. He was not as good as people made out. He was very temperamental, quite selfish at times and had a lot of bad games. There were dozens of players that had more skill than Maradona.
Original post by nutz99
It's difficult to compare them really as they have completely different styles of play. If I was a manager and had to pick one for my team it would be Messi every time. If he didn't score then he creates the chances for other players to score. A more rounded player than Ronaldo.
I just wish people would stop comparing Messi with Maradona though. Maradona had one good world cup and people are basing his ability on that. He was not as good as people made out. He was very temperamental, quite selfish at times and had a lot of bad games. There were dozens of players that had more skill than Maradona.
I just wish people would stop comparing Messi with Maradona though. Maradona had one good world cup and people are basing his ability on that. He was not as good as people made out. He was very temperamental, quite selfish at times and had a lot of bad games. There were dozens of players that had more skill than Maradona.
Well he won Napoli their only Serie A too
Maradonna was real. A maverick living on a diet of cocaine and prostitutes. And he used to get assaulted on the pitch, seriously watch a video of the tackles he got and tell me Messi would last 5 minutes before needing his psychologist
Original post by Zürich
Well he won Napoli their only Serie A too
Maradonna was real. A maverick living on a diet of cocaine and prostitutes. And he used to get assaulted on the pitch, seriously watch a video of the tackles he got and tell me Messi would last 5 minutes before needing his psychologist
Maradonna was real. A maverick living on a diet of cocaine and prostitutes. And he used to get assaulted on the pitch, seriously watch a video of the tackles he got and tell me Messi would last 5 minutes before needing his psychologist
It was different in those days. Very little protection from the refs and you had to try to ride the tackles. Just lucky he never came up against Roy Keane. If he went past Keane once he would never do it again. There were some right animals around then.
Original post by nutz99
It was different in those days. Very little protection from the refs and you had to try to ride the tackles. Just lucky he never came up against Roy Keane. If he went past Keane once he would never do it again. There were some right animals around then.
Oh no Roy Keane was not the level I am talking about. Try Graham Souness.
So maradonna was competing in a different arena against lions and tigers. Messi is just against kittens
I think Messi was the greatest footballer of all time already, even before he won the World Cup.
This sort of thing can’t just be decided by one match or one tournament alone. What makes a player great is the fact that they can perform at the highest level consistently over a long period of time, in many different contexts. And Messi has done that better than anyone else; that’s the reason why he has broken so many records. (Though of course Cristiano Ronaldo is also up there in that regard.)
The fact that Messi has won the World Cup now just finally puts to rest the argument that Maradona, Pele, Zidane, Ronaldo Nazario etc. were better than Messi just because they won World Cups and he hadn’t. But I don’t think this was ever a valid argument to begin with, as it totally disregards everything that a player did (or didn’t do) outside of those few matches.
As Jorge Valdano quite succinctly put it: “Messi is Maradona every day”.
This sort of thing can’t just be decided by one match or one tournament alone. What makes a player great is the fact that they can perform at the highest level consistently over a long period of time, in many different contexts. And Messi has done that better than anyone else; that’s the reason why he has broken so many records. (Though of course Cristiano Ronaldo is also up there in that regard.)
The fact that Messi has won the World Cup now just finally puts to rest the argument that Maradona, Pele, Zidane, Ronaldo Nazario etc. were better than Messi just because they won World Cups and he hadn’t. But I don’t think this was ever a valid argument to begin with, as it totally disregards everything that a player did (or didn’t do) outside of those few matches.
As Jorge Valdano quite succinctly put it: “Messi is Maradona every day”.
Original post by StarLinyx
[*]
More players could win the Ballan d'Or 20-25 years ago than today. Zidane, Figo, Rivaldo, Ronaldo, Maldini, Cantona, Giggs, Klinsmann, Mathaus, Sammer, Kohler, Del Piero, Vieri, Van Nistelrooy, Raul, Batistuta, Ronaldinho, Weir etc. etc.
More players could win the Ballan d'Or 20-25 years ago than today. Zidane, Figo, Rivaldo, Ronaldo, Maldini, Cantona, Giggs, Klinsmann, Mathaus, Sammer, Kohler, Del Piero, Vieri, Van Nistelrooy, Raul, Batistuta, Ronaldinho, Weir etc. etc.
[*]
Just means the field was closer then? There are plenty of quality players at the moment but in recent years, Messi/Ronaldo were always either a step ahead, winning more club honours or the media love in for La Liga got them more awards.
Original post by Zürich
[*]
[*]Frankly the love in for Messi has left me feeling sick. It's not his world cup but Argentina
Wonderful player but if you want to compare him to Ronaldo then compare him to Ronaldo at age 35. When he was winning triple champions leagues and still absolutely dominating at the highest level. Ronaldo brings the abuse on himself with his arrogance but if I am honest, if its 90ty minute in a big knock out tie then I take Ronaldo every single time.
But Messi will go down as the best ever. That the media are so up gos arse is not his doing. But it is tiresome
[*]Frankly the love in for Messi has left me feeling sick. It's not his world cup but Argentina
Wonderful player but if you want to compare him to Ronaldo then compare him to Ronaldo at age 35. When he was winning triple champions leagues and still absolutely dominating at the highest level. Ronaldo brings the abuse on himself with his arrogance but if I am honest, if its 90ty minute in a big knock out tie then I take Ronaldo every single time.
But Messi will go down as the best ever. That the media are so up gos arse is not his doing. But it is tiresome
[*][*]Funnily if you ask the Argentina squad and manager, they will probably say it was for Messi / only because of Messi that they believed. Perhaps only the shithouse that is Emiliano Martínez would say otherwise
Sure but if you also compare them in their younger days (like for like age-wise), Messi was outperforming Ronaldo as a teen/early 20s while Ronaldo was at Sporting Lisbon/early couple of seasons at Man Utd - still being soft / on the floor.
The latter point will just be preference in style and tactics. For me, both players are brilliant and have achieved what is unlikely to be matched for some time but Ronaldo was always the blunter tool to achieve the same goal. Easier to see the impact / easier to show the highlights. Who doesn't love a towering header or a smashed goal from 30 yards. But hey, I wouldn't be the only one to describe Ronaldo as a tool
Original post by Zürich
[*][*]
[*]Ronaldo was scoring a goal a game in a poor Real side
Messi had iniesta, xavi etc and a team built around him
Don't get me wrong, I think Messi is the better player too but I find it quite abnormal how many soyboys get so passionate about it. He wasn't that much better than Ronaldo, at all
[*]Ronaldo was scoring a goal a game in a poor Real side
Messi had iniesta, xavi etc and a team built around him
Don't get me wrong, I think Messi is the better player too but I find it quite abnormal how many soyboys get so passionate about it. He wasn't that much better than Ronaldo, at all
[*][*][*]
The internet/social media was invested to argue about pointless things to the death! And then some. It's completely binary (you either pick one or the other) and its clouded by the fact the sport is actually a team game (which we all seem to forget).
Original post by Driving_Mad
Apparently during the entire World Cup Messi was the best player which is fair. Mbappe is 23 and 12 years younger than Messi (about to turn 24).
Why, is he your father ?
He’ll be the best player of the current generation but probably won’t surpass or reach the greatness of Ronaldo or Messi. He needs to leave PSG first, even though winning the Champions League with them would be great for his legacy.
Did you watch Pele play to rank him as the GOAT? Not hating by the way but I don’t understand how people can rate players they have never watched play because they are too young or weren’t allowed to watch games beyond a certain time.
Ronaldo is 2 years older than Messi. He was one of the top scorers in an average Man United team at the age of 36/37. He wasn’t fit for the tournament because he has hardly played for Man United. I’m pretty sure Messi didn’t even score double figure goals last season for PSG.
One of the best posts I have read here for a long time. Ronaldo always delivered in the most crucial moments throughout his career. Especially in the Champions League during his peak.
I think most of these posters missed these games because they had to go to bed because I don’t know why they are ignoring this.
Portugal struggled to produce any top players for about 20 years until Ronaldo arose. Remember he is the most clutch player of all time, like his hat trick against Spain in the World Cup 2018.
Were you an accountant in your previous occultation ? Stats don’t tell half the story.
There will be 100 more Messi’s in our lifetime, but never 1 more Ronaldo.
Messi has been fortunate to play in star-studded teams dominating the ball in Barcelona and PSG. He wouldn’t have done what Ronaldo did at Man United at the age of 36/37 in the Premier League at an average team with Fred and Mctominay as midfielders.
The Real Madrid team Ronaldo played in was definitely worse than Messi’s Barcelona. Kaka only spent a few years there and was a disappointment. Alonso was average and lost his place to a young Casemiro. Rodriguez and Di Maria were decent players. Modric and Kronos were good but can’t be compared to Xavi and Iniesta.
Messi has went missing on most big occasions apart from the 2022 World Cup. For example against Bayern Munich in the Champions League a few years ago, Liverpool in 2019, Roma in 2018, etc. There’s a reason why Messi has less Champions League than Ronaldo in 3 seasons than Messi has won during his entire career.
Why, is he your father ?
He’ll be the best player of the current generation but probably won’t surpass or reach the greatness of Ronaldo or Messi. He needs to leave PSG first, even though winning the Champions League with them would be great for his legacy.
Did you watch Pele play to rank him as the GOAT? Not hating by the way but I don’t understand how people can rate players they have never watched play because they are too young or weren’t allowed to watch games beyond a certain time.
Ronaldo is 2 years older than Messi. He was one of the top scorers in an average Man United team at the age of 36/37. He wasn’t fit for the tournament because he has hardly played for Man United. I’m pretty sure Messi didn’t even score double figure goals last season for PSG.
One of the best posts I have read here for a long time. Ronaldo always delivered in the most crucial moments throughout his career. Especially in the Champions League during his peak.
I think most of these posters missed these games because they had to go to bed because I don’t know why they are ignoring this.
Portugal struggled to produce any top players for about 20 years until Ronaldo arose. Remember he is the most clutch player of all time, like his hat trick against Spain in the World Cup 2018.
Were you an accountant in your previous occultation ? Stats don’t tell half the story.
There will be 100 more Messi’s in our lifetime, but never 1 more Ronaldo.
Messi has been fortunate to play in star-studded teams dominating the ball in Barcelona and PSG. He wouldn’t have done what Ronaldo did at Man United at the age of 36/37 in the Premier League at an average team with Fred and Mctominay as midfielders.
The Real Madrid team Ronaldo played in was definitely worse than Messi’s Barcelona. Kaka only spent a few years there and was a disappointment. Alonso was average and lost his place to a young Casemiro. Rodriguez and Di Maria were decent players. Modric and Kronos were good but can’t be compared to Xavi and Iniesta.
Messi has went missing on most big occasions apart from the 2022 World Cup. For example against Bayern Munich in the Champions League a few years ago, Liverpool in 2019, Roma in 2018, etc. There’s a reason why Messi has less Champions League than Ronaldo in 3 seasons than Messi has won during his entire career.
No need for that mate we've seen him play since we were kids its a nice fairytale ending to his career
Original post by Zürich
So could Ronaldo
And bullet headers from corners
Sssssuuuuuiiiii
And bullet headers from corners
Sssssuuuuuiiiii
I am a good deal older than than a lot of TSR students, and I saw football throughout the 90s, 00s, 10s and today. From my experience, I would say the 90s was the golden era for football talent Worldwide, followed by the 00s. The number of world class players seems to have declined a lot each decade since, although we still see a lot of good players. I actually think the likes of Zidane, Raul, Figo, Ronaldo (Brazil), Ronaldinho and Rivaldo were better players than Ronaldo (Portugal), even if Ronaldo was a better goal scorer. They were just more mesmerising in the big games, and most of them were better team players.
(edited 1 year ago)
Original post by Zerforax
[*]
Just means the field was closer then? There are plenty of quality players at the moment but in recent years, Messi/Ronaldo were always either a step ahead, winning more club honours or the media love in for La Liga got them more awards.
Just means the field was closer then? There are plenty of quality players at the moment but in recent years, Messi/Ronaldo were always either a step ahead, winning more club honours or the media love in for La Liga got them more awards.
[*]
I don't think Messi and Ronaldo would have won as many trophies as they did if they played in the 90s and early 00s, when standards in Europe were higher. Of the two, Messi is the one who I feared the most, like Rivaldo and Ronaldinho before him. I saw the Champions League semi-final against United in 2008 when United won, but Messi was the best player in both games by far, and he wasn't even at his best at that age.
Original post by WeWillAllSucceed
he always had a super team. So No. If he ever does it in a completely new league with an average team then he will be the goat.
Winning a world cup with 5 penalties does not make you the undisputed goat. Especially since he wasn't even the main reason Argentina won, it was Martinez he saved them from Netherlands and France
Winning a world cup with 5 penalties does not make you the undisputed goat. Especially since he wasn't even the main reason Argentina won, it was Martinez he saved them from Netherlands and France
Ffs what is up with you guys?
Mesi basically had the most goals, assists, chances created, key passes, ball carries into final third, most MOTM.
All due respect to Martinez, the 2 goals he conceded vs Netherlands were absolutely shambolic. You are just hating if you don't agree that Messi was the most instrumental in that victory.
Original post by WeWillAllSucceed
he always had a super team. So No. If he ever does it in a completely new league with an average team then he will be the goat.
Winning a world cup with 5 penalties does not make you the undisputed goat. Especially since he wasn't even the main reason Argentina won, it was Martinez he saved them from Netherlands and France
Winning a world cup with 5 penalties does not make you the undisputed goat. Especially since he wasn't even the main reason Argentina won, it was Martinez he saved them from Netherlands and France
He definitely had a super team in 2019,2020,2021. The same barca that were 8th u til xavi saved them
Original post by Zürich
Oh no Roy Keane was not the level I am talking about. Try Graham Souness.
So maradonna was competing in a different arena against lions and tigers. Messi is just against kittens
So maradonna was competing in a different arena against lions and tigers. Messi is just against kittens
What a huge L take. Messi regularly destroyed the best squads in europe and la liga.
Original post by Zürich
Ronaldo was scoring a goal a game in a poor Real side
Messi had iniesta, xavi etc and a team built around him
Don't get me wrong, I think Messi is the better player too but I find it quite abnormal how many soyboys get so passionate about it. He wasn't that much better than Ronaldo, at all
Messi had iniesta, xavi etc and a team built around him
Don't get me wrong, I think Messi is the better player too but I find it quite abnormal how many soyboys get so passionate about it. He wasn't that much better than Ronaldo, at all
Poor real side? These guys don't watch football.
Okay, lets talk about 2016-2018, when Ronaldo had a better squad.
Explain why messi had more goals, assists, MOTM, chances created.
Original post by Zürich
[*]Frankly the love in for Messi has left me feeling sick. It's not his world cup but Argentina
By that logic the UCL aren't ronaldo's either? They belong to madrid? So should we on,y use individual awards and stats to compare the two? Cause if we do, messi comes at the top.
Wonderful player but if you want to compare him to Ronaldo then compare him to Ronaldo at age 35. When he was winning triple champions leagues and still absolutely dominating at the highest level. Ronaldo brings the abuse on himself with his arrogance but if I am honest, if its 90ty minute in a big knock out tie then I take Ronaldo every single time.
But Messi will go down as the best ever. That the media are so up gos arse is not his doing. But it is tiresome
By that logic the UCL aren't ronaldo's either? They belong to madrid? So should we on,y use individual awards and stats to compare the two? Cause if we do, messi comes at the top.
Wonderful player but if you want to compare him to Ronaldo then compare him to Ronaldo at age 35. When he was winning triple champions leagues and still absolutely dominating at the highest level. Ronaldo brings the abuse on himself with his arrogance but if I am honest, if its 90ty minute in a big knock out tie then I take Ronaldo every single time.
But Messi will go down as the best ever. That the media are so up gos arse is not his doing. But it is tiresome
[*]By that logic the UCL aren't ronaldo's either? They belong to madrid? So should we on,y use individual awards and stats to compare the two? Cause if we do, messi comes at the top.Ronaldo won a 3 peat at 35? Your ball knowledge is evident from such stupid statements. Ronaldo was in juventus at 35, and got eliminated by Lyon in the UCL.
And just because a player is more clutch you can't say they are better. Drogba is more clutch than henry. Is he better?The tears people shed on this forum is crazy. ESPN snucks upto Maradona and Pele and nobody bats an eye. Media praises messi, and suddenly they become tiresome. Have some Shame, messi is by far the greatest of this generation. Over the course of this debate, not once did u use any attribute apart from goalscoring. Just shows your ball knowledge.
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