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GOGSoc the Third

I do agree with Athena's comments on having two threads. I joined this thread a while back as a place to talk about our shared experiences, not have (mostly) aggressive debates. Discussion is fine, but it so often gets personal that it's just not enjoyable for the rest of us. There are many places for those discussions to take place on TSR already.

(And I'd like to point out that I'm not just picking out Adorno here - there are quite a few who do this.)

Reply 9761

shiny

12

You're all bitches so :tongue:

Reply 9762

Adorno

1

Original post by Feefifofum

I do agree with Athena's comments on having two threads. I joined this thread a while back as a place to talk about our shared experiences, not have (mostly) aggressive debates. Discussion is fine, but it so often gets personal that it's just not enjoyable for the rest of us. There are many places for those discussions to take place on TSR already.

I think part of the problem stems from what many people see as 'the two cultures' that exist ibetween science and the arts and humanities (it's less problematic for social scientists because they have certain theoritical foundations which tend more towards "scientific" analysis and you can flog a lot of it as policy-orientated research) and so scientists, in particular, see much of what arts and humanities students do as self-indulgent twaddle. For me arts and humanities offer a great deal in the way of emancipatory material - I mean my research is about how people coped and responded to the depression of the 1920s and 1930s so it's quite topical and pertinent - but it gets readily dismissed by those who would utilise the slam down of, say, "I solve cancer" or somesuch and I think we've become increasingly polarised in this thread between the two traditions. The "golden age" of GOGSoc was such because most of the members were arts, humanities, and social science students, with the exception of people like Chemist Boy who are so widely read as to not to make a difference in terms of disciplinary competence. So Alasdair and I could be found talking about, say, the Spanish Civil War amidst conversation about tea and biscuits! But the relative calm that existed a couple of years ago has vanished and the thread is more readily dominated by scientists who have less time for the political or historical.

I guess it's about how people relax and also about the likelihood of whether we'd get on in real life.

Reply 9763

shiny

12

I'm not widely read :biggrin:

Reply 9764

MrShifty

9

Original post by Adorno

...

I think you know full well that your 'stance' consists of so much more than your views.

What was the message you sent shortly after I initially hauled you up on the "think about... eh" comment?

"Next time think about who you're having a go at"

Pause for a moment to consider the sheer arrogance in that statement, the obnoxious, if tacit, assumption that you're the only person on here who's experienced anything close to hardship or personal tragedy, and the erroneous belief that this some how elevates you above all others and exempts you from the same kind of treatment you are only too eager to dish out to others.

Had I thought you merely spoke out of conviction or forthrightness I wouldn't have gone on to comment so fully, but that's not the case. Instead, there is an unsavoury taint there, not just in the belief in your own exceptionalism, but the distasteful way you revel in it and are so eager to use this perception of yourself and your circumstances to lazily hector others to the point where it's difficult to tell which you are more interested in: putting forth a sincere expression of your beliefs, or merely to indulge in the sordid, selfish thrill of moral indignation itself.

And that's in part why I continue to stand by my criticism of you. You can imagine all you want that this is all part of some conspiracy to turn you into a "quiet, pliant, conservative establishment figure", but it's not. If it wasn't already clear from what I've written previously, I don't even view you as being particularly anti-establishment a figure (and I'm willing to bet I'm not alone in this amongst anyone under the age of sixty), quite the contrary in fact. As flattering as it is to view all criticism through the diffusing lens of class strife, sometimes it really is all about you as an individual.

I don't intend to relate my own experiences here, not least because to do so would be to demean both them and your own in some detestable online pissing contest of misery past and present, and I believe we've both faffed up this thread enough as it is. You're welcome to take this further in PM away from the gallery, but as far as I'm concerned this is the end of it in this particular arena.

Reply 9765

Milady de Winter

On a completely different topic from the last dozen posts...

I hate my upstairs neighbours. They are noisy. Right now I can hear them cheering each other on over some ******* stupid XBox game, and they have been playing bad techno music through our ceiling all evening. ********

My passive aggressive notes through their letterbox are clearly insufficient. Even though they *promised* to be more considerate after the last one I sent :frown:

Reply 9766

shiny

12

Go to Boots and get a silicon gel ear plugs. Blocks noise and very comfortable.

Reply 9767

musicbloke

17

Why does TSR look weird?

Also, I do think the obsession with working-classness doesn't help. I mean there is a very significant trend in arts and humanities academia with people who have spent many years working on the redemption of working class culture, but ultimately their understanding comes from a split with the communist party in 1956 (and therefore a split with the CP's line on art/life/pre-revolutionary spirit etc.), a total lack of knowledge of German neo-Marxism, and a politics that ends up not really saying very much. I say this not as a denigration of the working classes, but rather to re-enliven the notion that this very middle-class profession in which we are engaged can be properly radical without being forced to renounce ourselves for not being working class enough, or demanding that there is value in some invented working class authenticity.

I think the much better Marxist argument for funding the arts and humanities is that these are the bits of the education system that can actively contribute to the transformation of society, whilst many other subjects simply make the reproduction of the status quo more efficient.

MB

Reply 9768

evantej

18

Original post by musicbloke

[…] Also, I do think the obsession with working-classness doesn't help. I mean there is a very significant trend in arts and humanities academia with people who have spent many years working on the redemption of working class culture, but ultimately their understanding comes from a split with the communist party in 1956 (and therefore a split with the CP's line on art/life/pre-revolutionary spirit etc.), a total lack of knowledge of German neo-Marxism, and a politics that ends up not really saying very much. I say this not as a denigration of the working classes, but rather to re-enliven the notion that this very middle-class profession in which we are engaged can be properly radical without being forced to renounce ourselves for not being working class enough, or demanding that there is value in some invented working class authenticity. […]

Most of what you wrote is completely irrelevant to the discussion, which was about (working-class) access to higher education, and the arts and humanities in particular, not about working-class culture itself or 'some invented working class authenticity'; read the_alba's comment from the previous page, and see how Adorno's background was held against him, because he aspired to work in academia.

In addition, the fact that you talk about academic/middle-class radicalism shows you have completely missed the point; the discussion was about how funding cuts will affect higher education - both from the point of those who seek to enter it as a profession, and those who are employed by it in non-academic positions. You do not seem to realise that, while these cuts will make the situation worse for everyone involved in the sector, including those in the sciences, it was already harder for those coming from a working-class backgrounds to enter the sector in an academic position, especially in the arts and humanities, because of financial reasons. It is exactly the same in all 'middle-class professions'. You do not seem to realise that the only reason they are middle class professions is because it is harder for working-class to enter into them (you can bleat all day long about German neo-Marxism and such like, but George Orwell's point seems the most appropriate: part of the problem is that the middle classes do not realise that they should be working with the lower classes rather than against them); no working-class student can afford to self-fund doctoral work; no working-class journalist can afford to live and work in London to take on unpaid work experience etc., etc..

Sorry to labour the point, but I felt that it had to be made.

(edited 13 years ago)

Reply 9769

Craghyrax

17

Does anybody have access to:

"Moving to Secondary School: On the Role of Affective Expectations in a Tracking School System"
European Educational Research Journal, Volume 8 Number 3 2009

and/or

'I want an education': two case studies of working-class ambition and ambivalence in further and higher education, Morrison, Research in Post-Compulsory Education, Volume 15, Issue 1 March 2010 , pages 67 - 80
?
They're both really relevant to my research :sad:

(edited 13 years ago)

Reply 9770

Adorno

1

Original post by Craghyrax

Does anybody have access to:

"Moving to Secondary School: On the Role of Affective Expectations in a Tracking School System"
European Educational Research Journal, Volume 8 Number 3 2009

and/or

'I want an education': two case studies of working-class ambition and ambivalence in further and higher education, Morrison, Research in Post-Compulsory Education, Volume 15, Issue 1 March 2010 , pages 67 - 80
?
They're both really relevant to my research :sad:

I can access both but only on campus. Can certainly get them for you but it'd have to be snail mail :frown:

(edited 13 years ago)

Reply 9771

Craghyrax

17

Original post by Adorno

I can access both but only on campus. Can certainly get them for you but it'd have to be snail mail :frown:

Thanks for letting me know :smile:

I'll bear that in mind in case I'm desperate, and reimburse you if it comes to that!

Finding hard copies of journals is hard here. The ejournals are centralised, but we have the UL and then department and college libraries seperately and stuff doesn't always reliably show up in catalogues.

Reply 9772

Craghyrax

17

Original post by Athena

If you need them that much, you can ask the UL/your department library to buy them in. I ask for journal articles from my institute's library about once a month.

I pretty much never know whether I need something enough until I've read it, but yes, I do make requests from libraries occasionally :smile:

Reply 9773

Craghyrax

17

Two of the mods could access the articles, so I'm sorted now :king1:

Reply 9774

Adorno

1

Original post by Craghyrax

Two of the mods could access the articles, so I'm sorted now :king1:

Hah, I am twp today. Apparently I could access the second one. You know how routledge have two sites: the taylor & francis one and the ingentaconnect one. Well when I went onto the former I found the journal with access. Doh. Erm, but if you've not read it alreay:

Greenbank, Paul(2009) 'Re-evaluating the role of social capital in the career decision-making behaviour
of working-class students', Research in Post-Compulsory Education, 14: 2, 157 — 170

Is very, very illuminating.

Reply 9775