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Student/Teacher Ratio...Classics?

Hello!

I'm embarrassingly new to this, and don't really know how these message threads work, so please forgive me if I make some huge faux pas!

Anyway, my main question is about the number of Undergrad classes that are actually taught by professors and not students/teaching assistants. I understand that it differs from school to school, so I'm mainly just curious about the Mediaeval History, English, and Classics departments, but any information would be nice!

In other words: Do professors teach the majority of the classes, or are the classes usually taught by some postgrad student/T.A.?

I think another thing I'm worried about is the professor accessibility. I've gone to private school my whole life, so I am incredibly used to small class sizes of about 8-15 kids and being on friendly terms with my teachers (i.e. being invited over to their house for dinner, having lunch together at the cafe, or even just staying after class to have a nice chat)... Are the teachers accessible at St. As? I mean, it is a large school so I'm not expecting to be bosom-buddies with any one professor, but I've always enjoyed the student-teacher relationships I've been able to build/keep. Are those sorts of relationships common?

Thank you very much for reading this!

Reply 1

Stella476

Thank you for asking this question! I need to know this as well, but keep forgetting to post it!

Sorry I don't know the answer, though!

Reply 2

Sambo2

10

duckydaisies

Hello!

I'm embarrassingly new to this, and don't really know how these message threads work, so please forgive me if I make some huge faux pas!

Anyway, my main question is about the number of Undergrad classes that are actually taught by professors and not students/teaching assistants. I understand that it differs from school to school, so I'm mainly just curious about the Mediaeval History, English, and Classics departments, but any information would be nice!

In other words: Do professors teach the majority of the classes, or are the classes usually taught by some postgrad student/T.A.?

I think another thing I'm worried about is the professor accessibility. I've gone to private school my whole life, so I am incredibly used to small class sizes of about 8-15 kids and being on friendly terms with my teachers (i.e. being invited over to their house for dinner, having lunch together at the cafe, or even just staying after class to have a nice chat)... Are the teachers accessible at St. As? I mean, it is a large school so I'm not expecting to be bosom-buddies with any one professor, but I've always enjoyed the student-teacher relationships I've been able to build/keep. Are those sorts of relationships common?

Thank you very much for reading this!

I'm not a historian - but I can answer some of your questions I think.. In my experience if I email a proffessor with a question I will get an answer the same day and if I go to their office they are very happy to see me.. - I'm geussing by proffessor you mean that in the american sense - and so I think you mean lecturers (although I do get taught by real prof's too..) - all lectures in my school are taught by lecturers not postgrads and I think this is pretty much the universal picture though I don't know about arts tutorials since our tutorials are very different.

St Andrews is not a large uni at all - it is infact very small and so I know quite a few of my lecturers by their first name and there is a very good student-teacher relationship but as I say this is in medicine which I realise is very different to arts faculty so I don't know how well this translates...

Reply 3

Holly Unsightly

2

For Classics (beginners level languages at least), the classes are pretty small (for Greek I think it was around 20 last semester, dropped to 16ish this semester; Latin was about the same last semester, but now only 12 or so of us) and meet regularly, so you do get to know the teacher very well. I think it helps that we're in a more informal classroom setting rather than a lecture hall, and my teachers is always accessible in his office and often hangs around chatting after a class!

I take Classical Studies as well, and the classes are much much larger, I think I heard someone say about 150 students? Obviously there's less scope for getting to know the lecturer in these cases, but I've hung back a few times to ask questions and they've all been very cooperative, likewise when I've emailed I've always had quick responses.

The only time I've ever been taught by a postgrad was for tutorials last semester, and it wasn't a problem at all!

Reply 4

sophie_c

10

I did Latin in first year, I'd say there about 15 in a class to one teacher. We had half the class time taught by a postgrad, and the other half by a professor.. they were both great! :smile:

I guess for classical studies, it'll be taught in a more lecture-like scenario, so the classes of course will be larger, but in my experience (in Biology where we have large class sizes) if you need any help, the lecturers are always ready to help, and would generally get an email back on the day. Also it's likely you'll have tutorials where you'll be in a smaller group of people and get to know a certain professor or postgrad student better, and therefore they will be your first port of call if you have any qus/problems with the module.

:smile:

Reply 5

whatsdown

I check out these forums occasionally but don't post. I go to St Andrews and wanted to respond to your query. I went to a well-respected private high school in the US, as it seems you do, and I was able to forge very strong relationships with my teachers. At St Andrews it is not the same at all. Below are my experiences; people on this forum might disagree with me, but it might help to know my perceptions. I don't take classics, but I take Modern History and English, and will comment on those.

All the courses that I have taken (Int. Relations, Mod. History, English, etc) are lecture based. I doubt classics would be. In my opinion focusing on learning through lectures is completely inappropriate, especially for literature based classes, but that's another issue.

Lectures are 3 times per week and there is a one hour tutorial, usually with between 7-15 people in it. My lectures are usually about 200-300 people. In the six modules, or classes in the U.S., (3 per semester) I've taken or am participating in, so far, the lecturers have all been professors, I think, while half of my tutorials have been led by phD students). However, lecturers switch off every week or two, so you won't really establish a connection with any of them. Additionally, one hour a week with your tutor won't really be enough to establish much of a connection. Here, many teachers don't have office hours, they have AN office hour. My experience has been that they want to be minimally involved with their students. I am quite good at reaching out to my teachers and had strong relationships with them in high school, but it is definitely not the same here. You will find much stronger student-faculty relationship in a U.S. college or university than you will here. In fact, it is one of the reasons I am transferring back to the U.S.

Personally, I have been extremely disappointed with the teaching. As I am sure you know, as a student at a small, US private high school, learning through discussion is much more productive and interesting than being lectured at. If you enjoyed your high school experience and want something similar in terms of teaching style or community, I can't recommend coming here.

If you want to talk about this more, feel free to respond to my post or send me a message.

Reply 6

duracell

10

whatsdown

I went to a well-respected private high school in the US, as it seems you do, and I was able to forge very strong relationships with my teachers. At St Andrews it is not the same at all.

Of course there is going to be a difference between the teaching at your HIGH SCHOOL and teaching at a UNIVERSITY.

My experience has been that they want to be minimally involved with their students. I am quite good at reaching out to my teachers and had strong relationships with them in high school, but it is definitely not the same here.

Unlike in high school, the lecturers and professors are not in the University solely to teach us. Most of their time is taken up with their own research, and some of them choose to lecture on top of that.

Personally, I have been extremely disappointed with the teaching. As I am sure you know, as a student at a small, US private high school, learning through discussion is much more productive and interesting than being lectured at. If you enjoyed your high school experience and want something similar in terms of teaching style or community, I can't recommend coming here.

Discussions? That's what your tutorials are for. And nothing is stopping you from meeting up with friends to discuss things you've read outside of the lectures, because as I'm sure you're well aware, lectures only form the framework of your learning.

One of my best friends is a Classics student, and she's never had a problem with 'establishing a connection' with lecturers etc. Maybe you feel face-to-face contact is better, but as mentioned previously, professors are busy people, and anyway - that's what email is for!

Also there is no department that will teach literature solely through lectures.

Reply 7

whatsdown

duracell

Of course there is going to be a difference between the teaching at your HIGH SCHOOL and teaching at a UNIVERSITY.

Unlike in high school, the lecturers and professors are not in the University solely to teach us. Most of their time is taken up with their own research, and some of them choose to lecture on top of that.

Discussions? That's what your tutorials are for. And nothing is stopping you from meeting up with friends to discuss things you've read outside of the lectures, because as I'm sure you're well aware, lectures only form the framework of your learning.

One of my best friends is a Classics student, and she's never had a problem with 'establishing a connection' with lecturers etc. Maybe you feel face-to-face contact is better, but as mentioned previously, professors are busy people, and anyway - that's what email is for!

Also there is no department that will teach literature solely through lectures.

----
I didn't say literature based classes were taught only through lecture but that "focusing on learning through lectures is completely inappropriate, especially for literature based classes, but that's another issue." And you must agree that 75% lecture, 25% tutorial is a "focus" on learning through lecture.

Of course you can "establish a connection with lecturers", but it isn't going to be the same as being in the same small class with the same teacher 3/4 days a week like you'd find at many colleges/universities in the U.S.

In my experience, people from tutorial groups don't "meet up" unless they already know each other, so this limits "discussion" as you suggest.

Maybe "lecturers and professors are not in the University solely to teach us", but we are certainly at the University to learn from them. Therefore, we should derive a great deal of benefit from out time in their class.

My belief is that an education is more than just the transmission of information. It's about a dialogue, about using, applying, discussing, and analyzing information, especially in the humanities. The objection I have with predominantly lecture based learning (which is how this university operates -- not sure about the Classics department, though) is it is of no unique, intrinsic value. Let me clarify -- I could go on to iTunes' University section, or JSTOR or the library and derive the same benefit I get from lectures. That isn't what I pay $35,000 a year for. If I wanted access to the "facilities", poor as they are here, and lecture-derived information, I could get a library card, a JSTOR subscription, and an iTunes account. In fact, you'd be better off going on iTunes. At least there they have lectures from top class professors at Stanford, Oxford, etc. The majority of what's offered here, which is raw information conveyed through the internet, can be found for free. Would you something from somebody if you could get the same thing for free?

The real value from education is the (academic) experiences you can't have anywhere else. This means the discussions, the studying with friends, the dialogue, debate, etc. You aren't going to find this in a library, on the internet, or, from my experience, at St Andrews. If you want it, go to a US college or university (not a big state school though). Of course in the US it will vary from class to class, subject to subject, and school to school, but most of my friends back home report being in smaller, more seminar style classes than I am in.

And please, before you argue the unique social experiences you can have here, you can hang out in any major city and do much better. The only other counter-argument I can think of is that you will get feedback on your work. My question is, if this is all you're going for, is it worth it? Additionally, the feedback I've received hasn't been very comprehensive. I wouldn't pay 35,000 a year for it.

To go back to the original question, I don't think you will find the extremely strong, personal student-teacher relationships you had in high school. I've only been here for a year, but that is my impression. The teachers may be ostensibly "accessible" as the poster above me may argue, but whether they encourage you to seek them out and whether they welcome discussion is a different issue entirely. In fact, that the poster says, "that's what email is for!" just proves that these "relationships" are nothing more than e-questioning because you don't have the chance to ask the questions in class. I don't think you'll be doing much more than asking the lecturer a question -- you certainly won't become facebook friends then have dinner together. As the poster above agrees, their is very little "face-to-face" time. Maybe that poster hasn't gone to a small school with small seminar classes and doesn't realize the value of such interaction, as I do, and it seems you do. It's nearly impossible to form any sort of relationship in an hour a week of tutorials and with a lecturer whom you do not actually talk to and to whom you are merely a face in a crowd.

Reply 8

Sorry...Alright...Well...

9

duckydaisies

Hello!

I'm embarrassingly new to this, and don't really know how these message threads work, so please forgive me if I make some huge faux pas!

Anyway, my main question is about the number of Undergrad classes that are actually taught by professors and not students/teaching assistants. I understand that it differs from school to school, so I'm mainly just curious about the Mediaeval History, English, and Classics departments, but any information would be nice!

In other words: Do professors teach the majority of the classes, or are the classes usually taught by some postgrad student/T.A.?

I think another thing I'm worried about is the professor accessibility. I've gone to private school my whole life, so I am incredibly used to small class sizes of about 8-15 kids and being on friendly terms with my teachers (i.e. being invited over to their house for dinner, having lunch together at the cafe, or even just staying after class to have a nice chat)... Are the teachers accessible at St. As? I mean, it is a large school so I'm not expecting to be bosom-buddies with any one professor, but I've always enjoyed the student-teacher relationships I've been able to build/keep. Are those sorts of relationships common?

Thank you very much for reading this!

I think the point of university, not St. Andrews in particular, is not about relationships. I personally feel it is better to be taken out of your comfort zone and have the opportunity to be independent. When you describe US colleges, I picture myself being 'spoon-fed' my education - something I hoped to be rid of in secondary school - whereas I think the ability to do your own research is important.

So, in essence, I feel you shouldn't pick a university based on the fact that you can 'forge relationships' with your lecturers (especially as some modules will have hundreds of people studying alongside you in the lecture theatre.) That shouldn't be what university is about.

I am a 1st year Classics student at St Andrews and I must say that I am enjoying the course immensely. The Classics department is a smaller department, so I would say that it is probably easier to connect with lecturers and tutors. Languages-wise, I am a beginner in the languages, and the classes were not that big and I am not a 'face in the crowd' as my lecturer knows me; I can go and ask him anything and there is the chance to ask questions. In the other modules, like Ancient History or Classical Studies, the class sizes are bigger, especially as people from different faculties take the modules too. My lecturers from these modules do recognise me and the chance to speak to them after the lecture is there.

Tutorial-wise, the class sizes are small and you can establish a relationship with your tutor. (The Classics department is great!) One of my tutors is amazing and our tutorial group discussions are fantastic.

From my point of view, St. Andrews works perfectly well in its system and is an amazing university. The lack of these close relationships would prepare you for the real world, where the ability to work on your own is paramount. My advice to you would be to try and step out of your comfort zone. But if you did want these relationships with lecturers, I think they will not be easily established in first year. In your honours years, class sizes will probably be a lot smaller as people start to specialise more.

Hope this makes sense and helps you in some way. Feel free to ask any other questions about Classics in St Andrews.

Reply 9

la_banane_verte

16

whatsdown

Lectures are 3 times per week and there is a one hour tutorial, usually with between 7-15 people in it. My lectures are usually about 200-300 people. In the six modules, or classes in the U.S., (3 per semester) I've taken or am participating in, so far, the lecturers have all been professors, I think, while half of my tutorials have been led by phD students). However, lecturers switch off every week or two, so you won't really establish a connection with any of them. Additionally, one hour a week with your tutor won't really be enough to establish much of a connection. Here, many teachers don't have office hours, they have AN office hour. My experience has been that they want to be minimally involved with their students. I am quite good at reaching out to my teachers and had strong relationships with them in high school, but it is definitely not the same here. You will find much stronger student-faculty relationship in a U.S. college or university than you will here. In fact, it is one of the reasons I am transferring back to the U.S.

Personally, I have been extremely disappointed with the teaching. As I am sure you know, as a student at a small, US private high school, learning through discussion is much more productive and interesting than being lectured at. If you enjoyed your high school experience and want something similar in terms of teaching style or community, I can't recommend coming here.

~~Are you currently in honours or subhonours?~~ Ok, you've only been here a year - first year classes tend to be the most impersonal because of the size due to the number of people taking it as a "filler" module. I have found that once you're in honours, you get to know the lecturers/staff much better, as you have smaller classes, and you tend to get one lecturer for most (if not all) of the module, as it will be something to do with their specialist interest. You will also have a supervisor for projects/dissertations who you will get to work closely with (if you choose to).

And to be fair, I wouldn't say "don't come to St Andrews" based on the things you've written here, I would say "don't come to any university in the UK", as you will find that the modules/lecturers/classes/tutorials are all run in much the same fashion, and the majority of UK unis are much bigger than St Andrews, hence will have even more students than 200/300 in a lecture.

Rereading some of the comments you've made, I think the phrase "At least there they have lectures from top class professors at Stanford, Oxford, etc" is quite insulting to the staff here. Just because someone is an academic at Stanford/Oxford it does not mean they are better than the academics here (the reverse implication is also true). The point "that's what email is for", I interpreted to mean you email the lecturer/tutor and ask to set up a meeting with them to discuss whatever the problem is, not that you ask them via email. Most staff are more than happy to do this, and it's more convienient for everyone involved. Office hours are much less convenient in my opinion - what happens if they hold their hours when you're busy etc etc. Much better to be able to set up an individual appointment.

Now I have no personal experience of literature based modules, but a friend who graduated last year studied English, and I believe that once you start honours modules, you will be learning through a mixture of tutorials and seminars as opposed to the huge lectures you have now.

My last point (I apologise, this post is somewhat unstructured, I just wrote down things as I thought of them) - you are very much expected to study outside of lectures/tutorials, and not be "forced" into doing the work by having organised class hours with a tutor present. University learning is more about being provided with the raw materials and then going off to understand it by yourself (with the staff there to help should you get stuck), not about being made to do the work by teacher.

Student/Teacher Ratio...Classics?

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