What they don't tell you when you apply for psychology
If you are considering studying psychology in a UK university I'd suggest you read this thread first.
- As you know, most people who apply to psychology want to become psychologists (clinical, forensic, occupational and counseling) - this represents the ambitions of 90%+ of the students I've met. To get into these careers you need to do a MSc/doctorate after your degree.
- To apply for most MScs/doctorates you need a 2:1 degree or above. If you don't get a 2:1 there's not much you can do.
- More worryingly, the acceptance rate into BPS accredited MScs/doctorates is very low - there are few accredited places available considering the HUGE number of psychology graduates universities are churning out every year. I just asked for the graduation figures of 2009 from my uni (Bath) and out of 134 students 3 got into post-grad courses recognized by the British Psychological Society (BPS). The majority were unemployed or working unrelated careers. So far, in my year nobody has been offered a BPS-accredited place.
TLDR: thousands of students apply for psychology wanting to become accredited psychologists. 3 years later they realize that they cannot get into the post-grad courses and are stuck with a 'worthless' degree.
Imagine medical students had to do a 3 year 'pre-medicine' course and then had to apply for a super-rare post-grad in order to progress. The majority of the graduates will not get into the post-grad and will end up with a pointless degree. That's basically what psychology is like.
By the way, the UK is one of the few places that do this. In many other European countries a Psychology degree is 6 years and (assuming you pass your exams) you come out of the degree as a qualified psychologist. Just like in medicine.
- As you know, most people who apply to psychology want to become psychologists (clinical, forensic, occupational and counseling) - this represents the ambitions of 90%+ of the students I've met. To get into these careers you need to do a MSc/doctorate after your degree.
- To apply for most MScs/doctorates you need a 2:1 degree or above. If you don't get a 2:1 there's not much you can do.
- More worryingly, the acceptance rate into BPS accredited MScs/doctorates is very low - there are few accredited places available considering the HUGE number of psychology graduates universities are churning out every year. I just asked for the graduation figures of 2009 from my uni (Bath) and out of 134 students 3 got into post-grad courses recognized by the British Psychological Society (BPS). The majority were unemployed or working unrelated careers. So far, in my year nobody has been offered a BPS-accredited place.
TLDR: thousands of students apply for psychology wanting to become accredited psychologists. 3 years later they realize that they cannot get into the post-grad courses and are stuck with a 'worthless' degree.
Imagine medical students had to do a 3 year 'pre-medicine' course and then had to apply for a super-rare post-grad in order to progress. The majority of the graduates will not get into the post-grad and will end up with a pointless degree. That's basically what psychology is like.
By the way, the UK is one of the few places that do this. In many other European countries a Psychology degree is 6 years and (assuming you pass your exams) you come out of the degree as a qualified psychologist. Just like in medicine.
(edited 12 years ago)
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thatsnumberwang
I had a heated discussion about this with my supervisor today.
As you know, most people who apply to psychology want to become psychologists (clinical, forensic, occupational and counseling are popular choices) - this represents the ambitions of 90% of the students on my psychology course. To get into these careers you need to do a MSc after your degree.
To apply for most MScs you need a 2:1 degree or above. If you don't get a 2:1 there's not much you can do. However some universities accept 2:2s in exceptional circumstances.
The actual acceptance rate into MScs is very low for two reasons. First, there are few accredited courses available considering the huge number of psychology graduates universities are churning out every year. Second, each course only accepts around 15-25 students so competition is fierce. I just asked for the graduation figures of 2009 from my uni (I go to a top 40 uni) and out of 134 students 3 got into MScs recognized by the British Psychological Society (BPS). The majority were unemployed or working unrelated careers. So far, in my year nobody has been offered a BPS-accredited place except for me (at London Met though).
In my opinion, a degree in psychology is pretty worthless if you can't even go on to become a psychologist or at least get a related job. I asked my supervisor why they don't make the graduate figures more publicly available. Maybe then people will realize that if they are not in a top-5 uni their chances of ever becoming a psychologist are slim. My supervisor said, and I quote:
"People should all have the chance to try."
Whilst I agree that students should be given the opportunity to do the degree and try, they should be more educated about the lack of opportunities following the degree if they can't get onto an MSc.
The situation is a bit like having medical students do a 3 year 'medicine' course and then having to apply for a super-rare post-grad in order to actually become a doctor. The majority of the graduates will not get into the post-grad and will end up with a worthless degree. That's basically what psychology is like.
As you know, most people who apply to psychology want to become psychologists (clinical, forensic, occupational and counseling are popular choices) - this represents the ambitions of 90% of the students on my psychology course. To get into these careers you need to do a MSc after your degree.
To apply for most MScs you need a 2:1 degree or above. If you don't get a 2:1 there's not much you can do. However some universities accept 2:2s in exceptional circumstances.
The actual acceptance rate into MScs is very low for two reasons. First, there are few accredited courses available considering the huge number of psychology graduates universities are churning out every year. Second, each course only accepts around 15-25 students so competition is fierce. I just asked for the graduation figures of 2009 from my uni (I go to a top 40 uni) and out of 134 students 3 got into MScs recognized by the British Psychological Society (BPS). The majority were unemployed or working unrelated careers. So far, in my year nobody has been offered a BPS-accredited place except for me (at London Met though).
In my opinion, a degree in psychology is pretty worthless if you can't even go on to become a psychologist or at least get a related job. I asked my supervisor why they don't make the graduate figures more publicly available. Maybe then people will realize that if they are not in a top-5 uni their chances of ever becoming a psychologist are slim. My supervisor said, and I quote:
"People should all have the chance to try."
Whilst I agree that students should be given the opportunity to do the degree and try, they should be more educated about the lack of opportunities following the degree if they can't get onto an MSc.
The situation is a bit like having medical students do a 3 year 'medicine' course and then having to apply for a super-rare post-grad in order to actually become a doctor. The majority of the graduates will not get into the post-grad and will end up with a worthless degree. That's basically what psychology is like.
All true, minus the bolded parts.
1. Most of those are doctorate courses, not MSc. Those that are MSc will soon be doctorates.
2. Top-5 things is bull ****. See: clinpsy and psyclick and observe that the majority of doctoral students are not from the top 5.
To be honest, if applicants do not realise the above before they apply, then they just haven't done their research and deserve the shock they're in for. Other than that, you haven't really posted anything that people don't know.
thatsnumberwang
I had a heated discussion about this with my supervisor today.
As you know, most people who apply to psychology want to become psychologists (clinical, forensic, occupational and counseling are popular choices) - this represents the ambitions of 90% of the students on my psychology course. To get into these careers you need to do a MSc after your degree.
To apply for most MScs you need a 2:1 degree or above. If you don't get a 2:1 there's not much you can do. However some universities accept 2:2s in exceptional circumstances.
The actual acceptance rate into MScs is very low for two reasons. First, there are few accredited courses available considering the huge number of psychology graduates universities are churning out every year. Second, each course only accepts around 15-25 students so competition is fierce. I just asked for the graduation figures of 2009 from my uni (I go to a top 40 uni) and out of 134 students 3 got into MScs recognized by the British Psychological Society (BPS). The majority were unemployed or working unrelated careers. So far, in my year nobody has been offered a BPS-accredited place except for me (at London Met though).
In my opinion, a degree in psychology is pretty worthless if you can't even go on to become a psychologist or at least get a related job. I asked my supervisor why they don't make the graduate figures more publicly available. Maybe then people will realize that if they are not in a top-5 uni their chances of ever becoming a psychologist are slim. My supervisor said, and I quote:
"People should all have the chance to try."
Whilst I agree that students should be given the opportunity to do the degree and try, they should be more educated about the lack of opportunities following the degree if they can't get onto an MSc.
The situation is a bit like having medical students do a 3 year 'medicine' course and then having to apply for a super-rare post-grad in order to actually become a doctor. The majority of the graduates will not get into the post-grad and will end up with a worthless degree. That's basically what psychology is like.
As you know, most people who apply to psychology want to become psychologists (clinical, forensic, occupational and counseling are popular choices) - this represents the ambitions of 90% of the students on my psychology course. To get into these careers you need to do a MSc after your degree.
To apply for most MScs you need a 2:1 degree or above. If you don't get a 2:1 there's not much you can do. However some universities accept 2:2s in exceptional circumstances.
The actual acceptance rate into MScs is very low for two reasons. First, there are few accredited courses available considering the huge number of psychology graduates universities are churning out every year. Second, each course only accepts around 15-25 students so competition is fierce. I just asked for the graduation figures of 2009 from my uni (I go to a top 40 uni) and out of 134 students 3 got into MScs recognized by the British Psychological Society (BPS). The majority were unemployed or working unrelated careers. So far, in my year nobody has been offered a BPS-accredited place except for me (at London Met though).
In my opinion, a degree in psychology is pretty worthless if you can't even go on to become a psychologist or at least get a related job. I asked my supervisor why they don't make the graduate figures more publicly available. Maybe then people will realize that if they are not in a top-5 uni their chances of ever becoming a psychologist are slim. My supervisor said, and I quote:
"People should all have the chance to try."
Whilst I agree that students should be given the opportunity to do the degree and try, they should be more educated about the lack of opportunities following the degree if they can't get onto an MSc.
The situation is a bit like having medical students do a 3 year 'medicine' course and then having to apply for a super-rare post-grad in order to actually become a doctor. The majority of the graduates will not get into the post-grad and will end up with a worthless degree. That's basically what psychology is like.
You don't need an MSc to become a Clinical or an Educational Psychologist. Work experience after graduating is what is most important to gain a place on the relevant 3 year doctorate courses.
I do however agree that many people believe that they will magically qualify as Clinical Psychologists after they graduate. It's certainly not that simple.
Sounds about right. Back in A level my psych tutor told me not to mention anything about going into criminology, forensic psychology, child psychology or any of the super popular fields (not that I wanted to) because there are thousands of students who want to become a criminal psychologist and about 2 openings for criminal/forensic psychologists open at any given time; and half of the unis were starting to figure 'best stop these people before they waste three years and a lot of funds'.
Not sure what you're on about when you say it's hidden from prospective psych students tho. I heard from just about everyone who knew what they were on about, uni included that you'd need a lot of supercompetitive postgrad stuff to become a real psychologist.
Not sure what you're on about when you say it's hidden from prospective psych students tho. I heard from just about everyone who knew what they were on about, uni included that you'd need a lot of supercompetitive postgrad stuff to become a real psychologist.
It shouldn't really surprise anyone though, should it? Psychology suffers the same problem professional writing nowadays suffers from: a whole lot of supply and not enough (paying) demand. The degree is almost as popular as law, but without the omnipresent demand and highly marketable and tangible skill set. Psychology does not have omnipresent demand and a highly marketable and tangible skill set. Just about every private company in existence needs some form of legal services, only a tiny fraction require psychological services and you can't justify employment because you've done a strenuous degree and are obviously a hard, clever worker like science, law or medicine grads.
Psychology as a science isn't at the stage where it's producing enough tangible practical applications that need specialised knowledge to support the amount of people studying psychology. There have been a lot of breakthroughs made - cognitive behavioral therapy is one of the most visible - but not enough people need CBT for anyone to go around saying 'I have a Bsc Psych and you should pay actual money for my expertise'.
A lot of the stuff is applicable for things like market research, but it's not valuable enough that companies desperately need YOUR expertise instead of the expertise of the marketing & management science student who can read the relevant material but has spent three years getting wired, drunk and laid with all of the better connected business and econ students. After all, you don't require the specialised knowledge to apply psychological research to marketing that you would to apply legal knowledge to defend someone in court, or medical knowledge to dispense prescriptions.
Let's face it, the applicability of psychological research is often a stretch. You can see it in the discussion sections of 90% of published academic papers - an interesting premise, fairly mild results and a desperate attempt to hook those mild results onto anything outside of academia. Study shows that reaction times are marginally better for seeing dots appear on a screen if the voice giving instructions is female? Applications for Sat Nav systems! Study shows that opinions are polarized when discussed in groups? Vaguely defined uses for management!
Most of the time you're thinking 'k that's cool, but how is this valuable enough to get paid?'. There are areas with more applications than others, behavioral finance and anything done by Elizabeth Loftus come to mind; but in the end it's still like being a writer: how the hell are you going to get paid with all of this competition driving the prices down?
Psychology as a science isn't at the stage where it's producing enough tangible practical applications that need specialised knowledge to support the amount of people studying psychology. There have been a lot of breakthroughs made - cognitive behavioral therapy is one of the most visible - but not enough people need CBT for anyone to go around saying 'I have a Bsc Psych and you should pay actual money for my expertise'.
A lot of the stuff is applicable for things like market research, but it's not valuable enough that companies desperately need YOUR expertise instead of the expertise of the marketing & management science student who can read the relevant material but has spent three years getting wired, drunk and laid with all of the better connected business and econ students. After all, you don't require the specialised knowledge to apply psychological research to marketing that you would to apply legal knowledge to defend someone in court, or medical knowledge to dispense prescriptions.
Let's face it, the applicability of psychological research is often a stretch. You can see it in the discussion sections of 90% of published academic papers - an interesting premise, fairly mild results and a desperate attempt to hook those mild results onto anything outside of academia. Study shows that reaction times are marginally better for seeing dots appear on a screen if the voice giving instructions is female? Applications for Sat Nav systems! Study shows that opinions are polarized when discussed in groups? Vaguely defined uses for management!
Most of the time you're thinking 'k that's cool, but how is this valuable enough to get paid?'. There are areas with more applications than others, behavioral finance and anything done by Elizabeth Loftus come to mind; but in the end it's still like being a writer: how the hell are you going to get paid with all of this competition driving the prices down?
Every psychology course description will tell you whether or not it's BPS accredited. If somebody chooses to ignore that, knowing that they want to go on to be a clinical psychologist or similar, that's their problem.
GodspeedGehenna
All true, minus the bolded parts.
1. Most of those are doctorate courses, not MSc. Those that are MSc will soon be doctorates.
2. Top-5 things is bull ****. See: clinpsy and psyclick and observe that the majority of doctoral students are not from the top 5.
To be honest, if applicants do not realise the above before they apply, then they just haven't done their research and deserve the shock they're in for. Other than that, you haven't really posted anything that people don't know.
1. Most of those are doctorate courses, not MSc. Those that are MSc will soon be doctorates.
2. Top-5 things is bull ****. See: clinpsy and psyclick and observe that the majority of doctoral students are not from the top 5.
To be honest, if applicants do not realise the above before they apply, then they just haven't done their research and deserve the shock they're in for. Other than that, you haven't really posted anything that people don't know.
Doctorate/MSc - still same difficulty getting in - possibly even harder for doctorate.
Maybe not top 5, but if you are in a 30-40 uni like myself there is little hope - the graduate statistics at the unis pretty much sum it up TBH. Also more and more psychology graduates means it's harder each year.
I did have some idea that it was 'hard to get in' to post-grads - but the statistics were not made readily available when I applied to my uni - it's not 'hard' if you are in a uni in my position, it's virtually impossible. I feel incredibly sorry for the other students on my course who were rejected from everywhere and have no idea what to do with their degrees now.
xsinfinity
Every psychology course description will tell you whether or not it's BPS accredited. If somebody chooses to ignore that, knowing that they want to go on to be a clinical psychologist or similar, that's their problem.
Read the post?
thatsnumberwang
Read the post?
No no, I did
I was just commenting on the part that said "First, there are few accredited courses available considering the huge number of psychology graduates universities are churning out every year". I understand that not everyone from an accredited course gets a place, and that's a shame - but that's not what I meant.xsinfinity
No no, I did I was just commenting on the part that said "First, there are few accredited courses available considering the huge number of psychology graduates universities are churning out every year". I understand that not everyone from an accredited course gets a place, and that's a shame - but that's not what I meant.
I was just commenting on the part that said "First, there are few accredited courses available considering the huge number of psychology graduates universities are churning out every year". I understand that not everyone from an accredited course gets a place, and that's a shame - but that's not what I meant.I meant there are few accredited post-grad courses considering the amount of psychology graduates.
thatsnumberwang
I meant there are few accredited post-grad courses considering the amount of psychology graduates.
Ohhh, sorry! I read that as not many people are getting into the graduate courses that they want because their degrees weren't accredited.
well this thread has terrified me.
RebeccaRebecca
well this thread has terrified me.
It's true, unfortunately. I found out the hard way. I wish I'd read a thread like this 3 years ago.
The statistics for some of the doctorate programmes are just hilarious.
For example,
Institute of Psychiatry: 26 applicants per place.
UCL: 18 applicants per place.
East London: 18 applicants per place.
Seems like the average is around 14.3 applicants per place (but remember applicants generally apply to four places each).
Crazy. Graduate medicine isn't even that competitive. Totally not worth it.
For example,
Institute of Psychiatry: 26 applicants per place.
UCL: 18 applicants per place.
East London: 18 applicants per place.
Seems like the average is around 14.3 applicants per place (but remember applicants generally apply to four places each).
Crazy. Graduate medicine isn't even that competitive. Totally not worth it.
GodspeedGehenna
The statistics for some of the doctorate programmes are just hilarious.
For example,
Institute of Psychiatry: 26 applicants per place.
UCL: 18 applicants per place.
East London: 18 applicants per place.
Seems like the average is around 14.3 applicants per place (but remember applicants generally apply to four places each).
Crazy. Graduate medicine isn't even that competitive. Totally not worth it.
For example,
Institute of Psychiatry: 26 applicants per place.
UCL: 18 applicants per place.
East London: 18 applicants per place.
Seems like the average is around 14.3 applicants per place (but remember applicants generally apply to four places each).
Crazy. Graduate medicine isn't even that competitive. Totally not worth it.
That is crazy! Where did you find those figures?
thatsnumberwang
That is crazy! Where did you find those figures?
Leeds Clearing House.
Maker
Easier to do psychiatry, theres a lot of demand for adult psychiatry in the NHS.
NHS Job Search:
'Psychiatrist' = 28 search results
'Psychologist' = 80 search results
Okay, I think there is a lot of needless panic on this thread.
Not quite. In europe, doing a psychology degree (the type that you get to practice with) is a lot harder than it is in the UK, so it becomes a lot like medicine. You get a few people getting onto those degrees, but those that do can practice. You just get the bottleneck earlier, in that there are more people wanting to do psychology degrees than people get accepted, plus those normally need an element of supervised experience (which is again quite competitive). Money has little to do with it.
Thats not suprising because most qualification pathways that will get you chartered will require some relevant experience. Most undergrads will not have this (although some do), which is why so few get onto the training path straight from their BScs. BPS estimate that about 10-15% of undergrads end up working in psychology. Thats more than the 3 in 130 ratio you cite, but I agree its still a minority. However, it does not include those that go onto graduate medicine, teaching, HR, uni lecturing etc where psychology can still be a focus of the work you do.
Again I would question this. I went to a mid ranking university and managed to qualify as a clinical psychologist. I have colleagues that went to ex poly's and the open university. Its about the experience you get but also how you are able to reflect on it thats most important. Undergrad ranking is almost irrelevant as long as your degree is BPS accredited - its far more about your experience and personality.
The acceptance rate is about 25% of the applicants that apply. There are about 2000 applicants a year for clinical traning and about 500 places for them. Again, not disputing its competitive, but its more akin to medicine or Oxbridge, not becoming an X-factor winner.
Thats not representative, and ignores quite a lot of different factors. Prospects are usually better for psychiatrists as when you get onto a registrar job as a psychiatrist (which is easy due to lack of applicants) you are almost guaranteed to become a consultant. Those psychology jobs are stuck at the stages they are advertised (Band 7, 8a, being the most frequent, and the consultant level jobs of 8c-d being very rare). I am resigned to the fact that I will need at least 4 different rounds of job hopping before I get where I want to go compared to 1 round if I was a medic.
Coming back to the main topic. Lots of people do psychology degrees because they are interested in the field. Some want to practice, but lots do not. In my class most did not want to pursue psychology, and about a quarter did, but most of us were happy to be learning about it. There are a lot of people that do it because they want a degree and psychology "sounds interesting", or think its a doss. It opens a huge number of areas because it is literate and numerate, and there are more and more areas psychology grads are going towards even if its not as a chartered psychologist (e.g. IAPT, charities, business, advertising).
By the way, the UK is one of the few places that do this. In many other European countries a Psychology degree is 6 years and (assuming you pass your exams) you come out of the degree as a qualified psychologist. Just like in medicine.
So why is the UK different? Why would so many universities offer this popular degree if only a tiny proportion end up with a psychology-related career? The same reason they offer other 'worthless' degrees. Money.
So why is the UK different? Why would so many universities offer this popular degree if only a tiny proportion end up with a psychology-related career? The same reason they offer other 'worthless' degrees. Money.
Not quite. In europe, doing a psychology degree (the type that you get to practice with) is a lot harder than it is in the UK, so it becomes a lot like medicine. You get a few people getting onto those degrees, but those that do can practice. You just get the bottleneck earlier, in that there are more people wanting to do psychology degrees than people get accepted, plus those normally need an element of supervised experience (which is again quite competitive). Money has little to do with it.
out of 134 students 3 got into post-grad courses recognized by the British Psychological Society (BPS).
Thats not suprising because most qualification pathways that will get you chartered will require some relevant experience. Most undergrads will not have this (although some do), which is why so few get onto the training path straight from their BScs. BPS estimate that about 10-15% of undergrads end up working in psychology. Thats more than the 3 in 130 ratio you cite, but I agree its still a minority. However, it does not include those that go onto graduate medicine, teaching, HR, uni lecturing etc where psychology can still be a focus of the work you do.
Maybe not top 5, but if you are in a 30-40 uni like myself there is little hope
Again I would question this. I went to a mid ranking university and managed to qualify as a clinical psychologist. I have colleagues that went to ex poly's and the open university. Its about the experience you get but also how you are able to reflect on it thats most important. Undergrad ranking is almost irrelevant as long as your degree is BPS accredited - its far more about your experience and personality.
Seems like the average is around 14.3 applicants per place (but remember applicants generally apply to four places each).
The acceptance rate is about 25% of the applicants that apply. There are about 2000 applicants a year for clinical traning and about 500 places for them. Again, not disputing its competitive, but its more akin to medicine or Oxbridge, not becoming an X-factor winner.
NHS Job Search:
'Psychiatrist' = 28 search results
'Psychologist' = 80 search results
'Psychiatrist' = 28 search results
'Psychologist' = 80 search results
Thats not representative, and ignores quite a lot of different factors. Prospects are usually better for psychiatrists as when you get onto a registrar job as a psychiatrist (which is easy due to lack of applicants) you are almost guaranteed to become a consultant. Those psychology jobs are stuck at the stages they are advertised (Band 7, 8a, being the most frequent, and the consultant level jobs of 8c-d being very rare). I am resigned to the fact that I will need at least 4 different rounds of job hopping before I get where I want to go compared to 1 round if I was a medic.
Coming back to the main topic. Lots of people do psychology degrees because they are interested in the field. Some want to practice, but lots do not. In my class most did not want to pursue psychology, and about a quarter did, but most of us were happy to be learning about it. There are a lot of people that do it because they want a degree and psychology "sounds interesting", or think its a doss. It opens a huge number of areas because it is literate and numerate, and there are more and more areas psychology grads are going towards even if its not as a chartered psychologist (e.g. IAPT, charities, business, advertising).
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