Barts and The London Applicants 2012

Original post by Democracy

Whereabouts do you live? Thinking back to my time at QMUL (i.e. when I lived in E1), I remember very few of my friends and acquaintances having such a bad time as you. Most lived in fairly decent houses and their rents were generally a bit cheaper too. I think you've just had very bad luck tbh, especially with your landlord.

Hah, I said "relatively"...I meant relative to the rest of London. I know it's an expensive place to live but tbh I couldn't really see myself living anywhere else :tongue:

Poplar, like five minutes away from All saints DLR. Housing prices have gone through the roof now. I don't know anyone who's paying less than £100 a week, my rent is actually pretty cheap amogst my friends.

Reply 382

Democracy

Original post by RollerBall

Poplar, like five minutes away from All saints DLR. Housing prices have gone through the roof now. I don't know anyone who's paying less than £100 a week, my rent is actually pretty cheap amogst my friends.

Docklands eh? Yeah it's more expensive around there.

Well my mates rented 2 mins away from Stepney Green station. Think they paid around £90 a week and their landlady was lovely. I think there is definitely an element of luck in finding a decent house/landlord. Rent's probably also increased since 2009, I think if they were renting the same house today they'd be paying £100ish pw.

Reply 383

Original post by RollerBall

PM me the questions. I want to know if BL have made tough interviews to stop all the derps getting in who don't understand how to talk to people.

BL was my first and easiest interview followed by Leicester and Keele was my hardest. I found them all pretty easu though but I'm generally quite good at interviews.

I think medical schools are breeding a new generation of 'derp' as you call it (actually I have no idea what that means :colondollar:

) anyway by that I mean people who may kill someone but be able to talk their way out of the consequences..

communication skills are essential I agree but like knowledge it comes through experience and practise.. it's part of the learning process at med school.. people shouldn't necessarily be expected to have perfected it before they enter.. if people can get into med school with imperfect academia then why can't they get in with imperfect communication skills? :confused:

and also I said this last year and I'll say it again this year.. I don't get the whole point of the UKCAT either.. how does passing that in any way make a good doctor?

I guess it's good though because it doesn't restrict people from an early stage and doesn't discourage people from applying for med if that's really what they want to do :smile:

in that way its good :biggrin:

sorry I just had to reply to this :biggrin:

it wasn't really directed at you.. please don't kill me :colondollar:

just a general comment :biggrin:

Reply 384

Original post by Mandy92

I think medical schools are breeding a new generation of 'derp' as you call it (actually I have no idea what that means :colondollar:

) anyway by that I mean people who may kill someone but be able to talk their way out of the consequences..

communication skills are essential I agree but like knowledge it comes through experience and practise.. it's part of the learning process at med school.. people shouldn't necessarily be expected to have perfected it before they enter.. if people can get into med school with imperfect academia then why can't they get in with imperfect communication skills? :confused:

and also I said this last year and I'll say it again this year.. I don't get the whole point of the UKCAT either.. how does passing that in any way make a good doctor?

I guess it's good though because it doesn't restrict people from an early stage and doesn't discourage people from applying for med if that's really what they want to do :smile:

in that way its good :biggrin:

sorry I just had to reply to this :biggrin:

it wasn't really directed at you.. please don't kill me :colondollar:

just a general comment :biggrin:

For me I'd be more pissed off with the people who actually need communication skills lessons...I mean what the **** is that about. Surely talking to people is not that difficult.

Reply 385

Original post by a moist feeling

For me I'd be more pissed off with the people who actually need communication skills lessons...I mean what the **** is that about. Surely talking to people is not that difficult.

but surely everyone can speak when they're not in a situation where their whole life doesn't depend on 10 minutes..? :confused:

also surely 5 years of med school would increase your confidence and tease out any shyness??

(edited 12 years ago)

Reply 386

Original post by Mandy92

but surely everyone can speak when they're not in a situation where their whole life doesn't depend on 10 minutes..? :confused:

Unfortunately not the case, and even in the interviews you should not be a complete wreck. I don't understand how people can crack that much under the pressure of an interview.

Reply 387

Original post by a moist feeling

Unfortunately not the case, and even in the interviews you should not be a complete wreck. I don't understand how people can crack that much under the pressure of an interview.

people who are not good at public speaking? either way I think it's a skill which develops over time.. part of the learning process.. as I said 5 years is a long time.. anyway lets stop spamming this thread :biggrin:

Reply 388

OP

Original post by Mandy92

people who are not good at public speaking? either way I think it's a skill which develops over time.. part of the learning process.. as I said 5 years is a long time.. anyway lets stop spamming this thread :biggrin:

I know where you're coming from, but knowledge can be trained.
Communication skills are something people are born with, and it is kinda important.
Especially listening skills.
I mean patients aren't always going to be straight with you but you're gonna have to listen intently and extract the meaning from what they're saying.
It's not soo much about the chatiest people. It's about communication which is speaking and listening and not just saying things for the sake of it.
5 years is a long time as you rightly said. If you're a social recluse I can imagine it being even longer, so being sociable is also important (but not essential because there are surely very good doctors who are on the autistic spectrum).
But like you can teach anyone who's willing to work hard enough, but not all of those would make good doctors, because communication is something that can't be taught easily.

Reply 389

Original post by joemullally

Communication skills are something people are born with, and it is kinda important.

firstly how can you be born with communication skills? secondly so your saying people who aren't born naturally extrovert can never make good doctors?

Original post by joemullally

But like you can teach anyone who's willing to work hard enough, but not all of those would make good doctors, because communication is something that can't be taught easily.

communication skills cannot be taught but they can be acquired over time. my point is that people don't necessarily have to have immaculate communication skills before they enter uni..

sorry I like to argue :colondollar:

Reply 390

Original post by Mandy92

communication skills cannot be taught but they can be acquired over time. my point is that people don't necessarily have to have immaculate communication skills before they enter uni..

sorry I like to argue :colondollar:

But if people came in with let's say better communication skills, a lot of time would not be wasted on these pointless communication skills lessons and what-not.

Reply 391

Tanina

So as long as you have a Ukcat score over 600, you're fine? It's only used as an initial cutoff?

Reply 392

Original post by Mandy92

I think medical schools are breeding a new generation of 'derp' as you call it (actually I have no idea what that means :colondollar:

) anyway by that I mean people who may kill someone but be able to talk their way out of the consequences..

communication skills are essential I agree but like knowledge it comes through experience and practise.. it's part of the learning process at med school.. people shouldn't necessarily be expected to have perfected it before they enter.. if people can get into med school with imperfect academia then why can't they get in with imperfect communication skills? :confused:

and also I said this last year and I'll say it again this year.. I don't get the whole point of the UKCAT either.. how does passing that in any way make a good doctor?

I guess it's good though because it doesn't restrict people from an early stage and doesn't discourage people from applying for med if that's really what they want to do :smile:

in that way its good :biggrin:

sorry I just had to reply to this :biggrin:

it wasn't really directed at you.. please don't kill me :colondollar:

just a general comment :biggrin:

You couldn't be any more further from the point. Very few people are getting into medical school with imperfect academia. With nobody in my year on anything below a 2.1 and/or AAA in A levels they are not really stupid.

However, there are so many people who do not know how to talk to people. Being shy doesn't cut it. If you're a shy person wtf are you doing in a course that is based so heavily around patient communication. 70% of diagnosis is made by the history which comes from talking to the patient.

If you're not good at public speaking you really should not be doing this course. I'm not sure if in the entire five years but I know people in my year who are just as useless at the end as they were at the start. I also know of fifth whos who are so incompetent at public speaking it's beyond belief.

Communication skills and empathy are not somthing you can learn. You can try, but you will never be naturally good at it if you aren't now. To quote Renal, communication skills are the only skill you need when entering medical school, everything else can be learnt.

If you can't hack the tension in a small 10 minute interview with medical admissions then how on earth are you going to cope with other stressful communication situations in your career? Telling them they're going to die/relative have died? Extracting information out of a silent teenager or an abused spouse?

I'm an advocate of intense medical school interviews. At the moment, they simply are not good enough at getting rid of the chaff.

With regards to learning communicational skills at university, what do you think that's at the expense at? We have less time doing anatomy/physiology/pathology because we are doing this absurd sessions teaching people how to talk to another person. You can get in with unsavory academics (if this was the case) and you'd still be able to pick up the work easily enough. However, if you come in with A level standard education and lack of communicational skills you have to waste time "learning" how to talk to people when you should be learning medicine.

I've had the worst experience at MedSoc this year because of it. I've had to go out and speak to patients of the GPs surgery about small talk because there are people in my year who don't understand how to make conversation. I'm sorry, but when I have deadlines, work to catch up on and most importantly sleep I do not want to go to and make small talk with a lorry driver/old biddy because some people in my year are socially retarded.

The worst part? Some of them can't even speak to the collegues properly. They have a group of 3-4 other socially awkward friends in lectures and nothing else. If you try to spark up conversation they dry up and look so awkward it's embaressing.

These people should not be in medical school and the only way to get rid of them is by slamming them at interviews.

Original post by Mandy92

firstly how can you be born with communication skills? secondly so your saying people who aren't born naturally extrovert can never make good doctors?

communication skills cannot be taught but they can be acquired over time. my point is that people don't necessarily have to have immaculate communication skills before they enter uni..

sorry I like to argue :colondollar:

No, your first point is irrelevent. I'm an introvert but I'm not a social retard. I can conduct conversations, I can extract information as needed and I'm empathetic.

I can tell you straight up my communicational skills have not improved in the first year and neither have many of my peers. This is because they don't. If you're socially inept at this stage in your life you're going to really struggle with your career choice. You learn these types of skills when you're an infant and if you don't pick them up you miss your timeframe.

Some skills can only be learnt at certain stages of development, you miss those windows then tough. My told my MedSoc tutor I felt this was a waste of time and she agreed. Most of the peoples communications skills in my group were fine and it was aimless to send us to talk to a bunch of patients to speak about their conditions. Most patients don't have a flying clue what's wrong with them so you make idle small talk for half hour then shoot off for lunch.

(edited 12 years ago)

Reply 393

OP

Original post by Mandy92

firstly how can you be born with communication skills? secondly so your saying people who aren't born naturally extrovert can never make good doctors?

communication skills cannot be taught but they can be acquired over time. my point is that people don't necessarily have to have immaculate communication skills before they enter uni..

sorry I like to argue :colondollar:

I never said that, quite the opposite actually , note the comment about good doctors who are on the autistic spectrum.

Communication skills are acquired over time I agree with that, what I mean by born with good communication skills are the people who acquire them by 18. It may be possible to get better at communication over the 5 years in medschool but if you've not managed to be good at communication (not expert) by 18 then what difference does 5 years make?

Most of the skills that come naturally to an individual are probably learned when that individual is a child, communication is an essential life skill that an individual going into a profession where the skill will have to be mastered to quite a high level (through experience) you would expect an individual to be a proficient communicator. Much in the same way that you'd expect a medical student to have a decent background in science so they could handle the higher level the student will be subject to on the course.

I don't understand how anyone can expect an individual going into medical schools not to have good communication skills, as I've allready said it's like not having a scientific background, or a work ethic capable of keeping up with the course. It's essential.

Medical students, even though they are not strictly taught it by lecture, will improve their communication skills. But the level they're communicating at and striving towards requires prior knowledge on what good communication is (even if the individual is not consciously aware that they're a proficient communicator, they still know.)

Plus, you're entering a profession where you have to deal with patients every day, people who are vulnerable, in difficult situations, and try to explain things that they are unlikely to comprehend at the same level. They still need to be informed otherwise they'll worry. It's all well and good knowing everything about everything, but I can't see it being useful talking at light speed about some complex injury to a six year old who just knows it hurts, or an elderly woman who can't hear you well. You could be as knowledgable as you like but that person would think you don't know what you're doing because you can't explain it to them in a way they can understand. People rarely like to accept that other people are right and that they don't know anything.

I know where you are coming from, but communication is vital in medicine, just as vital as enthusiasm or work ethic or understanding the work.
However the enthusiasm and work ethic can be easily developed (even if it's a kick up the arse)
Understanding of the work can be taught fairly easily.

Reply 394

The only communication skills we should be taught is wrt blind and deaf people. This is because very few of us will have had experiences with this section of society and it is important that we know how to adjust when speaking to them and we were assessed on it as well. However, if at this stage in your life you cannot talk to a stranger, be them young, old or your age then you need to assess if you are really going to enjoy your chosen work path.

Reply 395

OP

Original post by RollerBall

The only communication skills we should be taught is wrt blind and deaf people. This is because very few of us will have had experiences with this section of society and it is important that we know how to adjust when speaking to them and we were assessed on it as well. However, if at this stage in your life you cannot talk to a stranger, be them young, old or your age then you need to assess if you are really going to enjoy your chosen work path.

I know a bit of sign language :P
Only because my dad teaches special needs though, and we have a usefull singing seshion tommorow with St.John, hopefully i'll learn some more clinically relevant stuff, all that I know that would be usefull at the moment is where is the pain?.

Sorry it's really off track, but even those skills can be picked up if you look for them hard enough, even before med school. :P

Reply 396

OP

Original post by Tanina

So as long as you have a Ukcat score over 600, you're fine? It's only used as an initial cutoff?

As far as I know that seems to be the case.

Reply 397

The lack of communication skills is why you see people with like 5 A*'s at A-level get rejected for medicine. Most people go, "omg but they got 5 A*'s" but they will have been an absolute social retard, and hence do not deserve a place a medical school. This is why communication skills are probably more important than the academia when applying to medical school. I have to agree with Rollerball when he says that the interviews are not nearly hard enough to weed to weaker people.

Reply 398

Original post by joemullally

I know a bit of sign language :P
Only because my dad teaches special needs though, and we have a usefull singing seshion tommorow with St.John, hopefully i'll learn some more clinically relevant stuff, all that I know that would be usefull at the moment is where is the pain?.

Sorry it's really off track, but even those skills can be picked up if you look for them hard enough, even before med school. :P

I wanted to learn sign lanuage in my first year of sixth form so I could be fairly profficient in it by the time I went to med school. The local BSL school charged a **** load though and had it's teaching sessions at silly times in the day when I was in school.

I wouldn't mind learning it now but it would have to be done in evening sessions which is a pain. Like I said though, a lot of your average applicants will probably not have had that much experience in dealing with blind or deaf people so will probably struggle if thrown straight in with a patient. Although, patients are generally used to speaking to people who don't know how to speak to them so I'm not sure how it would work.

I actually never went to a bunch of "communication skills" workshops as I favoured a PC game or a extra few hours kip. I was completely fine in the OSCE station speaking to a deaf lady despite her not having her hearing aids in either due to an infection. I think it's all common sense really, I have quite good comms skills though.

Reply 399

OP