The Student Room Group

RAF Typhoons and Rapier being installed at key sites

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Original post by Good bloke
How many of these people are privy to intelligence about likely threats, understand the likely threats and understand how to counter such threats?





.... That was kinda my point.
Reply 21
Original post by Aj12
I'm sure you know more about this than the MOD.


did i claim to know more about this than the MOD? no.
Reply 22
Original post by cl_steele
did i claim to know more about this than the MOD? no.


correct me if im wrong but wouldnt shooting down down a plane over london do far more damage than a single plane hitting something as instead of one big bang somewhere youll now have lots of large bits of plane or what have you reigning down across an entire city ... i for one, if i lived in london, wouldnt want a jet engine coming through my roof if some oik decided to blow up a plane above my house... plus with 'precautions' like these and especially with the rapier systems is it not possible scenarios like the USS Vincennes could happen..?

Well you seem to think you do. The MOD is going to have thought of all this already.
(edited 11 years ago)
Reply 23
Hmmm, lets see:

80,000+ people in a Stadium + 200 on a jet when it ploughs into a sporting event

VERSUS

200 people in a jet + the odd person here and there if we shoot one out of the sky.

Not seeing the problem here.
Reply 24
Original post by cl_steele
hence the correct me if im wrong bit...
and lets be honest the MOD are idiots id rather trust a Katie Price to organise the defence of the nation. the list of spectacular blunders theyve committed is huge, so i'll take their opinion with a pinch of salt and think of the wider implications of blowing up potentially 600 tonnes flying tank of steel and petrol on top of the nations capital...
besides im not saying its a bad idea to have defences in place im saying theyve gone into serious over kill on the matter.


Don't be a tool.

Care to list these 'spectacular blunders' they've made in operations?
Reply 26
Messing up pay is "spectacular" now?

You and I have different definitions of the word.



The key thing you're failing to recognise is one specific word I used in my question: 'operations'. Not one of the cited mistakes was made by the planning department or by military personnel in operations. Admin flunkies are the same the world over, underpaid, udnerscrutinised and capable of human error. The section of the MoD dealing with planning of military operations, whether exercise or not, are not populated by the same people who process pay or update websites.
Not understanding, accepting or believing that is not understanding or knowing what the MoD does and how it works.
Reply 27
Nobody care to riposte my point?
Original post by cl_steele
hence the correct me if im wrong bit...
and lets be honest the MOD are idiots id rather trust a Katie Price to organise the defence of the nation. the list of spectacular blunders theyve committed is huge, so i'll take their opinion with a pinch of salt and think of the wider implications of blowing up potentially 600 tonnes flying tank of steel and petrol on top of the nations capital...
besides im not saying its a bad idea to have defences in place im saying theyve gone into serious over kill on the matter.


I don't think you quite understand how small a plane is in relation to a city...and also how much smaller the pieces of the plane would be once hit by a AA missile system...

It is possible that...perhaps...1 house could be hit by an engine...'if' the engine happened to not be fractured/blown up. However, it would not 'shower' the city in debris, and any/most debris that falls will either be small or light enough to at most bounce off your roof.

Compare that to the damage caused by a plane, travelling extremely quickly (full throttle & in a dive), crashing in to a stadium with 80,000+ people...

Yeah, shooting down the plane is such a baaad idea :rolleyes:
Reply 29
Original post by Schleigg
Nobody care to riposte my point?


no because its offensive how you trivialise lives like that ... and skew the numbers so horrifically as well.
Reply 30
Original post by Fenrirs_space
I don't think you quite understand how small a plane is in relation to a city...and also how much smaller the pieces of the plane would be once hit by a AA missile system...

It is possible that...perhaps...1 house could be hit by an engine...'if' the engine happened to not be fractured/blown up. However, it would not 'shower' the city in debris, and any/most debris that falls will either be small or light enough to at most bounce off your roof.

Compare that to the damage caused by a plane, travelling extremely quickly (full throttle & in a dive), crashing in to a stadium with 80,000+ people...

Yeah, shooting down the plane is such a baaad idea :rolleyes:


i dont think you understand how big the SAMs being used are ... these arent huge long range things thatll flatten a city block theyre small things designed to down a plane, not blow it into tiny little bits so with 600 tonnes of metal reigning down across a large area theyre hardly going to 'bounce off your roof' ... notice lockerbie? where one bit of debris from the lockerbie bombing hit.
id like to see you push the bottom to kill 400 odd people on a plane.. and besides i never said i was against the idea of shooting down a plane if it was making a bee line for the stadium im just stating what would happen if it were done and what can go wrong with the system anyway.
Original post by cl_steele
i dont think you understand how big the SAMs being used are ... these arent huge long range things thatll flatten a city block theyre small things designed to down a plane, not blow it into tiny little bits so with 600 tonnes of metal reigning down across a large area theyre hardly going to 'bounce off your roof' ... notice lockerbie? where one bit of debris from the lockerbie bombing hit.
id like to see you push the bottom to kill 400 odd people on a plane.. and besides i never said i was against the idea of shooting down a plane if it was making a bee line for the stadium im just stating what would happen if it were done and what can go wrong with the system anyway.


I would be suprised if they were...considering that there arn't really any SAM systems capable of flattening a city block anyway :rolleyes: I know full well the size of the ones being used (rapiers, which generally have more than one launch tube due to the fact that it's rare for one missile to do the job effectivly).

And lockerbie was a completely seperate case with different dynamics/forces involved. Apart from a plane & an explosion, the two are not comparable.
Reply 32
Original post by cl_steele
i dont think you understand how big the SAMs being used are ... these arent huge long range things thatll flatten a city block theyre small things designed to down a plane, not blow it into tiny little bits so with 600 tonnes of metal reigning down across a large area theyre hardly going to 'bounce off your roof' ... notice lockerbie? where one bit of debris from the lockerbie bombing hit.
id like to see you push the bottom to kill 400 odd people on a plane.. and besides i never said i was against the idea of shooting down a plane if it was making a bee line for the stadium im just stating what would happen if it were done and what can go wrong with the system anyway.


It doesn't take rocket science to know that an aircraft destroyed at 33,000ft will spread it's debris over a far greater area than one destroyed at 1,500ft.

And besides, the principle behind putting the missiles in place - if indeed they do get put in place, them doing so for the exercise is only a suggestion - is that their presence acts as a deterrence, that people won't try to attack to that way if they won't succeed.
Reply 33
Original post by Fenrirs_space
I would be suprised if they were...considering that there arn't really any SAM systems capable of flattening a city block anyway :rolleyes: I know full well the size of the ones being used (rapiers, which generally have more than one launch tube due to the fact that it's rare for one missile to do the job effectivly).

And lockerbie was a completely seperate case with different dynamics/forces involved. Apart from a plane & an explosion, the two are not comparable.


yes that was an exageration, no need to take it so literally.. although an s-300 would do a pretty decent job ... i mean look at the size of these things

either way fireing multiple missiles at the thing doesnt mean any less tonnage is going to come and smash into london..

errr yes they are? plane go bang in sky, plane hit ground how is that not relateable to what would happen if you shot down a jumbo over london? :s-smilie:
Reply 34
Original post by Drewski
It doesn't take rocket science to know that an aircraft destroyed at 33,000ft will spread it's debris over a far greater area than one destroyed at 1,500ft.

And besides, the principle behind putting the missiles in place - if indeed they do get put in place, them doing so for the exercise is only a suggestion - is that their presence acts as a deterrence, that people won't try to attack to that way if they won't succeed.


im not quite sure what your point is meant to be there? if its destroyed higher then more of london will be effected but to a lesser degree if its shot down loser than youre going to have smaller areas of london far more heavily damaged..?

im aware of why theyre there and the army trying to show their cojones to the world ... the fact remains though that the chances of a plane being hijacked and flown into the games are so miniscule that the massive defences that are being taken are completely out of proportion... these bombers arent idiots
Reply 35
It seems trolls are getting smarter....

:2012:
Reply 36
Original post by J.Star
It seems trolls are getting smarter....

:2012:


what?
Reply 37
Original post by cl_steele
im not quite sure what your point is meant to be there? if its destroyed higher then more of london will be effected but to a lesser degree if its shot down loser than youre going to have smaller areas of london far more heavily damaged..?

im aware of why theyre there and the army trying to show their cojones to the world ... the fact remains though that the chances of a plane being hijacked and flown into the games are so miniscule that the massive defences that are being taken are completely out of proportion... these bombers arent idiots


The point is that comparing the Lockerbie situation to something that might happen over London is pointless because they are 2 entirely different scenarios. It's like comparing a 2 cars bumping together in a multi-storey carpark and a 20 car pile up on a motorway. Yes, they both involve cars, but that's where the similarities end.

I'm not sure you are aware, your rantings and finger pointings on here have been all over the place. So what if the chance is small? Not guarding against it when it's known to have happened in the past would just be labelled as foolish and shortsighted - and labelled as such by exactly the same people who are complaining about things being over the top now.

People just love to have a moan.
Reply 38
Original post by cl_steele
no because its offensive how you trivialise lives like that ... and skew the numbers so horrifically as well.


It's not trivilising. It's being objective and not emotionally attached, which is what people doing the planning need to be.

I also think my numbers are pretty accurate rather than "skewed"...
Reply 39
Original post by Schleigg
It's not trivilising. It's being objective and not emotionally attached, which is what people doing the planning need to be.

I also think my numbers are pretty accurate rather than "skewed"...


a jet liner smashing down across a city will not cause 'the odd casulty' ... i.e. skewed
plus depending on what plane they could potentially steal they could be carrying up to 800 odd people, hardly a small number of people to just blow out of the sky...

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