Should doctors/nurses wear a full veil?
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Original post by Foo.mp3
Not sure why you'd come to that conclusion rationally. I write without bias, I am simply a social/political realist
Not at all, "become more moderate and seek to integrate" does not mean that many do not already seek harmony and friendship
I wouldn't like to comment on which group must make greater efforts to encourage integration, but you cannot 'integrate' into a society if you are the dominant force within it. Ergo, it is only Muslims who can integrate into broader British society (we are not going to integrate into a Muslim society in the UK any time soon)
Not at all, "become more moderate and seek to integrate" does not mean that many do not already seek harmony and friendship
I wouldn't like to comment on which group must make greater efforts to encourage integration, but you cannot 'integrate' into a society if you are the dominant force within it. Ergo, it is only Muslims who can integrate into broader British society (we are not going to integrate into a Muslim society in the UK any time soon)
So what is your idea of Integration?
If I couldn't see their face I would request another doctor/nurse.
Original post by interact
Personally, I believe that Muslims have to realise that they are still guests in non-Muslim lands for whatever reason whether we like it or not, and the non-Muslims have made a lot of allowances for us as their guests.
I find this statement really rather strange. I was born here and am a Muslim; does that make me a guest in my own homeland? The two are not mutually exclusive. Coming back to the thread, I don't think wearing niqab is appropriate in such a setting as it can hinder communication for many people, as has already been pointed out. Many niqabis do remove it in such situations, for example when teaching.
(edited 10 years ago)
Original post by Foo.mp3
Yes: "..except what (must ordinarily) appear thereof" - Surah 24 : 31
..although 'ordinary' patently could not reasonably be interpreted as relating to the culture of the kafir
Think about it.. a Jew heading up a campaign to curtail Muslim cultural practices/freedom of religious expression, hardly going to go down well is it?
Sorry, where did you get that quote from?
I don’t recall making any comment on the decision of the French?
Integration can take place on all manner of levels e.g.
• Learning, and then mastering, our language – taking care not to make others feel excluded or dubious about speaking in foreign tongues around them
• Learning about, and where appropriate adapting to, the traditions, culture, and customs of our society
• Showing equal respect for all members of society, be they Muslim men, women, kafir, homosexuals
• Seeking to engage in a civil manner with fellow citizens (not to avoid/ignore them)
• Seeking to engage in a friendly manner with local community members (irrespective of culture)
• Seeking to improve relations between, and encouraging others in ones own community to act responsibly towards, other ethno-cultural groups
• Seeking not to segregate e.g. in terms of where you live, work, where your children go to school
• Joining in debate and communal gathering outside of the Mosque, fully engaging with the political and legal systems
• Not appealing to Sharia law
..although 'ordinary' patently could not reasonably be interpreted as relating to the culture of the kafir
Think about it.. a Jew heading up a campaign to curtail Muslim cultural practices/freedom of religious expression, hardly going to go down well is it?
Sorry, where did you get that quote from?
I don’t recall making any comment on the decision of the French?Integration can take place on all manner of levels e.g.
• Learning, and then mastering, our language – taking care not to make others feel excluded or dubious about speaking in foreign tongues around them
• Learning about, and where appropriate adapting to, the traditions, culture, and customs of our society
• Showing equal respect for all members of society, be they Muslim men, women, kafir, homosexuals
• Seeking to engage in a civil manner with fellow citizens (not to avoid/ignore them)
• Seeking to engage in a friendly manner with local community members (irrespective of culture)
• Seeking to improve relations between, and encouraging others in ones own community to act responsibly towards, other ethno-cultural groups
• Seeking not to segregate e.g. in terms of where you live, work, where your children go to school
• Joining in debate and communal gathering outside of the Mosque, fully engaging with the political and legal systems
• Not appealing to Sharia law
Normally its seen as hands and face.
Posted from TSR Mobile
Original post by Truefaith
What you said about hygiene and the headscarf could easily be applied to any item of clothing.
I dont see the point of the veil which is not religious at all.
You arent going to be putting your head on people so it would be hard for germs to be shared.
Posted from TSR Mobile
I dont see the point of the veil which is not religious at all.
You arent going to be putting your head on people so it would be hard for germs to be shared.
Posted from TSR Mobile
It could, but clothing is necessary and doctors and nurses must ensure they keep their uniforms clean and washed regularly. Face veils however, are not a necessity and can get in the way and harbour bacteria if not replaced with a new one, in the same way surgical masks and disposable arm sleeves are for those who wish to keep their arms covered without breaking the rolled-up sleeves rule. You may not be putting your head on patients, but chances are you will touch your veil and this can then result in bacteria transferring if you don't wash your hands properly. It's already been said that there is a low risk of contamination, but as others have said there are still inherent problems with the veil that can't be ignored.
(edited 10 years ago)
Original post by Al-Mudaari
Actually yes it is. There's nothing against changing a custom made niqaab between surgeries.
All a Niqaab does is covers the hair and face, leaving the eyes, which is what the face masks resemble.
It's not essential, there are women who wear the niqaab who are nurses etc. without having communication problems with their patients.
All a Niqaab does is covers the hair and face, leaving the eyes, which is what the face masks resemble.
It's not essential, there are women who wear the niqaab who are nurses etc. without having communication problems with their patients.
Well it's not - there's nothing to stop it being single use, but they aren't made specifically as single use items, like surgical attire.
Got to disagree - over the past two years I've had plenty of dealings with medical professionals, and a lot of what they say is done using facial expressions: true of all communication if we're honest - what is said can only tell you so much, a lot of communication between people is non-verbal, because it tells you the emotions of someone, and your doctors emotions can entirely change the way you take news.
Original post by Foo.mp3
Yes: "..except what (must ordinarily) appear thereof" - Surah 24 : 31
..although 'ordinary' patently could not reasonably be interpreted as relating to the culture of the kafir
Think about it.. a Jew heading up a campaign to curtail Muslim cultural practices/freedom of religious expression, hardly going to go down well is it?
Sorry, where did you get that quote from? I don’t recall personally passing any judgement on the decision of the French?
Integration can take place on all manner of levels e.g.
• Learning, and then mastering, our language – taking care not to make others feel excluded or dubious about speaking in foreign tongues around them
• Learning about, and where appropriate adapting to, the traditions, culture, and customs of our society
• Showing equal respect for all members of society, be they Muslim men, women, kafir, homosexuals
• Seeking to engage in a civil manner with fellow citizens (not to avoid/ignore them)
• Seeking to engage in a friendly manner with local community members (irrespective of culture)
• Seeking to improve relations between, and encouraging others in ones own community to act responsibly towards, other ethno-cultural groups
• Seeking not to segregate e.g. in terms of where you live, work, send your children to school
• Joining in debate and communal meetings/gatherings outside of the Mosque
• Fully engaging with the political and legal systems (rather than appealing to Sharia law and supporting/engaging in extremism)
..although 'ordinary' patently could not reasonably be interpreted as relating to the culture of the kafir
Think about it.. a Jew heading up a campaign to curtail Muslim cultural practices/freedom of religious expression, hardly going to go down well is it?
Sorry, where did you get that quote from?
I don’t recall personally passing any judgement on the decision of the French?Integration can take place on all manner of levels e.g.
• Learning, and then mastering, our language – taking care not to make others feel excluded or dubious about speaking in foreign tongues around them
• Learning about, and where appropriate adapting to, the traditions, culture, and customs of our society
• Showing equal respect for all members of society, be they Muslim men, women, kafir, homosexuals
• Seeking to engage in a civil manner with fellow citizens (not to avoid/ignore them)
• Seeking to engage in a friendly manner with local community members (irrespective of culture)
• Seeking to improve relations between, and encouraging others in ones own community to act responsibly towards, other ethno-cultural groups
• Seeking not to segregate e.g. in terms of where you live, work, send your children to school
• Joining in debate and communal meetings/gatherings outside of the Mosque
• Fully engaging with the political and legal systems (rather than appealing to Sharia law and supporting/engaging in extremism)
Only because of the Anti Semitic nation of much of mainstream Islam, Jewish people have largely historically been the victims of hate not the perpentrators of it. When I mentioned France I was referring to how France has become maligned just because it is proud of its post Revolution secular heritage. Those propasals are good and what I believe when I think of integration, but how realistic they are is contentious
Original post by Foo.mp3
I didn't say it was right, although one can understand their antipathy to an extent given the plight of the Palestinians
I see, well not by me sonshine. No "errors" on my part
My own view on the French policy is, again, somewhat mixed. In a sense it is refreshingly brave, in another it is arguably insensitive, unsophisticated and perhaps somewhat foolhardy (time will tell, as the lasting social ramifications of these moves become clearer)
Oh for sure, something to aspire to, and encourage others to aspire to though, hopefully
I see, well not by me sonshine. No "errors" on my part
My own view on the French policy is, again, somewhat mixed. In a sense it is refreshingly brave, in another it is arguably insensitive, unsophisticated and perhaps somewhat foolhardy (time will tell, as the lasting social ramifications of these moves become clearer)
Oh for sure, something to aspire to, and encourage others to aspire to though, hopefully
No, the supposed plight of the Palestinians does not give Muslims the right to be Anti Semitic, personally many Anti Semites, some are even on TSR, just want to use the Palestinian situation to be Anti Semitic. France is a secular state and proud of that tradition, they can only tip toe round for so long. I'm glad we agree upon the last part though about what integration means
I have no problem with a woman wearing a veil. But at the end of the day I don't want my doctor wearing one. I have to be able to trust my doctor and quite frankly If I cant see their face then yes it will make me feel uncomfortable and on edge. I don't think its very fair to wear a veil when your whole profession is based on patient/doctor trust when you cant even see the doctors face.
I think atlesat if veils are allowed give patients a choice I personally would ask for another doctor.
I think atlesat if veils are allowed give patients a choice I personally would ask for another doctor.
Seriously? This is a topic for debate? I have never seen a doctor or a nurse in a full veil, I doubt most people have. I mean, would a woman in a full veil be working in such a public profession? When there are many, many other stories to focus on, does this even register? After a break from negative islam related stories in the media, it feels like this is just to stir the pot. Total islamophobia.
Original post by Foo.mp3
Course it doesn't, but one can understand their frustration/anger, however irrationally/unfairly it may be directed/voiced
No doubt, although then you're into a bit of a chicken and egg situation e.g. those of us who feel uneasy about Islam in the UK - is it because we're intolerant in the first place, or terrorism, or lack of cultural assimilation, or what? Complex, if interesting, issues to unpick
Meanwhile, in Westminster village, political correctness has become our new state religion
ENTER BLOOM & pals!
Aye, although I hope you will concede that no "errors" were made on my part in my OP, you simply misinterpreted what I said
No doubt, although then you're into a bit of a chicken and egg situation e.g. those of us who feel uneasy about Islam in the UK - is it because we're intolerant in the first place, or terrorism, or lack of cultural assimilation, or what? Complex, if interesting, issues to unpick
Meanwhile, in Westminster village, political correctness has become our new state religion
ENTER BLOOM & pals!Aye, although I hope you will concede that no "errors" were made on my part in my OP, you simply misinterpreted what I said
No I fail to see how being uncomfortable about Islam makes you intolerant.
No.
If you are taking up a job in a medical environment you should be prepared to put the patients welfare as top priority. Hiding your face makes the interactions less personal (and therefore less comfortable for the patient), weakens communication because facial expressions make up an important part of human interaction and makes you harder to identify (doctors should be immediately identifiable while working). It isn't part of islam and even if it was the rights of the patient to a good standard of care is more important than the rights of the doctors- if they aren't happy with it they could get a job elsewhere.
If you are taking up a job in a medical environment you should be prepared to put the patients welfare as top priority. Hiding your face makes the interactions less personal (and therefore less comfortable for the patient), weakens communication because facial expressions make up an important part of human interaction and makes you harder to identify (doctors should be immediately identifiable while working). It isn't part of islam and even if it was the rights of the patient to a good standard of care is more important than the rights of the doctors- if they aren't happy with it they could get a job elsewhere.
Original post by Foo.mp3
Intolerance is one explanation for discomfort, and discomfort may also breed intolerance. Capeesh?
The dislike of the Islamic veil is perfectly rational, the suspected organiser behind the bombings in Kenya the "White widow" escaped because she was wearing an Islamic veil. So really its farcical to assume someone who dislikes the veil is intolerant.
If I had to receive treatment or medical advice, the last thing on my mind is the doctor/nurses face.
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As has been stated over and over again in this thread, the welfare of the patients involved should ALWAYS be a first priority, for any healthcare professional.
The job is one that primarily focusses on the welfare and the comfort of the patient, who has come to seek medical assistance.
Therefore, first and foremost, it is the obligation, surely, of the doctor to ensure that the patient feels comfortable (not intimidated or uneasy) when being examined/treated by them.
The doctor should be considering the factors that will impact on their ability to build a rapport with a patient, and also to gain their trust.
Communication through facial expressions, as well as through words, is obviously essential, and hence, a main explanation re: why the specific clothing (in this case, a veil) should not be worn in a healthcare setting.
In addition, the cross-infection risks associated with the wearing of a veil should also be sufficient reason to prevent any infection-control-conscious healthcare professional from choosing to employ such a garment, as their daily work attire.
Comparisons have been drawn between surgical masks and hats throughout this "debate", although, as has been stated, surgical attire is appropriate for use in the controlled environment of an operating theatre on the basis of the fact that it is usually gamma-sterilised (or sterilised by other means) prior to use, and is incinerated after use. This means that protective theatre gowns/mask/shrubs are only in contact with potentially-infectious material from one patient. This is, unfortunately, not the case with veils, as they are not incinerated after use, providing a very real cross-infection risk.
When a doctor considers the welfare of their patient, they shouldn't really even consider wearing a veil, on account of the risks it presents, and the damage it can do to doctor-patient relations.
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The job is one that primarily focusses on the welfare and the comfort of the patient, who has come to seek medical assistance.
Therefore, first and foremost, it is the obligation, surely, of the doctor to ensure that the patient feels comfortable (not intimidated or uneasy) when being examined/treated by them.
The doctor should be considering the factors that will impact on their ability to build a rapport with a patient, and also to gain their trust.
Communication through facial expressions, as well as through words, is obviously essential, and hence, a main explanation re: why the specific clothing (in this case, a veil) should not be worn in a healthcare setting.
In addition, the cross-infection risks associated with the wearing of a veil should also be sufficient reason to prevent any infection-control-conscious healthcare professional from choosing to employ such a garment, as their daily work attire.
Comparisons have been drawn between surgical masks and hats throughout this "debate", although, as has been stated, surgical attire is appropriate for use in the controlled environment of an operating theatre on the basis of the fact that it is usually gamma-sterilised (or sterilised by other means) prior to use, and is incinerated after use. This means that protective theatre gowns/mask/shrubs are only in contact with potentially-infectious material from one patient. This is, unfortunately, not the case with veils, as they are not incinerated after use, providing a very real cross-infection risk.
When a doctor considers the welfare of their patient, they shouldn't really even consider wearing a veil, on account of the risks it presents, and the damage it can do to doctor-patient relations.
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