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There's too many Chinese students
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Original post by Eva.Gregoria
I don't feel like race is as relevant as you think because like another poster mentioned, students from countries like India and Nigeria still manage to integrate despite the different ethnicity.
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Because they speak English.
Original post by clh_hilary
Because they speak English.
You're assuming all of them do. Some of them still have little grasp of English.
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As a Chinese student, I generally agree but hope to make some points:
'Chinese' is actually a term as broad as 'white' or 'European.' Chinese people can come from China (where the majority do), or Taiwan, Hong Kong or Singapore. Each group practices a distinct culture and traditions.
But it is true that most Hong Kongers, Taiwanese and Singaporeans do dislike mainland chinese for the same reasons you do. They refuse to integrate, and are generally inconsiderate.
Everytime I see mainland chinese behave the way they do, I cringe and sigh. It will no doubt deteriorate the image of Chinese people in the UK even though as a Singaporean, we are as different to them as Americans are to British. But I also recognize it is impossible for most Europeans to distinguish between us. Similarly, I probably cannot tell the difference between a German, Brit or French unless they speak
'Chinese' is actually a term as broad as 'white' or 'European.' Chinese people can come from China (where the majority do), or Taiwan, Hong Kong or Singapore. Each group practices a distinct culture and traditions.
But it is true that most Hong Kongers, Taiwanese and Singaporeans do dislike mainland chinese for the same reasons you do. They refuse to integrate, and are generally inconsiderate.
Everytime I see mainland chinese behave the way they do, I cringe and sigh. It will no doubt deteriorate the image of Chinese people in the UK even though as a Singaporean, we are as different to them as Americans are to British. But I also recognize it is impossible for most Europeans to distinguish between us. Similarly, I probably cannot tell the difference between a German, Brit or French unless they speak
Original post by Cristocracy
Everytime I see mainland chinese behave the way they do, I cringe and sigh. It will no doubt deteriorate the image of Chinese people in the UK even though as a Singaporean, we are as different to them as Americans are to British. But I also recognize it is impossible for most Europeans to distinguish between us. Similarly, I probably cannot tell the difference between a German, Brit or French unless they speak
Everytime I see mainland chinese behave the way they do, I cringe and sigh. It will no doubt deteriorate the image of Chinese people in the UK even though as a Singaporean, we are as different to them as Americans are to British. But I also recognize it is impossible for most Europeans to distinguish between us. Similarly, I probably cannot tell the difference between a German, Brit or French unless they speak
What kind of behaviour do they do that makes you sigh?
Original post by Ravenous
What kind of behaviour do they do that makes you sigh?
I realize I stereotype but for me, most mainland chinese generally:
1) Refuse to integrate:
Most unis I know have an international orientation day for international students. Despite usually being the largest group of internationals, they form perhaps 10-20% of the intake despite making up to 50% of internationals. Further, when they come they just stick in their own groups and refuse to talk to anyone else despite us all trying (isnt that the point?).
As some have pointed out, they keep within social groups very tightly and just simply dont speak to others, be it in class or halls
2) Habits & cultures
I agree that it is difficult to entirely discard your cultural identity. Nobody is asking you to, however. All I ask is that you at least try to integrate with locals (British culture). This includes maybe not shouting loudly in public places (it's the norm in china), not cutting queues, not taking up the entire sidewalk, keeping to the side etc etc. I see these every, single day and without doubt, 90% of the time it's done by mainland chinese. These leads to them being thought of as inconsiderate and rude, and objectively, it is. Just because it's done this way in China doesnt mean it's ok. Further, you are no longer in china so kindly stop it
I have to rant about this because I think this is a really interesting topic and have some experience (not a lot) with international Chinese students, sorry if it's long-winded:
I'm a British student of Chinese heritage, my mother is a (south) mainland native and my father is from HK, and I am constantly being nagged by my mum to make more Chinese friends. When I ask her why, she can never give me a solid reason - just that I am Chinese and should be friends with other Chinese people
Maybe she's afraid I'll lose sense of my heritage and culture but I don't like to pick my friends based on these, it's seems just a tad racist
but in an effort to show her that I did care about my heritage I decided to join my university's Chinese Society. At my university, this was probably one of the largest societies due to the large number of Chinese students studying there.
At the first event, I turned up alone and decided to try to worm my way into a group or conversation. I speak Cantonese and I struggle to understand Mandarin so I found it difficult to really meet anyone when all the groups of students were conversing in Mandarin with accents so strong that I couldn't understand a word. Some people would give me looks and some would stare (because apparently staring isn't at all rude or creepy in China) as if trying to figure out what I was: I am of southern cantonese descent but having been raised here, there are probably some quirks about me that make me stick out as being westernised (or a 'banana', as my mum likes to say). I ended up being introduced to a group composed mostly of non-Chinese students after speaking to their very nice president who was walking around.
I decided not to go back and instead joined the Hong Kong Society with someone from that group I ended up talking to, it's smaller and has a larger non-Chinese membership. We converse mostly in English with the occasional Cantonese thrown in and it is much more close-knit.
My point is that it can go both ways.
I learned that people tend to stick with people they are most comfortable with and I felt very lonely when I was walking around that hall. I admit that I was a wimp and that I should have at least tried to butt into a conversation with my attempted mandarin or english but the groups were daunting, perhaps it was my British sense of politeness that told me not to interrupt. Once I had met people who I had more in common with and could actually talk to, I felt much more included.
I feel sorry for them sometimes, they're coming to a country whose culture is so different from theirs and that as well as an unfamiliarity with the language can lead to major culture shock. I guess a good way to cushion the blow would be to stick with people who understand what you're used to and are going through the same thing. It can be easy to just remain that way when you've found what you're comfortable with and some of the Chinese students probably don't even consider it a problem, being isolated from other students, they just huddle in their groups and ignore everything else.
That said, I can't help feeling a bit of resentment to those beetches for making me feel like such an outsider.
It's also that Chinese culture is very different to any European culture, or indeed other Asian cultures.
In Chinese society, there's a heavy emphasis on education and studying and most of the students coming over here tend to focus heavily on this, spending most of their time studying in the library rather than socialising.
I agree that whenever they do socialise, a lot of them will only socialise with other Chinese students which I think is down to the culture and fear. Language is also a big thing, as I experienced myself. Even though they can speak english, they are much more comfortable speaking mandarin and won't push themselves too much to try if they don't deem it necessary.
I know most Chinese students tend to stay away from the nightclub scenes as well, as their conservative upbringings frown upon it. The society didn't seem to have many socials, maybe 2 or 3 per semester compared to the almost weekly pub nights of the HK society.
None of this is fact, it's just what I think. After that incident, whenever I try to interact with them outside of class, they just seemed to find it odd that I be speaking to them in English and then proceeded to ignore me after exchanging a few mandatory polite sentences, as if to say that I wasn't worth the effort when I hadn't bothered to learn their language. That's just my experience, my dad probably brainwashed me at some point into hating the Chinese government and everyone under their rule hence my somewhat one-sided views.
I'm a British student of Chinese heritage, my mother is a (south) mainland native and my father is from HK, and I am constantly being nagged by my mum to make more Chinese friends. When I ask her why, she can never give me a solid reason - just that I am Chinese and should be friends with other Chinese people
Maybe she's afraid I'll lose sense of my heritage and culture but I don't like to pick my friends based on these, it's seems just a tad racist
but in an effort to show her that I did care about my heritage I decided to join my university's Chinese Society. At my university, this was probably one of the largest societies due to the large number of Chinese students studying there. At the first event, I turned up alone and decided to try to worm my way into a group or conversation. I speak Cantonese and I struggle to understand Mandarin so I found it difficult to really meet anyone when all the groups of students were conversing in Mandarin with accents so strong that I couldn't understand a word. Some people would give me looks and some would stare (because apparently staring isn't at all rude or creepy in China) as if trying to figure out what I was: I am of southern cantonese descent but having been raised here, there are probably some quirks about me that make me stick out as being westernised (or a 'banana', as my mum likes to say). I ended up being introduced to a group composed mostly of non-Chinese students after speaking to their very nice president who was walking around.
I decided not to go back and instead joined the Hong Kong Society with someone from that group I ended up talking to, it's smaller and has a larger non-Chinese membership. We converse mostly in English with the occasional Cantonese thrown in and it is much more close-knit.
My point is that it can go both ways.
I learned that people tend to stick with people they are most comfortable with and I felt very lonely when I was walking around that hall. I admit that I was a wimp and that I should have at least tried to butt into a conversation with my attempted mandarin or english but the groups were daunting, perhaps it was my British sense of politeness that told me not to interrupt. Once I had met people who I had more in common with and could actually talk to, I felt much more included.
I feel sorry for them sometimes, they're coming to a country whose culture is so different from theirs and that as well as an unfamiliarity with the language can lead to major culture shock. I guess a good way to cushion the blow would be to stick with people who understand what you're used to and are going through the same thing. It can be easy to just remain that way when you've found what you're comfortable with and some of the Chinese students probably don't even consider it a problem, being isolated from other students, they just huddle in their groups and ignore everything else.
That said, I can't help feeling a bit of resentment to those beetches for making me feel like such an outsider.
It's also that Chinese culture is very different to any European culture, or indeed other Asian cultures.
In Chinese society, there's a heavy emphasis on education and studying and most of the students coming over here tend to focus heavily on this, spending most of their time studying in the library rather than socialising.
I agree that whenever they do socialise, a lot of them will only socialise with other Chinese students which I think is down to the culture and fear. Language is also a big thing, as I experienced myself. Even though they can speak english, they are much more comfortable speaking mandarin and won't push themselves too much to try if they don't deem it necessary.
I know most Chinese students tend to stay away from the nightclub scenes as well, as their conservative upbringings frown upon it. The society didn't seem to have many socials, maybe 2 or 3 per semester compared to the almost weekly pub nights of the HK society.
None of this is fact, it's just what I think. After that incident, whenever I try to interact with them outside of class, they just seemed to find it odd that I be speaking to them in English and then proceeded to ignore me after exchanging a few mandatory polite sentences, as if to say that I wasn't worth the effort when I hadn't bothered to learn their language. That's just my experience, my dad probably brainwashed me at some point into hating the Chinese government and everyone under their rule hence my somewhat one-sided views.
Original post by cambio wechsel
that was (is) a sign put up in lavatories at Swansea university. I wasn't looking for the lulz. This is a cultural difference - Chinese and many other east Asian students would sooner not put their bottoms on the seat of a shared lavatory; in their home countries public lavatories are much more usually squat type and this is how they feel more comfortable in doing their business. But it can mean shoe-prints on the seat for whoever follows them in.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/howaboutthat/9074555/Toilet-training-posters-for-Swansea-University-students.html
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/howaboutthat/9074555/Toilet-training-posters-for-Swansea-University-students.html
I'm at Bath and I've seen signs like that.
The way that you generally make friends at uni is by joining in other people's conversations. Therefore, them always communicating in their own language is exclusionary, given that it's a language that most of the student body do not know.
Also things like that the Chinese student society runs its own badminton and basketball... What's wrong with the standard uni sports?
What annoys me is that lots of the Chinese international students at my uni dress really expensively - which is fine, but when one of their family says 'how's England?' They'll probably say 'oh, expensive!'
(edited 10 years ago)
Original post by -Invidious-
It's always been about money. All I'm doing is pointing out the problems that stem from bringing too many in. The Arabs have money, the Russians have money but they're not swarming over our educational institutions quite like the Chinese are.
EDIT: I forgot to add that the Arabs and Russians are at least somewhat Westernized as well. The Chinese spit in public, a lot of mainlanders still squat on loos, they are generally quite selfish compared to western standards and they don't mind brash displays of wealth. All qualities and manners which us Brits frown upon. I know people might think what I said is pure racism but after having lived in Singapore, Manila and HK for the majority of my life I'd like to think that I'm a better authority than most on this site to talk about that sort of stuff.
EDIT: I forgot to add that the Arabs and Russians are at least somewhat Westernized as well. The Chinese spit in public, a lot of mainlanders still squat on loos, they are generally quite selfish compared to western standards and they don't mind brash displays of wealth. All qualities and manners which us Brits frown upon. I know people might think what I said is pure racism but after having lived in Singapore, Manila and HK for the majority of my life I'd like to think that I'm a better authority than most on this site to talk about that sort of stuff.
Really? For some reason I find Asian students to be a lot more respectable..
Original post by DAS4793
Really? For some reason I find Asian students to be a lot more respectable..
I think he's here doing as others are and marking a distinction between mainland Chinese and those who might be lumped-in with them in a popular perception of 'East Asian students' (Singaporeans, Taiwanese, Hong Kongers, and even Japanese and Koreans). Or asking, as all of these will, that the distinction be marked. They all share a rather disapproving attitude toward the manners often seen among mainlanders, and this has recently led even to ugly scenes and clashes in Hong Kong, "go home mainland locusts' and so forth.
Something else that's true, and perhaps affects behaviour and perceptions here, is that a Japanese or South Korean student at a UK university is in his home country a perfectly ordinary person from a perfectly ordinary home. Mainland Chinese students whose parents can stump up the cash for their studying abroad are necessarily from the very wealthiest stratum of their home society. This can generate an impression that Chinese, as opposed to specifically the second-generation 'little emperors' of China's nouveau riche, are characterised by, e.g. an unappealing sense of entitlement or near-total lack of consideration.
Original post by clh_hilary
Because they speak English.
Do you work for the PRC or something?
Original post by -Invidious-
Do you work for the PRC or something?
My government doesn't owe money from the PRC government.
Original post by clh_hilary
My government doesn't owe money from the PRC government.
It was a jokey statement about your persistent defence of Chinese students. We all know China takes their global reputation seriously and employ people to sing praises of China/Chinese people online.
This is very pertinent post and I have alluded to this issue before.
And before anyone label me anything I am a UK citizen of Hong Kong Chinese descent.
I echo what the OP has said, this mass swarming benefits no one except the greedy institutions themselves. I have also encountered 1st hand how lousy the English is not only from PRC students but from many from all parts including the EU (mainly South).
The penchant to pay ever higher fees by these people sends a large signal to the power & money hungry VCs that they should stick the knife in even further to UK students (you are already paying almost the same as overseas students when factoring interest costs) fees.
The standards are obviously slipping fast and so is the quality of students. Some are no more than glorified vacationers who just party, sleep and smoke dope (not PRC but others)
Many PG courses are now devalued tailor made courses for foreign students, watered down with lots of parrot like quantitative regurgitation and without substance or conceptual mastery.
We want quality overseas students not any old fool whose daddy can pay for it.
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And before anyone label me anything I am a UK citizen of Hong Kong Chinese descent.
I echo what the OP has said, this mass swarming benefits no one except the greedy institutions themselves. I have also encountered 1st hand how lousy the English is not only from PRC students but from many from all parts including the EU (mainly South).
The penchant to pay ever higher fees by these people sends a large signal to the power & money hungry VCs that they should stick the knife in even further to UK students (you are already paying almost the same as overseas students when factoring interest costs) fees.
The standards are obviously slipping fast and so is the quality of students. Some are no more than glorified vacationers who just party, sleep and smoke dope (not PRC but others)
Many PG courses are now devalued tailor made courses for foreign students, watered down with lots of parrot like quantitative regurgitation and without substance or conceptual mastery.
We want quality overseas students not any old fool whose daddy can pay for it.
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extermin8or
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(edited 10 years ago)
Original post by -Invidious-
It was a jokey statement about your persistent defence of Chinese students. We all know China takes their global reputation seriously and employ people to sing praises of China/Chinese people online.
We call them the 5c Party as they are rumoured to pay 5 cents for each comment.
Original post by DurhamXI
Universities are businesses, businesses which do not particularly care about any of their students.
NO disagree a business is a private entreprise which takes risks; if their venture does not work out then they will fall.
A UK university is foremostly backed financially by the government. There is no risk for them, they can never go bankrupt unless they do something extreme like house terrorist or something like that.
This is why they act like dictators .... and for most part get away with it.
Original post by RibenaRockstar
I'm at Bath and I've seen signs like that.
The way that you generally make friends at uni is by joining in other people's conversations. Therefore, them always communicating in their own language is exclusionary, given that it's a language that most of the student body do not know.
Also things like that the Chinese student society runs its own badminton and basketball... What's wrong with the standard uni sports?
What annoys me is that lots of the Chinese international students at my uni dress really expensively - which is fine, but when one of their family says 'how's England?' They'll probably say 'oh, expensive!'
The way that you generally make friends at uni is by joining in other people's conversations. Therefore, them always communicating in their own language is exclusionary, given that it's a language that most of the student body do not know.
Also things like that the Chinese student society runs its own badminton and basketball... What's wrong with the standard uni sports?
What annoys me is that lots of the Chinese international students at my uni dress really expensively - which is fine, but when one of their family says 'how's England?' They'll probably say 'oh, expensive!'
LOL bet it makes almighty splash when it lands.
Add insult to injury a lot of them don't wash their hands.
Original post by -Invidious-
Before branding me as racist, hear me out. I know that there's been a huge increase in the number of Chinese students arriving in the UK to study, whether that be in school or Uni, in recent years. And I get that institutions are eager for them to come as they are cash cows, but is it really helping the UK as a whole/us students? I don't think it does; it only really benefits the Uni's/schools who accept them and even then it might not (see point 4).
1. It raises social barriers because the majority do not want to integrate with British or even other international students. My brother is in boarding school and in that school 30%+ of the school body are Chinese pupils. As a result sports teams have gone down the drain as they don't know how to play rugby or cricket and unwilling to learn, they sit on their own massive table in the dining hall and to those who have to live on a floor where the majority of pupils are Chinese it can be very lonely. They really make no effort to engage in conversation with other students or include others in their doings.
2. They pay extortionate fees which may well drive local fees higher. In boarding schools this is currently the case and if it weren't for the £9000 a year cap for Uni's a similar situation to America may well come about, where fees are now astronomical.
3. Most go back to China. They don't apply what they've learnt or the skills they've gained to any meaningful employment in the UK. Instead they help further their own country using a UK degree.
4. Cheating is rife in China which means that many Chinese students might not be here on their own merit anyway. Completely anecdotal evidence yet again, but I've had a number of Chinese students in tutorials when I was in Uni and the vast majority couldn't speak or write English to an adequate level. It not only made me sorry for the people who had to work with them, but it made me wonder how they even got onto the course and whether they were failing or not.
1. It raises social barriers because the majority do not want to integrate with British or even other international students. My brother is in boarding school and in that school 30%+ of the school body are Chinese pupils. As a result sports teams have gone down the drain as they don't know how to play rugby or cricket and unwilling to learn, they sit on their own massive table in the dining hall and to those who have to live on a floor where the majority of pupils are Chinese it can be very lonely. They really make no effort to engage in conversation with other students or include others in their doings.
2. They pay extortionate fees which may well drive local fees higher. In boarding schools this is currently the case and if it weren't for the £9000 a year cap for Uni's a similar situation to America may well come about, where fees are now astronomical.
3. Most go back to China. They don't apply what they've learnt or the skills they've gained to any meaningful employment in the UK. Instead they help further their own country using a UK degree.
4. Cheating is rife in China which means that many Chinese students might not be here on their own merit anyway. Completely anecdotal evidence yet again, but I've had a number of Chinese students in tutorials when I was in Uni and the vast majority couldn't speak or write English to an adequate level. It not only made me sorry for the people who had to work with them, but it made me wonder how they even got onto the course and whether they were failing or not.
Agree with you quite a bit. I mean, doesn't anyone find it insane, that one can study at an English Uni, in England, without knowing how to speak, read or write English. Who are the people let them study here?? Isn't there any quality control?
I think that the UK education department is in cahoots with the Chinese government for this to happen, so that the UK govt can get special privileges(similar to the situation in the US).
I think the reason fees are going up is so that the fat cats who run the education industry can line their pockets.
By the way, I am an international student of Chinese descent(but not from China).
(edited 10 years ago)
Original post by Cristocracy
As a Chinese student, I generally agree but hope to make some points:
'Chinese' is actually a term as broad as 'white' or 'European.' Chinese people can come from China (where the majority do), or Taiwan, Hong Kong or Singapore. Each group practices a distinct culture and traditions.
But it is true that most Hong Kongers, Taiwanese and Singaporeans do dislike mainland chinese for the same reasons you do. They refuse to integrate, and are generally inconsiderate.
Everytime I see mainland chinese behave the way they do, I cringe and sigh. It will no doubt deteriorate the image of Chinese people in the UK even though as a Singaporean, we are as different to them as Americans are to British. But I also recognize it is impossible for most Europeans to distinguish between us. Similarly, I probably cannot tell the difference between a German, Brit or French unless they speak
'Chinese' is actually a term as broad as 'white' or 'European.' Chinese people can come from China (where the majority do), or Taiwan, Hong Kong or Singapore. Each group practices a distinct culture and traditions.
But it is true that most Hong Kongers, Taiwanese and Singaporeans do dislike mainland chinese for the same reasons you do. They refuse to integrate, and are generally inconsiderate.
Everytime I see mainland chinese behave the way they do, I cringe and sigh. It will no doubt deteriorate the image of Chinese people in the UK even though as a Singaporean, we are as different to them as Americans are to British. But I also recognize it is impossible for most Europeans to distinguish between us. Similarly, I probably cannot tell the difference between a German, Brit or French unless they speak
Good post.
Students from China tend to be the most insular of international students. However ethnic Chinese students from Malaysia are quite sociable. Of course this is anecdotal, but I'm sure other people's experiences will match mine. I just don't understand why you would go 5,000 miles across the world to study in a foreign country, and not engage in their culture. Personally I came to university to get out of my setting, and meet new and diverse people from different backgrounds. Obviously culture shock and language barriers do present a problem, I know this from personal experience, but if you can't speak the language and are not willing to engage in the culture why exactly study here? I knew a guy who lived in an international student flat and he said it was torture, they just didn't want to socialise and no matter how much effort he put in they just stuck to themselves.
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