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Who was first to Palestine? Palestinians or Israelis?

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Reply 80

LordMarmalade

Original post by I Will Roast You

Isn't it obvious from the name? PALESTINIANS for PALESTINE

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What kind of name is Jerusalem? Is it an Arabic name?

Reply 81

LordMarmalade

Original post by grandmasterchief

The matter here is not of religion, it's a legal matter. Israel as it exists today, is not in accordance to the International Laws.

Actually, the state of Israel is absolutely legal under international law.

It was the Arabs who defied international law and tried to destroy the State of Israel in 1948. The entire Arab world ganged up on the Jews, and they lost.

You can't be the first one to resort to violence, then complain about the outcome

Reply 82

LordMarmalade

Original post by NutellaAddiction

But the thing is Hamas don't actually use human shields....
Do research please :smile:

My dear, you are confused.

When Hamas fires its rockets at Israel from a civilian area, knowing the Israelis will retaliate, when Hamas stores its rockets in schools and hospitals, when Hamas leadership shelters in hardened bunkers like cowards while banning the civilian population from being allowed in, that is what is known as "using human shields"

The difference between Hamas and Israel is that Hamas uses humans to shield its rockets, and Israel uses rockets to shield its humans. I suppose they place a different value on life

Reply 83

LordMarmalade

Original post by grandmasterchief

You don't understand. The Israelis living in Israel TODAY have no ties to the Ancient Israel. And even if they did, what kind of logic is that?? If my family owned a house many many years ago, I can't go claim it now just bc it used to belong to them!!!

Actually, the Israelis today do have ties to ancient Israel.

There has been a continuous Jewish presence in Israel since ancient times, they never entirely left. There is also a cultural and linguistic and ethnic link between ancient Israelis and modern Jews (do you know what Hebrew is?)

Also, a majority of modern Israelis are descended from Middle Eastern Jews who were expelled from countries like Iraq, Egypt and Yemen

Reply 84

LordMarmalade

Original post by Daryabrm

correcto

Original post by Durance

Israelis are mostly just Eastern European immigrants. Palestinians are Levant people who have lived there for centuries.

Not correcto, laughably wrong.

A majority of modern Israelis are Mizrahi Jews, that is, Middle Eastern Jews

Reply 85

LordMarmalade

Original post by grandmasterchief

The Ashkenazi tribe originally come from Eastern Europe

The Ashkenazis are a minority in Israel.

A majority of modern Israelis are Mizrahi Jews; that is, Middle Eastern Jews.

Didn't you know that? :h:

Reply 86

LordMarmalade

Original post by grandmasterchief

And if you imprison many people in an open air prison for decades (Gaza)

I'm sorry but you seem to be confused.

The blockade of Gaza only started in 2007.

Do you know what happened in 2006?

Reply 87

LordMarmalade

Original post by The Clockwork Apple

Of course. But Zionism holds the ideology of Jews being in geographical Israel. The Israeli nationality has only existed for about 67 years.

He was wrong to say a majority of Israeli Jews are European, they are not

A majority of Israeli Jews are Mizrahi, which are Middle Eastern Jews. It was about 75% Mizrahi until the early 1990s, it's now in the low 60%s because of immigration from the former Soviet Union

The idea that Israel is somehow a European colonial state is laughable. Israel is peopled predominantly by Jews who were happily living in Egypt, Iraq and Yemen until the Muslim Arabs expelled them

Reply 88

LordMarmalade

Original post by Onde

The UN should not have recognised the Israeli state if they believed chiefly in the importance of self-determination

That makes no sense whatsoever. It's precisely because the UN was operating on the principle of self-determination that they recognised the Jewish state in areas where there was a Jewish majority

Reply 89

LordMarmalade

Original post by Onde

I did not know this, and I tentatively see it may be correct

Proposed UN state areas

Territory	Arab and other population	% Arab and other	Jewish population	% Jewish	Total population
Arab State	725,000	99%	10,000	1%	735,000
Jewish State	407,000	45%	498,000	55%	905,000
International	105,000	51%	100,000	49%	205,000
Total	1,237,000	67%	608,000	33%	1,845,000

The UN Committee only assigned those areas that would have a Jewish majority to the State of Israel.

I can think of no right the Arab Muslims (the 45% in the assigned Israel area) could assert that would say that they should never live under a non-Muslim government if they are in an area where they are not the majority, and I can think of no serious claim to say that Palestine is somehow inherently Muslim and can never be anything else (unless one is an Arab/Muslim supremacist).

And I can think of no right of those Arab-Muslims in those areas assigned to the Arab state to say they have some kind of inherent right to a say in what happens outside their assigned state area, or to rule over areas outside their assigned state (again, unless one is an Arab/Muslim supremacist)

The fact is that there was continuous Jewish presence in Israel from ancient times to modern. Also, some Jews fleeing the Third Reich fled to Palestine. Also, the State of Israel had massive population increases in the aftermath of the Arab rejection of the partition plan (and the 1948 War that happened when five Arab armies invaded Palestine to crush the Jewish state).

At that point, Jews in those Arab states found it impossible to continue living there, and moved to Israel; this is why a majority of Jews in Israel today are Mizrahi (middle eastern) Jews

(edited 9 years ago)

Reply 90

LordMarmalade

Original post by Onde

The Israeli issue of nationality is more to do with faith than nationality

Thanks for the follow.

I'd also like to address this point. Zionism was not a religous movement. In fact, the earliest Zionist settlers (who set up the kibbutzes and so on) were atheist socialists.

It is a very important tenet of Judaism that it is not just a religion, but a "nation" (this is how they refer to themselves in the Torah / Hebrew Bible). The idea of Israel is "a nation-state for a nation". And Judaism clearly does have an ethnic/cultural component given there are atheist Jews.

Some Muslim propagandists try to undermine the idea that Jews are a cohesive and recognisable group, and pretend somehow there is no link between European Jews and ancient JEws.

In fact, there is no question they are linked by direct patrimony; their language (Hebrew), their religion, their culture. As far as I know, Judaism/Hebrews is the only culture that has survived intact from antiquity (the Assyrians, maybe, are another one. They also are being attacked and chased out of the Middle East by Muslim chauvinists)

(edited 9 years ago)

Reply 91

The Epicurean

Original post by LordMarmalade

Some Jewish people moved from Europe to Palestine, however a majority of Israelis today are descended from Middle Eastern Jews (most of whom were expelled from lands like Iraq by Muslims)

Many Irish Catholics have left Ireland and made a life abroad. Many have been driven to countries as far as the USA away from the issues of poverty, famine, colonialism, violence etc... Approximately 33million people in America now claim Irish ancestry, many of them are Irish catholics. One could argue a good case that many were driven from their country due to the British rulers. Now, could those millions of Irish Americans justifiably come back to Northern Ireland and claim the land is theirs, which they were driven from, and that Northern Ireland is a catholic country and that it belongs to the Catholics and not the Protestants?

The issue is that these people are now Americans, despite their Irish ancestry. Their ancestry does not entitle them to the land. The Protestants for instance have lived in Northern Ireland now for centuries and so Northern Ireland is just as much theirs as the Catholics. So even if we were to say that these Muslims within Palestine came from Iraq and invaded and displaced the Jewish inhabitants, it happened so long ago that we cannot justify denying them the land their ancestors took. They cannot be held responsible for their ancestors' acts.

Reply 92

anarchism101

Original post by LordMarmalade

The UN Committee only assigned those areas that would have a Jewish majority to the State of Israel.

Not true. Of 16 administrative sub-districts in Mandatory Palestine, 15 had Arab majorities in 1947; only Jaffa had a Jewish majority. In terms of land ownership (more indicative of long-standing communities), the Arabs had more in all 16.

The UN Committee tried to include as many Jews as possible (and, though to a lesser extent, as much land as possible) in the area designated for a Jewish state while still maintaining a noticeable Jewish majority within that state. In general this meant only areas which were more or less exclusively Arab were designated for the Arab state, while areas with an Arab overall majority but sizable Jewish minority were designated for the Jewish state (the only exception to this rule was Jerusalem).

If they'd genuinely looked at partition with equality to both sides, looking at where which community was the majority where, they could never realistically have come out with a 55-45 split in one and a 99-1 split in the other.

I can think of no right the Arab Muslims (the 45% in the assigned Israel area) could assert that would say that they should never live under a non-Muslim government if they are in an area where they are not the majority, and I can think of no serious claim to say that Palestine is somehow inherently Muslim and can never be anything else (unless one is an Arab/Muslim supremacist).

And I can think of no right of those Arab-Muslims in those areas assigned to the Arab state to say they have some kind of inherent right to a say in what happens outside their assigned state area, or to rule over areas outside their assigned state (again, unless one is an Arab/Muslim supremacist).

Not all Arabs are Muslim, you know? In 1947, ~10% of Palestinian Arabs were Christian. In fact, at least until the start of the Mandatory period, it wouldn't have been wrong to include the old millet Jews as Arabs.

Reply 93

Boo-Urns

Original post by LordMarmalade

Some Jewish people moved from Europe to Palestine, however a majority of Israelis today are descended from Middle Eastern Jews (most of whom were expelled from lands like Iraq by Muslims)

Not sure who told you this but its wrong. The majority of Israeli Jews (around 65-70%) are Ashkenazi ie descendants of immigrants from Europe after WW2.

Reply 94

golden tribe

Well who ever it was it certainly wasn't the current eastern Europeans who stole the land now.

Reply 95

KingStannis

If you support the Palestinian stance because the Muslims used to live in that bit of land then to be consistent you have to support The Irish walking into northern Island and slaughtering every Protestant there because the land used to be theirs. You cannot support one and not the other.

Reply 96

anarchism101

Original post by KingStannis

Does "supporting the Palestinian stance" necessarily mean advocating the killing of every Jew in Israel, according to you?

And as I said in my previous post, not all Palestinians are Muslim.

(edited 9 years ago)

Reply 97

KingStannis

Original post by anarchism101

Does "supporting the Palestinian stance" necessarily mean advocating the killing of every Jew in Israel, according to you?

And as I said in my previous post, not all Palestinians are Muslim.