The Student Room Group

Fourth A level concern

Hello, whilst I am currently doing four A levels, and I believe I will be able to reach the grades I need to apply for aspirational colleges (Currently looking at Cambridge as my dream college), I will need to pick a job to save up to go to uni because I cannot afford to otherwise as once I leave home, I am on my own as my parents simply cannot afford to aid me. Due to this, I am aware my grades will slip, which risks putting me below the bracket needed for the grade requirements for aspirational universities, so I wanted to ask if there was my application would be any less competitive if I were to apply with three A levels instead of four, as I simply cannot afford to go to uni if I do not work, and I have been stressing out about it for a while (If it is relevant, I wish to do maths at uni) any advice would be appreciated :smile:
Original post by Anonymous
Hello, whilst I am currently doing four A levels, and I believe I will be able to reach the grades I need to apply for aspirational colleges (Currently looking at Cambridge as my dream college), I will need to pick a job to save up to go to uni because I cannot afford to otherwise as once I leave home, I am on my own as my parents simply cannot afford to aid me. Due to this, I am aware my grades will slip, which risks putting me below the bracket needed for the grade requirements for aspirational universities, so I wanted to ask if there was my application would be any less competitive if I were to apply with three A levels instead of four, as I simply cannot afford to go to uni if I do not work, and I have been stressing out about it for a while (If it is relevant, I wish to do maths at uni) any advice would be appreciated :smile:

For which course at Cambridge would you be applying? (The impact of three A levels vs. four will vary by course.)
Reply 2
Although we can start 4, my school strongly encouraged everyone to drop to 3 unless it includes Further Maths. I think they were particularly spooked when offers were being made for all 4 A levels rather than the best 3 for entry last year. Why make things unnecessarily difficult? Spending your free time outside of work and study on super cuticular activities may be more beneficial to strengthening your application.
Reply 3
Original post by DataVenia
For which course at Cambridge would you be applying? (The impact of three A levels vs. four will vary by course.)


I want to go to Cambridge to study maths. I am doing maths, further maths physics and computer science, which whilst I can get the grades in for Cambridge now, I physically cannot be in school for so many hours because my college is around an hour and a half back and forth to reach, not to mention the loss of revision time
Check the entry requirememnts but if you were to drop one, I think dropping computer science would least impact your future choices
Original post by Anonymous
I want to go to Cambridge to study maths. I am doing maths, further maths physics and computer science, which whilst I can get the grades in for Cambridge now, I physically cannot be in school for so many hours because my college is around an hour and a half back and forth to reach, not to mention the loss of revision time

There's a lack of clarity at the moment on this particular topic. It is often cited that because many schools do not provide the opportunity to do four A levels, then the university cannot "prefer" those taking four as it would put all students at all schools where four is not an option at a disadvantage.

To quote the from the admissions team at Peterhouse college (with emphasis added by me):
Original post by Peterhouse Admissions
Four A Levels can be an helpful for Engineering, Chemical Engineering or Physical Natural Sciences IF those four subjects are Chemistry, Physics, Maths and Further Maths. The subject content is what is important here (somewhat for the application process, but primarily for transition to the degree course), rather than the number of subjects taken. However, we do not expect students to be doing four A Levels and there is no advantage to doing so on a simply numerical basis. We know that not every school can offer this and we certainly have no expectation that students should be taking more than three A Levels. Three excellent grades are better than less good grades, e.g. A*A*A is better than A*AAA.

Note that Mathematics is not listed as one of those courses for which, "Four A Levels can be an helpful."

How many students typically do 4 A levels at your school? Is it the norm or the exception? The reason I ask will become clear if you look at this video entitled "The Cambridge Mathematics Course and Admissions - Open Day 2020", presented by Dr Orsola Rath Spivack, Faculty Admissions Officer for Mathematics at Cambridge. I haven't watched the full video (so you should, or a more recent version thereof) but at about 48:30 she says, "If, in your school, practically everybody takes four A levels then we might wonder why you are not, because obviously that is a school that supports the students (garbled) four A levels..."

That would imply that you might need to explain why you're doing three if "practically everybody" in your school takes four. You have a straightforward answer for that - you have a long commute to school, and need to work to finance your time at university.

Note, by the way, then when Peterhouse Admissions was made aware of the above video they responded thus:
Original post by Peterhouse Admissions
Having watched the linked video, there's no doubt that that's what was said in this talk (which was given by the Faculty of Mathematics). I will be following up on this and will get back to you both when I have an answer.

They have not since posted an update on that thread (although may have done elsewhere). Hence why I say, "There's a lack of clarity at the moment on this particular topic." Sorry. :frown:
Reply 6
Original post by DataVenia
There's a lack of clarity at the moment on this particular topic. It is often cited that because many schools do not provide the opportunity to do four A levels, then the university cannot "prefer" those taking four as it would put all students at all schools where four is not an option at a disadvantage.

To quote the from the admissions team at Peterhouse college (with emphasis added by me):

Note that Mathematics is not listed as one of those courses for which, "Four A Levels can be an helpful."

How many students typically do 4 A levels at your school? Is it the norm or the exception? The reason I ask will become clear if you look at this video entitled "The Cambridge Mathematics Course and Admissions - Open Day 2020", presented by Dr Orsola Rath Spivack, Faculty Admissions Officer for Mathematics at Cambridge. I haven't watched the full video (so you should, or a more recent version thereof) but at about 48:30 she says, "If, in your school, practically everybody takes four A levels then we might wonder why you are not, because obviously that is a school that supports the students (garbled) four A levels..."

That would imply that you might need to explain why you're doing three if "practically everybody" in your school takes four. You have a straightforward answer for that - you have a long commute to school, and need to work to finance your time at university.

Note, by the way, then when Peterhouse Admissions was made aware of the above video they responded thus:

They have not since posted an update on that thread (although may have done elsewhere). Hence why I say, "There's a lack of clarity at the moment on this particular topic." Sorry. :frown:


It is fine, there is no need to apologise, you have given me loads of info, and so I cannot thank you enough! In regards to the 4 A level students in my year, my school heavily discourages it and so there are only a few of us left doing four A levels as I think most dropped one pretty early on, but I keep in mind most may not be concerned with Oxbridge. my primary concern was (And to a lesser degree after researching, still is that) if I were to drop down to three, then because at the end of the day, my application will be looked at next to private schools who can do four and even three in some cases, then that could affect my chances. At current, three people in Y13 at my Sixth Form have Cambridge maths offers, and none of them have four A levels, but I was worried about potential survivorship bias, and the fact that my school has sent so many students to Oxbridge (11 went last year, one(/two?) for maths, and I think the numbers are actually higher this year) that they might start looking for the better students in the sixth form as so many have gotten in. If it is a better idea to drop down, then I would do it (Because honestly becoming an even better mathematician means the absolute world to me, and it has all I have wanted to be my entire life), but because it is a pretty substantial thing, I just want make sure I consider every angle, but of course, with having a job and all, it leaves very little wiggle room for four + NEA + Revision + STEP, so I need to be practical and make sure I do what is best for my chances, as I am the first of my family ever to even go to university and college for that matter, so I really do not have much of a support structure, making it harder for me to do 4, but I need to make the best choices, so if that means keeping it or dropping it, I do not mind.

Once again, I greatly appreciate your advice and I must thank you!
Original post by Anonymous
It is fine, there is no need to apologise, you have given me loads of info, and so I cannot thank you enough! In regards to the 4 A level students in my year, my school heavily discourages it and so there are only a few of us left doing four A levels as I think most dropped one pretty early on, but I keep in mind most may not be concerned with Oxbridge. my primary concern was (And to a lesser degree after researching, still is that) if I were to drop down to three, then because at the end of the day, my application will be looked at next to private schools who can do four and even three in some cases, then that could affect my chances. At current, three people in Y13 at my Sixth Form have Cambridge maths offers, and none of them have four A levels, but I was worried about potential survivorship bias, and the fact that my school has sent so many students to Oxbridge (11 went last year, one(/two?) for maths, and I think the numbers are actually higher this year) that they might start looking for the better students in the sixth form as so many have gotten in. If it is a better idea to drop down, then I would do it (Because honestly becoming an even better mathematician means the absolute world to me, and it has all I have wanted to be my entire life), but because it is a pretty substantial thing, I just want make sure I consider every angle, but of course, with having a job and all, it leaves very little wiggle room for four + NEA + Revision + STEP, so I need to be practical and make sure I do what is best for my chances, as I am the first of my family ever to even go to university and college for that matter, so I really do not have much of a support structure, making it harder for me to do 4, but I need to make the best choices, so if that means keeping it or dropping it, I do not mind.

Once again, I greatly appreciate your advice and I must thank you!

If "three people in Y13 at my Sixth Form have Cambridge maths offers, and none of them have four A levels" then I think you've answered you own question. :smile:

Cambridge aren't going to suddenly decide that they'd fed up of accepting student from your particular Sixth Form and will be expecting to see four A levels in future, when they clearly haven't in the past.

(By the way, as has been said by @totallyfine, the subject to drop would be Computer Science, all things being equal.)
Reply 8
Original post by DataVenia
If "three people in Y13 at my Sixth Form have Cambridge maths offers, and none of them have four A levels" then I think you've answered you own question. :smile:

Cambridge aren't going to suddenly decide that they'd fed up of accepting student from your particular Sixth Form and will be expecting to see four A levels in future, when they clearly haven't in the past.

(By the way, as has been said by @totallyfine, the subject to drop would be Computer Science, all things being equal.)


Ah ok, thank you so much, you are right, it is probably the best thing to do, my apologies as I did consider that but the last couple months I have been pretty paranoid about it because I have not had loads of people to talk to about it, but you are right. I think currently I am predicted A*AAA, and due to jobs and stuff, I cannot imagine I could significantly increase my to grades to get 4 A* and it might even risk decreasing when I commit more time to STEP, but 3 A* would be achievable with improvement over summer holidays (As honestly the main issue is exam technique as I learnt the content for the AS and A level courses over summer and I just suck at writing things down because dyspraxia and my school just did not let me use my gcse access arrangements, meaning I get like no time to think in exams so that the examiner can actually read it), so it is definitely something that needs serious consideration with my teachers - I cannot thank you enough for your advice, as this has been a decision I have been oscillating between for a while, but if it is for the good of my Cambridge opportunities given my circumstances, it is most likely for the best so I will just have to swallow my pride, thank you so much! :smile:
Original post by Anonymous
Ah ok, thank you so much, you are right, it is probably the best thing to do, my apologies as I did consider that but the last couple months I have been pretty paranoid about it because I have not had loads of people to talk to about it, but you are right. I think currently I am predicted A*AAA, and due to jobs and stuff, I cannot imagine I could significantly increase my to grades to get 4 A* and it might even risk decreasing when I commit more time to STEP, but 3 A* would be achievable with improvement over summer holidays (As honestly the main issue is exam technique as I learnt the content for the AS and A level courses over summer and I just suck at writing things down because dyspraxia and my school just did not let me use my gcse access arrangements, meaning I get like no time to think in exams so that the examiner can actually read it), so it is definitely something that needs serious consideration with my teachers - I cannot thank you enough for your advice, as this has been a decision I have been oscillating between for a while, but if it is for the good of my Cambridge opportunities given my circumstances, it is most likely for the best so I will just have to swallow my pride, thank you so much! :smile:

If you dropped a subject, would your school review those predictions? Or do your predicted grades only get "locked-in" after the summer holiday anyway? An A*A*A* profile is a lot more impressive that an A*AAA profile. Good luck. :crossedf:
Reply 10
My school is quite nice with it, in regards to the fact that they do work with you if you want to go to an aspirational uni, so even if you are a bit below what you need, they will have a discussion with you and let you know they will put those grades on but with the understanding that you are not there yet and you have to do a lot of work in order to get there, so they warn you to make sure you have unis in your grades you are at currently, hence the actual grades are called "Projected grades" instead of predicted, so I will be able to have A*A*A* on my UCAS application (Because they have said to me before I could easily get A*A*A* if I dropped one) because predicted grades are variable depending on what you need. I think my school is very good for improving grades in that regard, as a good example I can think of is how my physics teacher who went to my sixth form initially was on D's in Y12, but going to the school we went to, he progressed to A* and A grades, so I certainly know it is within the realm of possibility, but my teachers do not believe 4 A* is viable at this time, so it would most likely pay to drop one if even they think it is not viable.

Thank you for your advice, I appreciate it :smile:

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