Course crisis, please help (HML or HOA?)
Hey everyone! I’ve recently (in the last few days) fallen into a state of panic over which uni course I want to apply for.
For the last few months I’ve been set on History and French at either Oxford or Cambridge- deciding which university was the big decision I had to (and still need to) make.
However, moments of doubt keep creeping in where I feel like I should possibly be applying for History of Art instead. One of my favourite sectors of history is fashion history, and Art History may allow me to explore this element. I also do art at school so remaining in touch with my creative skills would be nice. Although I wonder if this sudden doubt is also caused by my own stress about taking either the MLAT or Cambridge’s at-interview language assessment. I love the French language, and desperately want to become good it and study French literature, but there’s no denying that my history skills are better than my language skills and so I feel a sense of non-legitimacy about applying for French. Basically I don’t feel good enough, and am wondering if I would be better applying for a different course instead.
As I’m not able to do anything without overthinking, I’ve made a pros and cons list for each course.
History and French- Pros
-I know the tripos system at Cambridge allows students to ‘borrow’ papers (unsure if this is the case for Oxford), meaning I could hypothetically take some of the HOA papers whilst still doing other areas of History and also French
-Less limiting in the type of History I can study as I’m also interested in social/cultural history and when it ties into fashion I like looking at the interaction between the two
-Even though my language skills aren’t as strong I do really want to explore French literature and culture and become good at the language
-The Year abroad seems like a fascinating experience
-My original motivation for choosing this course was my love for French history specifically (although in my opinion it’s hard to have Western fashion history without France)
History of Art- Pros
-Opportunity to interact with and study museum pieces
-Could possibly orient my studies towards fashion history in later years
-May be a better foundation for going into a fashion history related masters course and as my ideal career would be a Fashion/Dress Historian or Archivist in a museum of dress
-For Oxford specifically one of the special subjects involves conservation, which really interests me
-Combination between my fondness for practical art and academic study
History and French- Cons
-My French ability may be a barrier to me getting in altogether
-I may have to turn away from the creative side of things
-If I chose to apply to Oxford I wouldn’t be able to do a dissertation, which would mean no research on a topic of my choosing
History of Art- Cons
-Possibly more limiting in terms of further career/study options
-I wouldn’t be able to also study French (I know both universities have language centres, but it’s not the same)
-My interests lie mainly in the dress/textiles realm, so I’m worried if that didn’t end up being an area I could focus on, I wouldn’t enjoy the course as much
-From a social perspective it seems to be considered a rich person's degree, and as someone who isn’t super rich I’m worried about wasting my time studying something I enjoy but can’t use (even If I do want to go into research professionally)
The most ideal course would be an amalgamation of all 3, which unfortunately doesn’t exist. If anyone would be able to give me some advice to help determine my next path or provide some insight it would be greatly appreciated.
For the last few months I’ve been set on History and French at either Oxford or Cambridge- deciding which university was the big decision I had to (and still need to) make.
However, moments of doubt keep creeping in where I feel like I should possibly be applying for History of Art instead. One of my favourite sectors of history is fashion history, and Art History may allow me to explore this element. I also do art at school so remaining in touch with my creative skills would be nice. Although I wonder if this sudden doubt is also caused by my own stress about taking either the MLAT or Cambridge’s at-interview language assessment. I love the French language, and desperately want to become good it and study French literature, but there’s no denying that my history skills are better than my language skills and so I feel a sense of non-legitimacy about applying for French. Basically I don’t feel good enough, and am wondering if I would be better applying for a different course instead.
As I’m not able to do anything without overthinking, I’ve made a pros and cons list for each course.
History and French- Pros
-I know the tripos system at Cambridge allows students to ‘borrow’ papers (unsure if this is the case for Oxford), meaning I could hypothetically take some of the HOA papers whilst still doing other areas of History and also French
-Less limiting in the type of History I can study as I’m also interested in social/cultural history and when it ties into fashion I like looking at the interaction between the two
-Even though my language skills aren’t as strong I do really want to explore French literature and culture and become good at the language
-The Year abroad seems like a fascinating experience
-My original motivation for choosing this course was my love for French history specifically (although in my opinion it’s hard to have Western fashion history without France)
History of Art- Pros
-Opportunity to interact with and study museum pieces
-Could possibly orient my studies towards fashion history in later years
-May be a better foundation for going into a fashion history related masters course and as my ideal career would be a Fashion/Dress Historian or Archivist in a museum of dress
-For Oxford specifically one of the special subjects involves conservation, which really interests me
-Combination between my fondness for practical art and academic study
History and French- Cons
-My French ability may be a barrier to me getting in altogether
-I may have to turn away from the creative side of things
-If I chose to apply to Oxford I wouldn’t be able to do a dissertation, which would mean no research on a topic of my choosing
History of Art- Cons
-Possibly more limiting in terms of further career/study options
-I wouldn’t be able to also study French (I know both universities have language centres, but it’s not the same)
-My interests lie mainly in the dress/textiles realm, so I’m worried if that didn’t end up being an area I could focus on, I wouldn’t enjoy the course as much
-From a social perspective it seems to be considered a rich person's degree, and as someone who isn’t super rich I’m worried about wasting my time studying something I enjoy but can’t use (even If I do want to go into research professionally)
The most ideal course would be an amalgamation of all 3, which unfortunately doesn’t exist. If anyone would be able to give me some advice to help determine my next path or provide some insight it would be greatly appreciated.
(edited 8 months ago)
A few things to consider about HML (as this is what I studied - can't speak for HoA):
1. Even if you are better at history, French has a substantially higher offer rate than both history and HoA - even with a poor admission test, you can get a place.
2. There is usually some opportunity to study art/visual culture in HML. A small number of papers at Oxford, for example, are taken both by history and history of art students. Sometimes modern language courses could include visual culture. You could write a dissertation on fashion history. It might be possible to study history of art during your year abroad.
3. All HML students at Oxford have to do a dissertation.
1. Even if you are better at history, French has a substantially higher offer rate than both history and HoA - even with a poor admission test, you can get a place.
2. There is usually some opportunity to study art/visual culture in HML. A small number of papers at Oxford, for example, are taken both by history and history of art students. Sometimes modern language courses could include visual culture. You could write a dissertation on fashion history. It might be possible to study history of art during your year abroad.
3. All HML students at Oxford have to do a dissertation.
Original post by liverninthered
A few things to consider about HML (as this is what I studied - can't speak for HoA):
1. Even if you are better at history, French has a substantially higher offer rate than both history and HoA - even with a poor admission test, you can get a place.
2. There is usually some opportunity to study art/visual culture in HML. A small number of papers at Oxford, for example, are taken both by history and history of art students. Sometimes modern language courses could include visual culture. You could write a dissertation on fashion history. It might be possible to study history of art during your year abroad.
3. All HML students at Oxford have to do a dissertation.
1. Even if you are better at history, French has a substantially higher offer rate than both history and HoA - even with a poor admission test, you can get a place.
2. There is usually some opportunity to study art/visual culture in HML. A small number of papers at Oxford, for example, are taken both by history and history of art students. Sometimes modern language courses could include visual culture. You could write a dissertation on fashion history. It might be possible to study history of art during your year abroad.
3. All HML students at Oxford have to do a dissertation.
Would it be okay for me to ask you some more questions about the HML course?
Original post by closetarchivist
Hey everyone! I’ve recently (in the last few days) fallen into a state of panic over which uni course I want to apply for.
For the last few months I’ve been set on History and French at either Oxford or Cambridge- deciding which university was the big decision I had to (and still need to) make.
However, moments of doubt keep creeping in where I feel like I should possibly be applying for History of Art instead. One of my favourite sectors of history is fashion history, and Art History may allow me to explore this element. I also do art at school so remaining in touch with my creative skills would be nice. Although I wonder if this sudden doubt is also caused by my own stress about taking either the MLAT or Cambridge’s at-interview language assessment. I love the French language, and desperately want to become good it and study French literature, but there’s no denying that my history skills are better than my language skills and so I feel a sense of non-legitimacy about applying for French. Basically I don’t feel good enough, and am wondering if I would be better applying for a different course instead.
As I’m not able to do anything without overthinking, I’ve made a pros and cons list for each course.
History and French- Pros
-I know the tripos system at Cambridge allows students to ‘borrow’ papers (unsure if this is the case for Oxford), meaning I could hypothetically take some of the HOA papers whilst still doing other areas of History and also French
-Less limiting in the type of History I can study as I’m also interested in social/cultural history and when it ties into fashion I like looking at the interaction between the two
-Even though my language skills aren’t as strong I do really want to explore French literature and culture and become good at the language
-The Year abroad seems like a fascinating experience
-My original motivation for choosing this course was my love for French history specifically (although in my opinion it’s hard to have Western fashion history without France)
History of Art- Pros
-Opportunity to interact with and study museum pieces
-Could possibly orient my studies towards fashion history in later years
-May be a better foundation for going into a fashion history related masters course and as my ideal career would be a Fashion/Dress Historian or Archivist in a museum of dress
-For Oxford specifically one of the special subjects involves conservation, which really interests me
-Combination between my fondness for practical art and academic study
History and French- Cons
-My French ability may be a barrier to me getting in altogether
-I may have to turn away from the creative side of things
-If I chose to apply to Oxford I wouldn’t be able to do a dissertation, which would mean no research on a topic of my choosing
History of Art- Cons
-Possibly more limiting in terms of further career/study options
-I wouldn’t be able to also study French (I know both universities have language centres, but it’s not the same)
-My interests lie mainly in the dress/textiles realm, so I’m worried if that didn’t end up being an area I could focus on, I wouldn’t enjoy the course as much
-From a social perspective it seems to be considered a rich person's degree, and as someone who isn’t super rich I’m worried about wasting my time studying something I enjoy but can’t use (even If I do want to go into research professionally)
The most ideal course would be an amalgamation of all 3, which unfortunately doesn’t exist. If anyone would be able to give me some advice to help determine my next path or provide some insight it would be greatly appreciated.
For the last few months I’ve been set on History and French at either Oxford or Cambridge- deciding which university was the big decision I had to (and still need to) make.
However, moments of doubt keep creeping in where I feel like I should possibly be applying for History of Art instead. One of my favourite sectors of history is fashion history, and Art History may allow me to explore this element. I also do art at school so remaining in touch with my creative skills would be nice. Although I wonder if this sudden doubt is also caused by my own stress about taking either the MLAT or Cambridge’s at-interview language assessment. I love the French language, and desperately want to become good it and study French literature, but there’s no denying that my history skills are better than my language skills and so I feel a sense of non-legitimacy about applying for French. Basically I don’t feel good enough, and am wondering if I would be better applying for a different course instead.
As I’m not able to do anything without overthinking, I’ve made a pros and cons list for each course.
History and French- Pros
-I know the tripos system at Cambridge allows students to ‘borrow’ papers (unsure if this is the case for Oxford), meaning I could hypothetically take some of the HOA papers whilst still doing other areas of History and also French
-Less limiting in the type of History I can study as I’m also interested in social/cultural history and when it ties into fashion I like looking at the interaction between the two
-Even though my language skills aren’t as strong I do really want to explore French literature and culture and become good at the language
-The Year abroad seems like a fascinating experience
-My original motivation for choosing this course was my love for French history specifically (although in my opinion it’s hard to have Western fashion history without France)
History of Art- Pros
-Opportunity to interact with and study museum pieces
-Could possibly orient my studies towards fashion history in later years
-May be a better foundation for going into a fashion history related masters course and as my ideal career would be a Fashion/Dress Historian or Archivist in a museum of dress
-For Oxford specifically one of the special subjects involves conservation, which really interests me
-Combination between my fondness for practical art and academic study
History and French- Cons
-My French ability may be a barrier to me getting in altogether
-I may have to turn away from the creative side of things
-If I chose to apply to Oxford I wouldn’t be able to do a dissertation, which would mean no research on a topic of my choosing
History of Art- Cons
-Possibly more limiting in terms of further career/study options
-I wouldn’t be able to also study French (I know both universities have language centres, but it’s not the same)
-My interests lie mainly in the dress/textiles realm, so I’m worried if that didn’t end up being an area I could focus on, I wouldn’t enjoy the course as much
-From a social perspective it seems to be considered a rich person's degree, and as someone who isn’t super rich I’m worried about wasting my time studying something I enjoy but can’t use (even If I do want to go into research professionally)
The most ideal course would be an amalgamation of all 3, which unfortunately doesn’t exist. If anyone would be able to give me some advice to help determine my next path or provide some insight it would be greatly appreciated.
As above a number of history of art papers are shared with the history degree. I'd also note fashion history is not the focus of the history of art course at Oxford as far as I can tell and I think this would probably not be something you would explore a great deal on it in all honesty? Also while conservation is considered by most history of art courses this is largely from a theoretical perspective usually - they are not normally going to let undergrads do conservation work directly.
Even beyond that, conservation work is usually done by professionals with really specific training and backgrounds, not general art historians so to speak. History of art is fundamentally an academic subject, not a practical one. You will see and even potentially handle art-objects in a history of art degree, but this is to support your understanding of the academic, theoretical underpinnings of the subject and the work is essentially wholly essay based. There are a couple of exceptions - UCL's History of Art, Materials, and Technology course for example - but by and large it's just a formally academic subject like history which will involve similar amounts of original source material handling (just the sources are art-objects usually rather than text-objects, although there is overlap on both sides).
Not aware of the tripos system allowing you to "borrow" papers outside of the specific options listed for each programme (e.g. Classics students being able to borrow the Akkadian language paper in year 3). Cambridge isn't like other unis where you can conceivably mix and match modules outside of your programme up to a certain number of credits provided you meet all other requirements - you are pretty largely bound by the statues and ordinances for your degree. What the tripos system does allow you to do is complete Part I in one subject and Part II in another, usually. Although it's still subject to both DoSs approving any switches and not guaranteed.
Also history of art masters degrees (and related areas e.g. history of design, fashion, etc) normally don't require any specific prior study and it's very common for students to go from other historical degrees (e.g. history, archaeology, classics, etc) as well as other degrees, to go onto a masters degree in those kind of areas.
Overall I think what you think a history of art degree entails (at Oxbridge or elsewhere) diverges significantly from what it is actually likely to entail. Which I think means that if you did pursue that you would find it a disappointing experience as you are expecting something very different. If you want a historical degree involving more "practical" aspects, you may want to consider archaeology instead, which will normally involve fieldwork and practical/lab based worked, much more so than a history of art degree.
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