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Guardian League Tables

Not Sure If there has been a thread on this:

Firstly Oxford beat Cambridge overall:
http://education.guardian.co.uk/universityguide2005/table/0,,-5163901,00.html
But don't take this too seriously, the tabs have beat us (Oxford) in most previous years, there is also possible distortions between Oxford and Cambridge over the way they work their finances.

But there are some real surprises.

I'm going to look at those subjects that surprised me:

Engineering:
1. Cambridge
2. Oxford
no real surprise, except that Oxford made it to #2. Cambridge has always previously been the best for Engineering.
http://education.guardian.co.uk/universityguide2005/table/0,15905,-5163897,00.html

Medicine:
3. Oxford
7. Cambridge
I had been under the impression Cambridge would usually beat Oxford in this area, especially as Cambridge is usually better for sciences.
http://education.guardian.co.uk/universityguide2005/table/0,15905,-5163909,00.html

Maths:
1. Oxford
2. Cambridge
Now Cambridge maths is more prestigious and usually claimed to be a harder course to get into. Oddly Oxford won on this category.
http://education.guardian.co.uk/universityguide2005/table/0,15905,-5163905,00.html

Politics, Philosophy and Economics.
1./1./1. Oxford
3./2./3. Cambridge
Oxford's famous course subjects of PPE come through in flying colours. Politics and Philosophy is to expected, but it was rather unusual to see Oxford beat Cambridge for economics, one of Cambridge's most famous courses (along with Natsci and a few others).
http://education.guardian.co.uk/universityguide2005/table/0,15905,-5163921,00.html
http://education.guardian.co.uk/universityguide2005/table/0,15905,1459563,00.html
http://education.guardian.co.uk/universityguide2005/table/0,15905,-5163891,00.html

If you look at ll the results a trend has appeared. Although Oxford keeps a small lead over Cambridge in arts and humanities, it has caught up and all but equalled Cambridge in the science department. I'd be curious to see how some of the other leage tables come out over the course of this year.

This is by no means a definitive guide to which university is better, but is possibly subject for some interesting conversation.

Reply 1

TheWolf

15

Noone likes the guardian guide tho.

Reply 2

musicbloke

17

Yes, but ther question should be about what it all means. In terms of the music coursesCambridge are pretty low and just above APU but my DoS who runs the free composition course went to hear the APU final year compositions and said that if they had handed that in at Cambridge they would have all failed except for one or two who would havee got thirds.

MB

Reply 3

Elles

17

Tom Holder

Medicine:
3. Oxford
7. Cambridge
I had been under the impression Cambridge would usually beat Oxford in this area, especially as Cambridge is usually better for sciences.
http://education.guardian.co.uk/universityguide2005/table/0,15905,-5163909,00.html

some theories for this one..

surprises me too, somewhat. given how un-politically-correct Oxbridge medicine is considered to be in general, I thought we usually both lagged far behind the rest in the country! :wink:

although saying that I was never introduced to the idea that Cambridge would be better at Medicine due to it's perceived superiority in sciences, probably because medicine isn't exactly a pure science & increasingly the 'humanity' aspect is seen as more important.

anyway - differences between them might arise from factors like:

Oxford spending on new departmental buildings increasing their money per student.
Oxford being far smaller (~1/2 the size i think!) increasing the faculty:student ratios.

or, of course, just our inate superiority.. :p:

Reply 4

Willa

11

i think a lot of people have fobbed off the guardian tables at least to some extent, due to their harsh treatment of cambridge courses. For example, cambridge doesnt even feature in the physics table, apparently because of the technicality that it comes under the natural science tripos. Furthermore their weighting for the different categories seems to lean in favour of those universities showing attempts to improve their courses...giving excessive emphasis to department spending etc. Cambridge hasn't necessarily spent that much recently and so doesnt score as highly. If you take out such factors though, you'll find cambridge comes top in all the subjects you have expected it to!

I think most people seem to favour The Times when it comes to league tables, people seem to agree it is more accurate somehow!

Reply 5

groovy_moose

1

i don't think you can easily compare the philosophy at ox and cam because you can take it as a single subject at cam where, at ox, you have to take another sunbject together with it, i don't see how the two couses compare...

besides which, when the arguemtn is between who is first and who is second, you'll never come up with a definitive answer because hey're just different and will suit different people.

Reply 6

London Prophet

OP

17

musicboy

Yes, but ther question should be about what it all means. In terms of the music coursesCambridge are pretty low and just above APU but my DoS who runs the free composition course went to hear the APU final year compositions and said that if they had handed that in at Cambridge they would have all failed except for one or two who would havee got thirds.

MB

I believe that where the APU shines is not in straight music but in music-tech and sound engineering where they are definitely some of the top in the country (I've certainly used APU sound engineers for recording before).

Reply 7

MrsJones

Elles

some theories for this one..

surprises me too, somewhat. given how un-politically-correct Oxbridge medicine is considered to be in general, I thought we usually both lagged far behind the rest in the country! :wink:

although saying that I was never introduced to the idea that Cambridge would be better at Medicine due to it's perceived superiority in sciences, probably because medicine isn't exactly a pure science & increasingly the 'humanity' aspect is seen as more important.

anyway - differences between them might arise from factors like:

Oxford spending on new departmental buildings increasing their money per student.
Oxford being far smaller (~1/2 the size i think!) increasing the faculty:student ratios.

or, of course, just our inate superiority.. :p:

"un-politically-correct"-- normally the best way.

Reply 8

MrsJones

I've been amazed that oxford should be so low down previous tables so often, and often thought that whatever criteria was used to measure performance severely worked to it's disadvantage.

Thus Cambridge has for many years found itself to be superior to Oxford in many subjects and has weaved a web of spin to support the distorted findings.

Now we see a truer picture emerging it would be better for cam to forget about the years of spin and realise Oxford is its equal and they will share, and swap the plaudits year on year.

Reply 9

observer

but come on, using inclusiveness as a measure of subject performance! What a joke. The number of ethnic minorities, mature and dissables students should have no relevance here. Thats should be looked at for access or looking at general characteristics of universities.

Just shows you how left winging the guardian really is.

Reply 10

wanderer

2

observer

Just shows you how left winging the guardian really is.

Because the Guardian has tried to keep its 'left wingingness' a secret?

The tables do seem a bit mad though - APU came something like 5th for maths.

Reply 11

JustaGuy

1

Tom Holder

If you look at ll the results a trend has appeared. Although Oxford keeps a small lead over Cambridge in arts and humanities, it has caught up and all but equalled Cambridge in the science department.

The new Times table seem to show the trend too. This year, the top spot for Medicine, Physics and Computer Science go to Oxford (for the first time?) and place it 2nd spot for Bio Sciences, Chemistry, General Engineering, Materials Technology and Geology. As a result, Cambridge topped fewer subjects this year while Oxford increased its take on the pie by 23:10. Oxford, however, does not offer subjects such as Land Mgmt, Town Planning, Sociology as Cambridge does.

Cambridge
----------
French, German, Italian, Iberian, Classics, Anthropology, Archaeology, East/South East Asian Studies

History, Economics, Law, Geography, Sociology

Bio Sciences, Chemical Engineering, Chemistry, General Engineering, Geology, Psychology, Maths, Materials Technology

Land Management, Town Planning

Oxford
------
Art & Design, English, Philosophy, Politics, Theology
Business, Education
Computer Science, Medicine, Physics

Subjects where Oxford takes 2nd spot
-------------------------------------
Anthropology, Bio Sciences, Chemistry, Classics, French, General Engineering, Geology, Law, Materials Technology, Middle East & African studies, Psychology