TSR Veggie Society
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Original post by Hylean
I find it ironic that the person who made me vegetarian, and she really did make me, is now a meat eater.
ergh, what a bleh. you should become a vegan though, eggs aren't techincally veggie, and dairy isn't ethically produced in the UK (and US, and other places)...
Original post by why_
ergh, what a bleh. you should become a vegan though, eggs aren't techincally veggie, and dairy isn't ethically produced in the UK (and US, and other places)...
Whoever said I ate eggs?
To be honest, if this thread is essentially just an ethics war between vegans and vegetarians, I'm not going to hang around. We spend enough time getting **** from the meat-eaters, do we really need to make each other feel bad?
there's too much love knows my stance on the dairy industry. This should be a thread for tips, etc. not for trying to guilt trip each other. There's a vegan chat thread, keep it there. That said, any debate entered by both sides willingly, and not started by a vegan shoving their ethics up the vegetarian's urethra, is perfectly fine.
(edited 12 years ago)
Nah, it was a different thread.
I essentially said that whilst I realise, for the most part, that the dairy industry is unethical, I believe it can be changed, if enough pressure is put on it to change. Moreover, I have less of a problem with it because I view it as essentially providing a service for lodgings and food. A Work for Stay arrangement. I realise that the cows are more often than not slaughtered after a period of time, dependent on the farm, but I feel if we get rid of the meat industry, we can change that. Or we could just work on both simultaneously.
I essentially said that whilst I realise, for the most part, that the dairy industry is unethical, I believe it can be changed, if enough pressure is put on it to change. Moreover, I have less of a problem with it because I view it as essentially providing a service for lodgings and food. A Work for Stay arrangement. I realise that the cows are more often than not slaughtered after a period of time, dependent on the farm, but I feel if we get rid of the meat industry, we can change that. Or we could just work on both simultaneously.
It's not accepting. It's realising there are imperfections but working towards removing them.
The issue with dairy farming is that standards are not the same across the board. You can't say dairy farming is evil, when there may be countries, or even just singular farms, where it is perfectly ethical. The smaller the society, the harder it is to treat your animals badly. I knew a dairy farmer who treated his cattle well and didn't sell them off to the slaughter house. Meat farming, on the other hand, is utterly at odds with my own view of the basic freedoms every living thing should enjoy: a right to life. Dairy farming can also be at odds with that, but not always. I'm not even against eating meat. I'd eat it all, if I went out and killed the cow myself.
Asking the human race to give up every animal product, especially dairy, would take far longer than getting rid of the meat industry and cleaning up dairy standards of practice.
The issue with dairy farming is that standards are not the same across the board. You can't say dairy farming is evil, when there may be countries, or even just singular farms, where it is perfectly ethical. The smaller the society, the harder it is to treat your animals badly. I knew a dairy farmer who treated his cattle well and didn't sell them off to the slaughter house. Meat farming, on the other hand, is utterly at odds with my own view of the basic freedoms every living thing should enjoy: a right to life. Dairy farming can also be at odds with that, but not always. I'm not even against eating meat. I'd eat it all, if I went out and killed the cow myself.
Asking the human race to give up every animal product, especially dairy, would take far longer than getting rid of the meat industry and cleaning up dairy standards of practice.
I'm going to assume you mean dairy...
As for the first: because, if we get rid of the dairy and meat industry, I truly believe it will be the end of domesticated farm animals, or at least a very large percentage of them. If they are no longer needed and no longer profitable, we just set them free and let nature take its course, which will be death. Specifically because the previous farmers will switch to grain, etc. farming and thus limit the land available to the new freed animals. Thus, we aren't minimising our impact, but in fact increasing it.
One can advocate change from within the system or whilst supporting the system. It's not as black and white as you're making it appear.
As for the first: because, if we get rid of the dairy and meat industry, I truly believe it will be the end of domesticated farm animals, or at least a very large percentage of them. If they are no longer needed and no longer profitable, we just set them free and let nature take its course, which will be death. Specifically because the previous farmers will switch to grain, etc. farming and thus limit the land available to the new freed animals. Thus, we aren't minimising our impact, but in fact increasing it.
One can advocate change from within the system or whilst supporting the system. It's not as black and white as you're making it appear.
I disagree. I think the farmers would either set them free or kill them off once they stopped being profitable. Even if they're bred less and less, you're still restricting the animal and the impact upon the population would be quite high: inbreeding would increase, thus genetic defects, etc. as the genetic spread would decrease; who would pay for the animals and look after them; where would they live; and many other considerations. You're essentially damning them to a slow death or a ****ed up life.
Our land use doesn't have to increase that much, as skyskrapers, etc. can be built on a relatively small amount of land.
Our land use doesn't have to increase that much, as skyskrapers, etc. can be built on a relatively small amount of land.
Caring about animals is one thing, but having the money to do so is another.
You're right, there are a lot of dairy cows, but you also have to factor in you'll need land for: horses, sheep, goats, cows, pigs and chickens. Given the high numbers we currently have of these animals, that would require reducing the stock across the world to a very small amount, meaning that inbreeding would occur after a couple of generations. Then you need to find someone who is willing to give up their grain, and thus money, producing land for these animals to live out their days, all at this person's expense.
I do not envisage a world full of vegans who care, to be honest. I don't see it happening. I reckon veganism will ultimately become a social pressure that will start to influence governmental policy, etc. until the world is either forced into veganism or vegetarianism. From that point on, it will just be the norm, but I don't ever see every person actually caring about the individual welfare of every animal, especially where money is involved.
You're right, there are a lot of dairy cows, but you also have to factor in you'll need land for: horses, sheep, goats, cows, pigs and chickens. Given the high numbers we currently have of these animals, that would require reducing the stock across the world to a very small amount, meaning that inbreeding would occur after a couple of generations. Then you need to find someone who is willing to give up their grain, and thus money, producing land for these animals to live out their days, all at this person's expense.
I do not envisage a world full of vegans who care, to be honest. I don't see it happening. I reckon veganism will ultimately become a social pressure that will start to influence governmental policy, etc. until the world is either forced into veganism or vegetarianism. From that point on, it will just be the norm, but I don't ever see every person actually caring about the individual welfare of every animal, especially where money is involved.
Original post by Hylean
I reckon veganism will ultimately become a social pressure that will start to influence governmental policy, etc. until the world is either forced into veganism or vegetarianism.
You really believe that will happen? In this lifetime?
Original post by Cybele
You really believe that will happen? In this lifetime?
**** no. I just believe that it will happen at some point.
Why not?
Vegetarians make up 1/3 of the world and that number is growing. People are being convinced that it's better to care, etc. It won't be an extreme change as it will be very gradual.
Original post by Cybele
At what point? Will this be a global thing? And why do you think it will happen?
I'm honestly just curious. It will be such an extreme change.
I'm honestly just curious. It will be such an extreme change.
Vegetarians make up 1/3 of the world and that number is growing. People are being convinced that it's better to care, etc. It won't be an extreme change as it will be very gradual.
(edited 12 years ago)
Original post by Hylean
Vegetarians make up 1/3 of the world and that number is growing. People are being convinced that it's better to care, etc. It won't be an extreme change as it will be very gradual.
Vegetarians make up 1/3 of the world and that number is growing. People are being convinced that it's better to care, etc. It won't be an extreme change as it will be very gradual.
And how many are vegans? Since you believe they will be the norm eventually.
Where did you get the 1/3 from?
People are certainly being convinced that it's better to 'care', but only in the sense of using free-range instead of caged, as one example. At least that's how I perceive it.
Original post by Cybele
And how many are vegans? Since you believe they will be the norm eventually.
Where did you get the 1/3 from?
People are certainly being convinced that it's better to 'care', but only in the sense of using free-range instead of caged, as one example. At least that's how I perceive it.
Where did you get the 1/3 from?
People are certainly being convinced that it's better to 'care', but only in the sense of using free-range instead of caged, as one example. At least that's how I perceive it.
Statistics I read years ago. No idea how many are vegans, does it matter?
I'm not convinced it will happen, I just reckon it will. There is a difference. Personally, I'd prefer the world to become vegetarian with ethical dairy farming.
Again, why not? As long as she's not *****ing at us about eating meat.
Original post by Hylean
I'm not convinced it will happen, I just reckon it will. There is a difference. Personally, I'd prefer the world to become vegetarian with ethical dairy farming.
I'm not convinced it will happen, I just reckon it will. There is a difference. Personally, I'd prefer the world to become vegetarian with ethical dairy farming.
You'd prefer the world to be vegetarian, or, a world without the meat industry?
Original post by Cybele
You'd prefer the world to be vegetarian, or, a world without the meat industry?
I never said they'd be vegetarians by choice.
I do see an end to the meat industry. Dairy, I don't, but meat, yes.
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