The West needs to be more open to migrants
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Original post by Chucky
nope the majority of immigrant who come to the UK are here for the benefits that come with the country which is costing the tax payers huge, also the providing of houses which in some cases are in prime locations and have to house about 10 people.
No they aren't, they come to the UK because they look for work, you are just basing that on some ignorant stereotype in your own head or in the Daily Mail.
Original post by Barden
Yes, I'm sure The Economist is wrong on this... 
Yes , they are wrong if they believe people from a country like Somalia who receive benefits will help the economy
Original post by Tommyjw
And where did you read this nonsense?
'Immigration' as a whole is beneficial for the economy and still gives us money however, yes, it is getting out of hand. But to say that with immigration we are LOSING billions is ridiculous.
'Immigration' as a whole is beneficial for the economy and still gives us money however, yes, it is getting out of hand. But to say that with immigration we are LOSING billions is ridiculous.
Hm lets see.
a load of them are on the dole - we lose money
they get paid less - less income tax from jobs they steal we lose money
a lot of them don't even pay tax - we lose even more money
each of them working is another of us on the dole as they steal our jobs - we lose money.
a lot are here to send money back to their families - no VAT on what that is spent on we lose money.
each of us forced into the dole isn't paying tax - we lose money
So, they give us no actual profit, but theirs lots of deficit, exactly how is that not costing us?
(edited 12 years ago)
Original post by Steevee
I disagree entirely.
Immigration needs to be tightly controlled. We should encourage the best and brightest to come here, not take everyone who turns up on the dorrstep with a suitcase and a hand out. Middle ground people, middle ground.
Immigration needs to be tightly controlled. We should encourage the best and brightest to come here, not take everyone who turns up on the dorrstep with a suitcase and a hand out. Middle ground people, middle ground.
This. The article states it itself, cheapo foreign labour not only lowers wages needlessly it makes it difficult for our own low skilled labour pool to find work, which contributes to a situation where a sizeable segment of the population do nothing but sap off the economy through welfare and can lead to riots.
Middle ground, We don't need to be Fortress Britain, we just need to have an entry list. Britain is like a nice nightclub, everyone wants in because its great, but the doorman isn't going to let any old riff-raff in.
If you got skills that can pay the bills, the UK should gladly take you, for everyone else there is Mastercard. I kid, I mean there is go-back-to-your-country-and-try-and-fix-it.
Let East Asia take all the low skilled migrant labour, I'm sure there is going to be a huge bum-rush to be exploited and treated like trash by Chinese employers who see them as less than human.
Original post by Tommyjw
/yawn
Don't need any of your idiotic trolling. Cold hard facts state the country benefits from it. That's all that needs to be said. I don't really care about your idiotic stereotypical generalizations that you call views.
Don't need any of your idiotic trolling. Cold hard facts state the country benefits from it. That's all that needs to be said. I don't really care about your idiotic stereotypical generalizations that you call views.
FYI resorting to silly name calling means you don't have a position. If you can't argue against someone else's points, then be a man and concede defeat.
Original post by almasy
Hm lets see.
a load of them are on the dole - we lose money
they get paid less - less income tax from jobs they steal we lose money
a lot of them don't even pay tax - we lose even more money
each of them working is another of us on the dole as they steal our jobs - we lose money.
a lot are here to send money back to their families - no VAT on what that is spent on we lose money.
each of us forced into the dole isn't paying tax - we lose money
So, they give us no actual profit, but theirs lots of deficit, exactly how is that not costing us?
a load of them are on the dole - we lose money
they get paid less - less income tax from jobs they steal we lose money
a lot of them don't even pay tax - we lose even more money
each of them working is another of us on the dole as they steal our jobs - we lose money.
a lot are here to send money back to their families - no VAT on what that is spent on we lose money.
each of us forced into the dole isn't paying tax - we lose money
So, they give us no actual profit, but theirs lots of deficit, exactly how is that not costing us?
Those points aside or not, the fact is there is absolutely no reason to keep accepting migrants/asylum seekers just for the sake of it.
I'm not a Daily Mail reader, I'm not a xenophobe but even I recognise that a country's first priority is itself and its own people.
We're in an economic downturn, millions out of employment, we had riots, pointless foreign military expenditures, savage cuts that are strangling Britain to death yet we blow countless millions on foreign aid, and we're still too scared to come down hard on illegal immigration/economic migrancy and false asylum cases.
This idea that any discussion on restricting damaging levels/kinds of immigration and migration boils down to people wanting 'rid of 'dem darkies hurp hurp' needs to stop.
Fact is wealth isn't an endless commodity and we need to protect our social and economic cohesion.
We're not the United States, we don't have some mythological awe of immigration, we shouldn't feel held hostage to accepting anyone and everyone who turns up on our doorstep just because it might make people a little grumpy/sad to hear the unfortunate truth that the UK can't afford the money or space to take everyone.
(edited 12 years ago)
I agree. The best, the brightest, the entrepreneurs etc. should not be made to feel like they are either scroungers on our system or taking British people's jobs etc. like the daily mail makes them out to be. I think it should be based on a points system similar to Australia, but then, this won't help this refugees, and we can't control the EU citizens in the same way (and as someone who likes working summers abroad, I am glad about this).
But I do think, the UK especially, needs to be a bit more careful. Yes, there are British people without jobs, but hey not only are we a capitalist country, we are also a meritocracy, so I disagree (especially due to the meritocracy). But also, due to the fees increase, the number of students from the UK going to study abroad is on the increase, and I bet anything that some of those will not return to the UK after graduating but stay abroad and search for work there. Although graduates are not the only intelligent people around, they do make up a great deal of our skilled workforce. I do believe that the UK will undergo a brain drain, even if it's just a small one.
But I do think, the UK especially, needs to be a bit more careful. Yes, there are British people without jobs, but hey not only are we a capitalist country, we are also a meritocracy, so I disagree (especially due to the meritocracy). But also, due to the fees increase, the number of students from the UK going to study abroad is on the increase, and I bet anything that some of those will not return to the UK after graduating but stay abroad and search for work there. Although graduates are not the only intelligent people around, they do make up a great deal of our skilled workforce. I do believe that the UK will undergo a brain drain, even if it's just a small one.
In short, we need skilled, educated immigrants. We certainly shouldn't open the doors to just anyone.
Original post by Abir Ishtiaq
Doesn't matter where the migrants come from, as long as they have the skills to get the job done. Personally, I'd like a higher Muslim population in London, not for a religious cause, but only because I'd love to see a halal McDonalds in London. Was at Bahrain airport the other month while switching flights, and had a Big Mac there at the halal McDonalds; the taste was bang on.
Halal mcdonalds will not happen, as all meat in the UK is stunned
Original post by Tommyjw
And where did you read this nonsense?
'Immigration' as a whole is beneficial for the economy and still gives us money however, yes, it is getting out of hand. But to say that with immigration we are LOSING billions is ridiculous.
'Immigration' as a whole is beneficial for the economy and still gives us money however, yes, it is getting out of hand. But to say that with immigration we are LOSING billions is ridiculous.
A report a few years ago from the house of lords determined that immigration had not lead to much in the way of economic benefits, contrary to new-labour's mantra and actually in terms of the higher level of crime had been detrimental to this nation.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1085759/Economic-benefits-mass-immigration-close-zero--Lords-told.html
Or if you don't like the Mail
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1583500/Limit-immigration-warns-House-of-Lords.html
(edited 12 years ago)
I would say that only EU migrants and skilled workers/those in demand should be allowed in(and Ghurkas/other soldiers who have fought for this country). Anybody else, no.
This article fails in that it does not address core issues such as quality of life. It says statements such as "better for the economy" but doesn't state what measure of better that is.
I'm a believer that GDP per capita (aka the income of each person) is the crucial indicator of how "good" an economy is. The current UK GDP per capita is $35,000. If a person immigrates to the UK, but contributes less than $35,000 to the economy, GDP per capita will fall. Only a fraction of immigrants will contribute more than $35,000 to the economy - thus large scale immigration will cause a massive drop in the quality of life for the UK.
Indeed, Canada has the same GDP as India - the only difference is the number of people who live there. India then patently has a massively lower quality of life than Canada, due to the difference in population - and indeed, this is true in reality.
I'm a believer that GDP per capita (aka the income of each person) is the crucial indicator of how "good" an economy is. The current UK GDP per capita is $35,000. If a person immigrates to the UK, but contributes less than $35,000 to the economy, GDP per capita will fall. Only a fraction of immigrants will contribute more than $35,000 to the economy - thus large scale immigration will cause a massive drop in the quality of life for the UK.
Indeed, Canada has the same GDP as India - the only difference is the number of people who live there. India then patently has a massively lower quality of life than Canada, due to the difference in population - and indeed, this is true in reality.
(edited 12 years ago)
Original post by SpiritedAway
I agree. The best, the brightest, the entrepreneurs etc. should not be made to feel like they are either scroungers on our system or taking British people's jobs etc. like the daily mail makes them out to be. I think it should be based on a points system similar to Australia, but then, this won't help this refugees, and we can't control the EU citizens in the same way (and as someone who likes working summers abroad, I am glad about this).
The last government used a points based system based on the Australia system
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/7269790.stm
Original post by SpiritedAway
But I do think, the UK especially, needs to be a bit more careful. Yes, there are British people without jobs, but hey not only are we a capitalist country, we are also a meritocracy, so I disagree (especially due to the meritocracy). But also, due to the fees increase, the number of students from the UK going to study abroad is on the increase, and I bet anything that some of those will not return to the UK after graduating but stay abroad and search for work there. Although graduates are not the only intelligent people around, they do make up a great deal of our skilled workforce. I do believe that the UK will undergo a brain drain, even if it's just a small one.
But I do think, the UK especially, needs to be a bit more careful. Yes, there are British people without jobs, but hey not only are we a capitalist country, we are also a meritocracy, so I disagree (especially due to the meritocracy). But also, due to the fees increase, the number of students from the UK going to study abroad is on the increase, and I bet anything that some of those will not return to the UK after graduating but stay abroad and search for work there. Although graduates are not the only intelligent people around, they do make up a great deal of our skilled workforce. I do believe that the UK will undergo a brain drain, even if it's just a small one.
What countries do you think these UK graduates will go to where they will
1) be able to find jobs
2) be able to get a work permit
3) not be on much lower salaries than the equivalent in the UK
Original post by MagicNMedicine
http://www.economist.com/node/21526893?fsrc=scn/fb/wl/ar/letthemcome
Article in this week's Economist warning that if the West does not take a more open policy to migrants it faces losing them in the face of competition from Asia.
A couple of salient points from the article.
No doubt this will not be what the Daily Mail audience want to hear!
Article in this week's Economist warning that if the West does not take a more open policy to migrants it faces losing them in the face of competition from Asia.
A couple of salient points from the article.
No doubt this will not be what the Daily Mail audience want to hear!
More labour is not conductive to economic health when you already have an excess of labour.
This is the kind of analysis I have come to expect from the idealogically motivated but economic illiterate propaganda device 'The Economist'. It masquerades as a voice of reason and intellect, yet it suggests that economies with excessive labour supply (expensive labour as well because of welfare) should import even more labour.
Most western factories are based in Asia, more migrants to where our factories are rather than where our welfare bills are - makes the most sense.
As someone else once said, "Only a PhD could believe something so stupid".
(edited 12 years ago)
Original post by Abir Ishtiaq
Personally, I'd like a higher Muslim population in London, not for a religious cause, but only because I'd love to see a halal McDonalds in London. Was at Bahrain airport the other month while switching flights, and had a Big Mac there at the halal McDonalds; the taste was bang on.
McDonalds have already trialled it in Southall and concluded it wasn't financially viable because business at that store dropped by over 60%. It ain't gonna happen.
Original post by MagicNMedicine
The last government used a points based system based on the Australia system
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/7269790.stm
What countries do you think these UK graduates will go to where they will
1) be able to find jobs
2) be able to get a work permit
3) not be on much lower salaries than the equivalent in the UK
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/7269790.stm
What countries do you think these UK graduates will go to where they will
1) be able to find jobs
2) be able to get a work permit
3) not be on much lower salaries than the equivalent in the UK
The rest of Europe. In most EU countries, salaries tend to be much higher than in England, but things such as rent is just a fraction of what we pay here. Standard of living is also much better than the UK in many other EU countries. I know quite a few people who are applying to the netherlands for uni for 2012 and one who's applying to a nordic country as many courses are offered in English. It gives them several years to learn the language, but there are still many jobs where the tongue of the country is not relevant
It's a particular type of immigration that causes economies to be successful. Bringing in skilled foreign workers to compensate for the shortage of national workers in a particular field will benefit the economy. Bringing in unskilled foreign workers to increase competition in the low-paid jobs market will also benefit the economy. As long as the immigrants are doing jobs that need doing, and paying a fair rate of tax, it's all good.
The problems start if immigrants come to this country and refuse to work, while continuing to be a drain on the country's resources. They take, but do not give - out of choice rather than out of necessity. But then again, this problem doesn't just apply to immigrants, does it? There are plenty of British people that do the same thing. I think the main error is that we actually seem to incentivise this sort of lifestyle though.
The problems start if immigrants come to this country and refuse to work, while continuing to be a drain on the country's resources. They take, but do not give - out of choice rather than out of necessity. But then again, this problem doesn't just apply to immigrants, does it? There are plenty of British people that do the same thing. I think the main error is that we actually seem to incentivise this sort of lifestyle though.
(edited 12 years ago)
Original post by Pax Amerifauna
Yeah, and the USSR and Maoist China didn't exist.
Hmm? Wouldn't the Post WWII years have freed up large numbers of former GIs to man these jobs and start families? The US didn't change our immigration policy till the mid 60's when our economy began to tank, did the UK really start importing unskilled workers right after WWII?
Hmm? Wouldn't the Post WWII years have freed up large numbers of former GIs to man these jobs and start families? The US didn't change our immigration policy till the mid 60's when our economy began to tank, did the UK really start importing unskilled workers right after WWII?
look it up..... america promised japan protection which meant japan spent zilch on military expenditure when other countries rebuilding after ww2 had so alocate masses of their budget on defence.... the decisive factor why japan in a relatively short space of time developed a strong economy and world leader in electronics and automobile industry.
yes, the UK, needed to rebuild the country after ww2.... immigration was allowed from the commonwealth so that wasn't really issue as there no restrictions on movement and work. I think this stopped in the early 60s...
(edited 12 years ago)
Original post by tazarooni89
It's a particular type of immigration that causes economies to be successful. Bringing in skilled foreign workers to compensate for the shortage of national workers in a particular field will benefit the economy. Bringing in unskilled foreign workers to increase competition in the low-paid jobs market will also benefit the economy. As long as the immigrants are doing jobs that need doing, and paying a fair rate of tax, it's all good.
The problems start if immigrants come to this country and refuse to work, while continuing to be a drain on the country's resources. They take, but do not give - out of choice rather than out of necessity. But then again, this problem doesn't just apply to immigrants, does it? There are plenty of British people that do the same thing. I think the main error is that we actually seem to incentivise this sort of lifestyle though.
The problems start if immigrants come to this country and refuse to work, while continuing to be a drain on the country's resources. They take, but do not give - out of choice rather than out of necessity. But then again, this problem doesn't just apply to immigrants, does it? There are plenty of British people that do the same thing. I think the main error is that we actually seem to incentivise this sort of lifestyle though.
I would say that most immigrants who come here want to work, but due to policy have restrictions placed on them... the major issue is the indigenous workers who aren't willing to work for the minimum wage and then blame hard-working immigrants who have pride and graft for the bread. This lazy and whiny attitude of these people really pisses me off.
The whole benefit culture/unwilling to work attitude of immigrants is something which the media like to push and so feed the views of such indigenous people..
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