EU President says it's time for the UK to leave the EU & rejects any treaty reform

EU Commission President Juncker has compared the UK-EU relationship to a doomed romance & said it is time to get a divorce and for the UK to leave the EU. He has outright rejected any treaty reform & has said the EU is not going to change crushing David Cameron's attempt at a renegotiation

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/eu/11353914/Jean-Claude-Juncker-compares-British-membership-of-EU-to-doomed-romance.html

Is it time to leave?

Reply 1

MatureStudent36

5

One of the most corrupt politicians in Europe and the man responsible for some of the most prolific tax avoidance legislation is annoyed with us?

Reply 2

james22

16

Original post by ReligionIsPoison

The EU is a fascist non democratic dictatorship and anyone who supports membership of the EU should be disgusted with themselves

I don't think you know the meaning of those words, as the EU is clearly none of them. It has little similarity with a fascist political ideology, it is democratic (we vote on it) and it isn't controlled by just 1 person (so not a dictatorship).

Reply 3

Blutooth

16

Original post by james22

I don't think you know the meaning of those words, as the EU is clearly none of them. It has little similarity with a fascist political ideology, it is democratic (we vote on it) and it isn't controlled by just 1 person (so not a dictatorship).

How can the EU be democratic when the European Commission is a permanent unelected body of 17 people appointed by national Governments, which is responsible for EU law that passes into british law. In 25 years the EU has issued 23,000 directives and regulations into UK law - a figure greater than the total number of Acts passed by Parliament in the whole of its history! There are around 650 new EU laws each year using Statutory Instruments to bypass our UK Parliament. The European parliament is directly elected, but only has the power to advise/ consult the commission- which makes it seem as though the EU is democratic.

Eu may not be fascist but it can be disgusting. The Common Agricultural policy, which is effectively a tariff on poor starving third world farmers is absolutely abhorrent.
The fact that we are dictated what to do: that we must open our borders to EU immigrants; that we must pay for incredibly socialist policies in France and the French 30-hour week; that we must sit down and shut up at the negotiating table rather than make our own trade-agreements is intolerant and certainly authoritarian- borderline fascist in my opinion.
Stop living in your dream world.

(edited 9 years ago)

Reply 4

tengentoppa

18

Original post by ReligionIsPoison

The EU president rules without being put in power by EU citizens voting that you could argue is a dictatorship. Also the commission is not elected by the people so it is not democratic. This is the commission that makes Eu legislation.

There is a significant democratic deficit in the EU

The prime minister rules without being put in power by British citizens voting. The citizens vote for a party and that party elects a leader.

Similarly in the EU, we vote in the European Elections and the head of the EU commission is the one who is backed by the majority party in the parliament, that is to say the EPP, and our leaders. The process is no less democratic than the UK one.

The European commission is the EU civil service, so it makes sense that it isn't elected. No civil service is. The commission does not by itself create legislation, it proposes it and it then has to be approved by both the Council and the parliament, both of whom we elect.

Original post by Blutooth

How can the EU be democratic when the European Commission is a permanent unelected body of 17 people appointed by national Governments, which is responsible for EU law that passes into british law.

That's how a civil service works.

Original post by Blutooth

The European parliament is directly elected, but only has the power to advise/ consult the commission- which makes it seem as though the EU is democratic.

That's not true, since the Lisbon treaty the parliament has greater powers. The commission can do little without the approval and backing of the parliament.

Original post by Blutooth

that we must pay for incredibly socialist policies in France and the French 30-hour week

There is no such thing, and Macron is taking steps to get rid of the 35 hour week.

Original post by Blutooth

that we must pay for incredibly socialist policies in France and the French 30-hour week; that we must sit down and shut up at the negotiating table rather than make our own trade-agreements is intolerant and certainly authoritarian- borderline fascist in my opinion.
Stop living in your dream world.

There is nothing intolerant (maybe you mean intolerable?), authoritarian or fascist about complying with the rules of a group that we agreed to join in a referendum and that we have repeatedly agreed to stay in by voting for pro-EU parties.

Reply 5

tengentoppa

18

Original post by ReligionIsPoison

RUBBISH, British people do not vote for a party and then they elect a leader. The Party elects a leader and THEN the British people vote for that leader

Juncker had always been backed for the job, both by the EPP and by national leaders.

Not that I see how the appointment of a civil servant is of much concern to the British electorate.

Reply 6

zippity.doodah

3

Original post by james22

I don't think you know the meaning of those words, as the EU is clearly none of them. It has little similarity with a fascist political ideology, it is democratic (we vote on it) and it isn't controlled by just 1 person (so not a dictatorship).

I disagree with both you. it's not "fascist" in the sense of ultra-nationalist or militaristic authoritarianism (the typical form of fascism) seeing as it has neither a military or an agenda of nationalism - it fact it probably hates the understanding of nationhood seeing as it wants to break that idea more and more apart with the further rise of EU integrations (borosso once even said that nation states in a globalised world were impossible). also, it's *really* not democratic - what country, what "democratic" country (understood in a contemporary sense), elects a (very) weak parliament but doesn't elect its (strong) government/president or (weak but stronger than the first EU chamber) second chamber? probably none. so in my opinion, it is a very undemocratic institution, but it's not quite as authoritarian to suggest that it is a fascist one (although those at the top seem to say some very worryingly authoritarian things sometimes)

(edited 9 years ago)

Reply 7

Rakas21

21

Original post by Ace123

EU Commission President Juncker has compared the UK-EU relationship to a doomed romance & said it is time to get a divorce and for the UK to leave the EU. He has outright rejected any treaty reform & has said the EU is not going to change crushing David Cameron's attempt at a renegotiation

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/eu/11353914/Jean-Claude-Juncker-compares-British-membership-of-EU-to-doomed-romance.html

Is it time to leave?

Well those are certainly interesting comments though they have a political angle in trying to rile the pro-EU vote against Cameron.

He only rejects free movement reform, he says he'll listen to the rest.

Original post by ReligionIsPoison

RUBBISH, British people do not vote for a party and then they elect a leader. The Party elects a leader and THEN the British people vote for that leader

We are not presidential, unless you live in Oxfordshire you have categorically never voted for or against David Cameron. The parties can change their leader during parliament as much as they like and you'd never get a say.

Excellent.

It amuses me how all this time that Cameron thought he could actually renegotiate the rules that govern the EU. Youre not going to change what makes the EU the EU and not with the barr support he had for it. And now Cameron is going to be put into a tight spot. He didnt want to leave the EU but hes kind of being forced to give the public the vote if he windls because of UKIP(who are practically dead in the water, evidence is stacking up against them showing how bad they really are). My prediction for who is going to win the election will be EITHER a Labour/Lib coalition or a Con/Lib coalition again if the conservatives dont get their majority but have a good lead.

Reply 10

RayApparently

21

Original post by ReligionIsPoison

RUBBISH, British people do not vote for a party and then they elect a leader. The Party elects a leader and THEN the British people vote for that leader

inb4 Gordon Brown, James Callaghan, Alec Douglas-Home and John Major.

Reply 11

Rakas21

21

Original post by ReligionIsPoison

But we do get a say as we can remove that leader at the next general election, can we not?

You could stop him being PM if you booted your Tory MP out but he's leader until his party boots him out or the people of his constituency.

Reply 12

RayApparently

21

Original post by ReligionIsPoison

inb4 you read my subsequent posts

Original post by Rakas21

You could stop him being PM if you booted your Tory MP out but he's leader until his party boots him out or the people of his constituency.

Aye, the majority of people not voting for them has never stopped a Prime Minister.

Reply 13

musdycool

1

As an EU-citizen student who is considering to study in UK, I would not prefer such a "divorce". But definitely, UK can simply afford it. UK government never liked EU idea or Euro stuff and too many immigrants. They can leave EU in any time.

Reply 14

Ace123

OP

2

Original post by Rakas21

Well those are certainly interesting comments though they have a political angle in trying to rile the pro-EU vote against Cameron.

He only rejects free movement reform, he says he'll listen to the rest.

We are not presidential, unless you live in Oxfordshire you have categorically never voted for or against David Cameron. The parties can change their leader during parliament as much as they like and you'd never get a say.

The trouble is he rejects treaty reform and other key issues such as fishing, CAP EU budget rules would need treaty reform. Clearly it will never happen and at last David Cameron's renegotiation has been exposed as a lie and a farce

Reply 15

Rakas21

21

Original post by Ace123

The trouble is he rejects treaty reform and other key issues such as fishing, CAP EU budget rules would need treaty reform. Clearly it will never happen and at last David Cameron's renegotiation has been exposed as a lie and a farce

When has he rejected CAP and EU budget reform? You sure that wasn't Hollande?

Well i expect him to get a small bone which will please those who just want something symbolic (i feel most people in the UK either don't know or don't care). I doubt Ukip and the right of the Tories could ever be satisfied though.

Still undecided myself.

Reply 16

Ace123

OP

2

Original post by Rakas21

When has he rejected CAP and EU budget reform? You sure that wasn't Hollande?

Well i expect him to get a small bone which will please those who just want something symbolic (i feel most people in the UK either don't know or don't care). I doubt Ukip and the right of the Tories could ever be satisfied though.

Still undecided myself.

The EU Commission President as well as other EU Commissioners and national leader e.g. of France & Germany have said they will not agree to treaty reform, this rules out any meaningful reform whatsoever as important areas e.g. immigration, CAP, fishing rights etc are all based on the EU treaties. Therefore none of those areas are going to be reformed it simply isn't going to hapoen. As you suggest Davd Cameron will only get symbolic reform perhaps a couple of laws changed or benefits more restricted but big issues that cause the most problems e.g. uncontrolled immigration numbers, supporting EU farms, opening up UK fishing waters to all EU nations are not going to change

Reply 17

Messiah Complex

3

Original post by james22

I don't think you know the meaning of those words, as the EU is clearly none of them. It has little similarity with a fascist political ideology, it is democratic (we vote on it) and it isn't controlled by just 1 person (so not a dictatorship).

Yeah, so democratic that it completely ignores the requests of its member states: Cough Ireland, Cough Greece. The EU is a shamocracy.

Reply 18

limetang

19

Of course it's democratic it just shows you the ugly side of democracy. That is, within a democracy of 500 million people having one body make the amount of laws that the EU does for the variety of people it represents means that huge swathes of people (nations In some cases) find themselves getting shafted by their democratically elected leaders.