Court stops circumcision.

Original post by TheArtofProtest

Dealing in ridiculous hypotheticals is a futile exercise.

Dealing in hypotheticals is how people with critical faculties draw out the logical implications of their positions.

Reply 401

Kvothe the Arcane

Original post by TheArtofProtest

Dealing in ridiculous hypotheticals is a futile exercise.

So you recognise that such decisions are not tolerable - why?

Original post by TheArtofProtest

If the parents believe it to be, then I would support such a decision.

Thank you for your detailed response. But I feel that much of what you said is irrelevant. You might feel that the state interfere's too much in the affairs of families however this does not negate the fact that it is sometimes necessary.

Do you view the procedure of circumcision as being comparable to the inconsequential parental decision of cutting a child's hair off?

Original post by TSRUsername99

Ooh, like those Jehovahs's Witnesses.

I was one of those and I recall feeling guilty that I received a blood transfusion as an infant :facepalm:

.

(edited 8 years ago)

Reply 402

Original post by TSRUsername99

Ooh, like those Jehovahs's Witnesses.

Judge rules Jehovah’s Witness boy can receive blood transfusion

Indeed. That's a particularly good example because the parents weren't under any illusions about the consequences of refusing the treatment.

Reply 403

Original post by TheArtofProtest

There is an argument to say that if we all just sat and dealt in hypotheticals instead of actually getting up do things, then the world would be in a much better position.

Of course, sexual intercourse would also be hypothetical which may be problematic.

You're literally sat at a computer having a pointless argument on the internet at this very moment. If you're going to do that, you may as well do it properly.

I suggest that the reason why you don't want to address any such hypotheticals is that doing so would show your position to be unsustainable. Either way, this is like arguing with a child, so I won't be continuing.

Reply 404

Original post by TheArtofProtest

. I believe that parents, if left unhindered, would prepare a child for life and how to cope with the various hurdles that life would throw at them.

By chopping off part of the penis.

Reply 405

Kvothe the Arcane

Original post by TheArtofProtest

Entertaining such ideas is a waste of time and benefits no-one.

Why? I suspect you view such actions as unnecessary and perhaps barbaric. Where then, do you draw such a line?

I personally think that when it comes to medical matters, parental autonomy only extends to procedures which are necessary or would massively improve the child's quality of life.

Necessary to churn out a monolithic group of people?

Necessary in order to meet the child's welfare needs.

Do I think that parents reserve the right to circumcise their children? Of course.

Do you think parents can have any medical procedure done on their children? You say above that the exams TP provided are extreme but it's my view that chopping off bits off flesh unnecessarily is also extreme.

(edited 8 years ago)

Reply 406

Original post by TheArtofProtest

You can't seem to distinguish between engaging with a person's position, and engaging with a person's ridiculous hypotheticals.
.

It is ridiculous because circumcision is ridiculous.

Obviously, you wouldn't apply the same logic to any other body part.

Reply 407

Original post by TheArtofProtest

Now, you may feel that the extra 0.1mm that it adds to your penis length may be necessary but for others looking at the bigger picture, it is an insignificant amount.

Well, if it is so insignificant, then allow the child to choose when they are older and they can weigh the pros and cons themselves.

Obviously, the consequences of a mistake are significant, but you would have to ignore that.

Reply 408

Original post by TheArtofProtest

I am not quite sure what is so funny. You are laughing at boys that have died as a result of botched procedures.

Reply 409

Original post by TheArtofProtest

Perhaps lopping off foreskin gives one a "funny bone"?

Well, you would have to laugh. You have no argument against it.

You are no different to those that argue that FGM is ok as long as only a small aprt of clitoris is removed.

Reply 410

Original post by TheArtofProtest

We mutilate our bodies, both internally and externally, in many different ways yet circumcision seems to be the only procedure which society wants to grab autonomy from the parents.

In the absence of any clear rules and an arbitrary response to such topics, I support the parent's autonomy to look after the best interests of their child/ren.

It is not in the best interest of the child to have a procedure that can introduce infections when it confers little medical benefit.

You cannot do it with other procedures. Therefore, there is no reason to do it with this when it can wait till the child is older.

Reply 411

Original post by TheArtofProtest

Better to have no argument than an argument stinking of fallacies.

Just using your argument.

" Now, you may feel that the extra 0.1mm that it adds to your clitoral length may be necessary but for others looking at the bigger picture, it is an insignificant amount. "

Reply 412

cherryred90s

Original post by TheArtofProtest

If you don't want your child to be circumcised, then I'm not going to tell you that you must circumcise him because I respect the fact that as a parent, you would do what is in the best interests of your own child.

I'd like you to respect my right to determine what is in the best interests of my child, until he comes of such a age where he is able to exercise his own independent thought.

PRSOM

Reply 413

Original post by TheArtofProtest

And who is in a better position to determine what is best for the child? The parents, or the state?

Well, in the case of medical treatment, the opinions of those who have actually studied medicine would seem to be somewhat relevant.

You, by the way, are the one who is dealing purely in the abstract here. You will not address the particular case, let alone any concrete (and apposite) hypotheticals. You talk purely in generalities about parents making the best decisions for their children in the context of a manifestly unnecessary and detrimental surgical intervention.

You talk about parental autonomy and yet are unable to recognise any limits to that principle, or even try to ascertain where they may lie. You snicker over the disastrous consequences of a barbarous procedure for which you do not care to offer any coherent defence.

I can only assume that this is wilful blindness, to allow you to continue to support a perverse part of your culture. Either that or real, deep idiocy. There is no third option.

Reply 414

Original post by TheArtofProtest

Even though my family are not religious (or "cultural" :wink:

in any way, it has been tradition within our social circle that the boy is always cut, even if the lower classes do not engage in such acts.

And I'm sure you're struggling to come to terms with the fact that your parents took a butcher's knife to your genitalia for no reason whatsoever. And, look, they may well be decent and perhaps even generally sensible people. We needn't ostracise those who used to engage in prescientific practices. It just has to stop.

Reply 415

Original post by TheArtofProtest

there is no difference between a circumcised penis and a non-circumcised one.

Is it ****.

Reply 416

Original post by TheArtofProtest

Although in text, when you start cutting things off, it starts to lose meaning,

Your original post is still there, I'm just trying to make it nice and clear which part i'm referring to. :wink:

Original post by TheArtofProtest

the same cannot be said for a circumcised penis.

Any uncircumcised men know this to be false, unfortunately for you your parents didn't allow you to discover this for yourself.

(edited 8 years ago)

Reply 417

Original post by TheArtofProtest

I don't really mind. As long as it does what it's supposed to do, I'm happy.

Well as long as you're not deluding yourself into believing you haven't lost anything. :thumbsup:

Reply 418

Original post by TheArtofProtest

Upset to see that you slagging off our world's best and brightest as "deluded".

Ah well, i guess we're all capable of lying to ourselves

Reply 419

Rorschach II