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Reply 3980
helloo everyone, I am writing an essay on a chap with pancreatitis and basically have to explain the drugs he's on and why. He was given oral codeine and oramorph in a&e, does anyone know why these two drugs were combined? He had severe pain so Im basically wondering (and need to explain in my essay) why codeine was used as well as morphine. Can anyone help?

Thanks :smile:
I'm becoming increasingly irritated by scientists and their inability to write at a consistent detail level. Maybe I'm just grumpy of late, but I've noticed it in papers and textbooks. Waffle on for ages about the obvious bit that everyone gets and rush over the more complicated, esoteric sections as though they're scared to explain.

I'm currently grappling with a paper on the mouse model I'll be using as the basis of my project this year. The authors clearly define things like autoimmunity and waffle on for ages making it easily accessible to a non-expert. Then they go on a few sentences later to write about the development of this line of mice in jargon that you'd only know if you were properly involved in that area, essentially eradicating that accessibility and making it difficult for newbies. Why spend so much time writing accessibility-promoting waffle only to follow it with annoying esotericism?

There needs to be some kind of brevity and clarity movement in science.

/rant

EDIT:

And a freedom of information movement (this does seem to be something that's included in the zeitgeist though, thankfully). What's the point of having published science that is inaccessible to entire institutions of students?
(edited 11 years ago)
Original post by Kinkerz
I'm becoming increasingly irritated by scientists and their inability to write at a consistent detail level. Maybe I'm just grumpy of late, but I've noticed it in papers and textbooks. Waffle on for ages about the obvious bit that everyone gets and rush over the more complicated, esoteric sections as though they're scared to explain.

I'm currently grappling with a paper on the mouse model I'll be using as the basis of my project this year. The authors clearly define things like autoimmunity and waffle on for ages making it easily accessible to a non-expert. Then they go on a few sentences later to write about the development of this line of mice in jargon that you'd only know if you were properly involved in that area, essentially eradicating that accessibility and making it difficult for newbies. Why spend so much time writing accessibility-promoting waffle only to follow it with annoying esotericism?

There needs to be some kind of brevity and clarity movement in science.

/rant


I totally get where you're coming from here. Scientists and science students* are probably the worst writers on the planet - reading and analysing journal articles used to be the bane of my life simply because most scientists don't seem capable of writing a) in engaging prose and/or b) without using excessive amounts of jargon and leaving it up to the poor reader to decipher the methodology or discussion, especially when it involved referring to other authors and studies. It's a massive pain and ultimately one of the (many) reasons why I massively prefer medical school to science (where so many of the references used both at BSc and MSc were drawn from journals).


*I was one exception, though I made up for my excellent writing skills with very average lab skills :p:
Original post by Democracy
I totally get where you're coming from here. Scientists and science students* are probably the worst writers on the planet - reading and analysing journal articles used to be the bane of my life simply because most scientists don't seem capable of writing a) in engaging prose and/or b) without using excessive amounts of jargon and leaving it up to the poor reader to decipher the methodology or discussion, especially when it involved referring to other authors and studies. It's a massive pain and ultimately one of the (many) reasons why I massively prefer medical school to science (where so many of the references used both at BSc and MSc were drawn from journals).


*I was one exception, though I made up for my excellent writing skills with very average lab skills :p:

Do you think it's a self-fulfilling prophecy?

Students are encouraged to emulate the way science is written in journals when writing their projects etc. up.

It's as though the acceptable thing is to make the first paragraph/few paragraphs abundantly clear to most people who understand relatively basic theory, after which jargon that only people in the field will understand becomes fair game.

I appreciate the requirement for precise terminology and jargon, but some clarity in the literature is surely possible.

There's a series of textbooks called Primers in Biology and at the bottom of every double-page is a footer containing definitions of all the newly introduced jargon and appropriate references. I use the Immunity one and it's probably my best textbook. In fact, if anyone's interested, the figures in it are available for free here and they're often very nice diagrams.
Original post by Kinkerz
Do you think it's a self-fulfilling prophecy?

Students are encouraged to emulate the way science is written in journals when writing their projects etc. up.


To some extent certainly, however I'd also argue that a lot of it is due to the background of the students themselves: comparatively few science students (except perhaps in psychology/geography) do humanities or social science subjects at A level e.g. history, literature, philosophy etc and since A level sciences don't involve much extended writing (unlike at degree level), there's no opportunity for skills and abilities in writing to develop.

There is an unfortunate culture amongst science students of looking down on arts subjects and occasionally arts students themselves...which tends to make science students forget that in some areas e.g. writing, the arts students definitely have a lot to offer.

It's as though the acceptable thing is to make the first paragraph/few paragraphs abundantly clear to most people who understand relatively basic theory, after which jargon that only people in the field will understand becomes fair game.

I appreciate the requirement for precise terminology and jargon, but some clarity in the literature is surely possible.

There's a series of textbooks called Primers in Biology and at the bottom of every double-page is a footer containing definitions of all the newly introduced jargon and appropriate references. I use the Immunity one and it's probably my best textbook. In fact, if anyone's interested, the figures in it are available for free here and they're often very nice diagrams.


Thanks for the links :biggrin: There are definitely a few gems out there, one textbook I really liked as a science student was Weinberg's The Biology of Cancer. I think it was written in a very engaging and clear manner...unlike say, Kuby's Immunology which was near incomprehensible.

There is a fine line however, textbooks which are too friendly and over-explanatory often end up sacrificing important details e.g. Marieb's Human Anatomy & Physiology, which I think was the recommended anatomy textbook at one point at BL...but which is nigh useless for medical or science students imho.
(edited 11 years ago)
Original post by Democracy
To some extent certainly, however I'd also argue that a lot of it is due to the background of the students themselves: comparatively few science students (except perhaps in psychology/geography) do humanities or social science subjects at A level e.g. history, literature, philosophy etc and since A level sciences don't involve much extended writing (unlike at degree level), there's no opportunity for skills and abilities in writing to develop.

There is an unfortunate culture amongst science students of looking down on arts subjects and occasionally arts students themselves...which tends to make science students forget that in some areas e.g. writing, the arts students definitely have a lot to offer.

Ah, yeah. Fair point. I agree with that. Although I'm not looking for Mark Twain, I just want a touch more clarity!

Thanks for the links :biggrin: There are definitely a few gems out there, one textbook I really liked as a science student was Weinberg's The Biology of Cancer. I think it was written in a very engaging and clear manner...unlike say, Kuby's Immunology which was near incomprehensible.

I currently have Weinberg's on my shelf :wink:

There is a fine line however, textbooks which are too friendly and over-explanatory often end up sacrificing important details e.g. Marieb's Human Anatomy & Physiology, which I think was the recommended anatomy textbook at one point at BL...but which is nigh useless for medical or science students imho.

So true. There's an immunology book by Sompayrac that I think does exactly that (despite the positive reviews). Instead of clear descriptions it just makes things patronising (calling macrophages 'garbage cells' and producing a 'hot dog' analogy for the MHCs, for instance), which doesn't help. Metaphors for the sake of metaphors don't ease explanations.
Original post by Kinkerz
I'm becoming increasingly irritated by scientists and their inability to write at a consistent detail level. Maybe I'm just grumpy of late, but I've noticed it in papers and textbooks. Waffle on for ages about the obvious bit that everyone gets and rush over the more complicated, esoteric sections as though they're scared to explain.

I'm currently grappling with a paper on the mouse model I'll be using as the basis of my project this year. The authors clearly define things like autoimmunity and waffle on for ages making it easily accessible to a non-expert. Then they go on a few sentences later to write about the development of this line of mice in jargon that you'd only know if you were properly involved in that area, essentially eradicating that accessibility and making it difficult for newbies. Why spend so much time writing accessibility-promoting waffle only to follow it with annoying esotericism?

There needs to be some kind of brevity and clarity movement in science.

/rant

EDIT:

And a freedom of information movement (this does seem to be something that's included in the zeitgeist though, thankfully). What's the point of having published science that is inaccessible to entire institutions of students?


I was told that the definition of an expert is 'someone who explains things in such a confused way so as to make you feel the confusion your own fault.'
Original post by Wangers
I was told that the definition of an expert is 'someone who explains things in such a confused way so as to make you feel the confusion your own fault.'

Haha. I think that might hold some truth.
Reply 3988
So, a fortnight into the first clinical rotation...
Number of patients clerked: 2
Number of series of Red Dwarf completed: 7 :colone:



Original post by Democracy
To some extent certainly, however I'd also argue that a lot of it is due to the background of the students themselves: comparatively few science students (except perhaps in psychology/geography) do humanities or social science subjects at A level e.g. history, literature, philosophy etc and since A level sciences don't involve much extended writing (unlike at degree level), there's no opportunity for skills and abilities in writing to develop.

There is an unfortunate culture amongst science students of looking down on arts subjects and occasionally arts students themselves...which tends to make science students forget that in some areas e.g. writing, the arts students definitely have a lot to offer.


You make a very good point, but I think being able to explain science clearly is a very different skill to those honed in humanities subjects. I think the biggest problem that scientific literature suffers from is the lack of empathy for its target audience; either assuming that the readers are already experts in a field, or that they are idiots and therefore incapable of grasping the full details.
Original post by Tech
You make a very good point, but I think being able to explain science clearly is a very different skill to those honed in humanities subjects. I think the biggest problem that scientific literature suffers from is the lack of empathy for its target audience; either assuming that the readers are already experts in a field, or that they are idiots and therefore incapable of grasping the full details.

Exactly, and you get fluctuation between the two within the same article.
Original post by Kinkerz
I'm becoming increasingly irritated by scientists and their inability to write at a consistent detail level. Maybe I'm just grumpy of late, but I've noticed it in papers and textbooks. Waffle on for ages about the obvious bit that everyone gets and rush over the more complicated, esoteric sections as though they're scared to explain.

I'm currently grappling with a paper on the mouse model I'll be using as the basis of my project this year. The authors clearly define things like autoimmunity and waffle on for ages making it easily accessible to a non-expert. Then they go on a few sentences later to write about the development of this line of mice in jargon that you'd only know if you were properly involved in that area, essentially eradicating that accessibility and making it difficult for newbies.
Why spend so much time writing accessibility-promoting waffle only to follow it with annoying esotericism?

There needs to be some kind of brevity and clarity movement in science.

/rant

EDIT:

And a freedom of information movement (this does seem to be something that's included in the zeitgeist though, thankfully). What's the point of having published science that is inaccessible to entire institutions of students?


I was with you for the bits in bold.
Then you started using really big complicated words towards the end of the rant which confused and upset me.

:tongue:
Original post by Jamie
I was with you for the bits in bold.
Then you started using really big complicated words towards the end of the rant which confused and upset me.

:tongue:

Haha :p:

I take your point, but written English complications are easily googled and rectified. A lot of the complications I'm talking about you have to read 8 more papers to grasp.
(edited 11 years ago)
Original post by Wangers
I was told that the definition of an expert is 'someone who explains things in such a confused way so as to make you feel the confusion your own fault.'


by any chance?

I told this quote to a friend and they claimed it was unnecessarily confusing... :frown:
(edited 11 years ago)
Original post by Tech

You make a very good point, but I think being able to explain science clearly is a very different skill to those honed in humanities subjects. I think the biggest problem that scientific literature suffers from is the lack of empathy for its target audience; either assuming that the readers are already experts in a field, or that they are idiots and therefore incapable of grasping the full details.


I agree, I didn't mean that scientists should necessarily be as eloquent or narrative as those in the humanties; clearly an article in a scientific journal shouldn't resemble a philosophy essay, however, certain basic principles of English composition seem to elude many scientists e.g. organisation, clarity, fluency, etc, which make things very frustrating for the reader.

Kinkerz
So true. There's an immunology book by Sompayrac that I think does exactly that (despite the positive reviews). Instead of clear descriptions it just makes things patronising (calling macrophages 'garbage cells' and producing a 'hot dog' analogy for the MHCs, for instance), which doesn't help. Metaphors for the sake of metaphors don't ease explanations.


Ha, yes, Marieb is exactly like this. It's something which I've noticed is far more common in American textbooks tbh :holmes: The Crash Course books are actually a fairly good representation of something which is accessible without totally dumbing things down imho.
Original post by Tyraell
:frown:


Take the name out, please but yes :smile: How're you getting on?
Reply 3995
Was at the Scalpel Undergraduate Conference yesterday. Was awesome. Anyone on here attend? Had a brilliant, brilliant lecture on hand reconstruction and transplantation. I realised halfway through that my mouth was hanging open.
Reply 3996
Third year clinics are boom!
just ordered my stethoscope :biggrin: exciting times!
Hey :smile:thought I would say hi and introduce myself! I have been reading through this thread for awhile (yes stalkerish behaviour :laugh:). I am a foundation year medical student on the new course at Notts A108 course where I transfer to the A100 course after I pass (hopefully :wink: ) this year. Tsr has helped me loads and so have some of you on here back during my Alevels so yerh just a big thanks to everyone :biggrin:.
Original post by laurie:)
just ordered my stethoscope :biggrin: exciting times!


Ahh thats nice, what colour :smile: ?

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