Universities 'fined' for AAB/ABB grades? Confused!
Hi all,
I've heard several versions of this story but was hoping someone could clear it up and tell me if this is correct or not. If universities oversubscribe too many home (EU) students are they fined by the Government? The exception to this is students with AAB grades or higher, uni's can recruit as many of them as they want, and this is changing for 2013 so that students with ABB grades or higher can be recruited without being fined? Is this right? I've heard so many versions! Cheers
I've heard several versions of this story but was hoping someone could clear it up and tell me if this is correct or not. If universities oversubscribe too many home (EU) students are they fined by the Government? The exception to this is students with AAB grades or higher, uni's can recruit as many of them as they want, and this is changing for 2013 so that students with ABB grades or higher can be recruited without being fined? Is this right? I've heard so many versions! Cheers
That is right. This is because in the past, when tax payers money subsidised students degrees, if a uni recruited to many students, they were effectively spending more tax payers money than they were entitled to. Now students pay for their own degrees, uni's can recruit however many they want. This year it was as many achieving AAB or more, next year it will be ABB.
One argument to why they are doing this is to reduce the gap between the perceived 'top' uni's, with eventually their being a two tier university system, with those getting ABB and above, going to comparatively similar universities, and those who don't achieve this going to lesser uni's.
One argument to why they are doing this is to reduce the gap between the perceived 'top' uni's, with eventually their being a two tier university system, with those getting ABB and above, going to comparatively similar universities, and those who don't achieve this going to lesser uni's.
Original post by Meat is Murder
Now students pay for their own degrees,
Much of the cost is still paid by the tax payer
Original post by Meat is Murder
That is right. This is because in the past, when tax payers money subsidised students degrees, if a uni recruited to many students, they were effectively spending more tax payers money than they were entitled to. Now students pay for their own degrees, uni's can recruit however many they want. This year it was as many achieving AAB or more, next year it will be ABB.
One argument to why they are doing this is to reduce the gap between the perceived 'top' uni's, with eventually their being a two tier university system, with those getting ABB and above, going to comparatively similar universities, and those who don't achieve this going to lesser uni's.
One argument to why they are doing this is to reduce the gap between the perceived 'top' uni's, with eventually their being a two tier university system, with those getting ABB and above, going to comparatively similar universities, and those who don't achieve this going to lesser uni's.
So everybody applying this year, around now, for entry in Sep/Oct 2013 will have the threshold of ABB, or more, to be in the this higher tier? And unis can recruit as many ABB+ candidates as they want?
Original post by Dpdr
So everybody applying this year, around now, for entry in Sep/Oct 2013 will have the threshold of ABB, or more, to be in the this higher tier? And unis can recruit as many ABB+ candidates as they want?
Precisely, but that doesn't mean that they will. some uni's this year, such as UCL did expand, but the majority didn't - as far as I am aware - and the uni's asking for AAB this in all likelihood would lower there entry requirements for next. I can't see this policy making a big difference to the student population at the top 30 uni's.
Original post by Meat is Murder
Precisely, but that doesn't mean that they will. some uni's this year, such as UCL did expand, but the majority didn't - as far as I am aware - and the uni's asking for AAB this in all likelihood would lower there entry requirements for next. I can't see this policy making a big difference to the student population at the top 30 uni's.
Sorry if I am being stupid here - but does that mean that top universities are likely to lower their offers to ABB so they can fill more places (after all many university places were left unfilled this year due to the expected number of students not acheiving their predicted grades and the increase in tuition fees)? I think I have got myself a bit confused so apologies if this doesnt make sense!
Original post by gplstudent
Sorry if I am being stupid here - but does that mean that top universities are likely to lower their offers to ABB so they can fill more places (after all many university places were left unfilled this year due to the expected number of students not acheiving their predicted grades and the increase in tuition fees)? I think I have got myself a bit confused so apologies if this doesnt make sense!
If a university wishes to expand, then yes it could give out ABB offers. However, they still have to provide lecturers, library space and (to some extent) accommodation so only some will want or be able to do this.
In clearing this year, Sheffield, for example, had a page up saying something along the lines of 'if you have AAB talk to us and we will see if we can fit you in'.
Original post by gplstudent
Sorry if I am being stupid here - but does that mean that top universities are likely to lower their offers to ABB so they can fill more places (after all many university places were left unfilled this year due to the expected number of students not acheiving their predicted grades and the increase in tuition fees)? I think I have got myself a bit confused so apologies if this doesnt make sense!
Forgive me, I don't think I was clear.
What makes you think there were unfilled spaces? As expected, demand at RG uni's was fierce. If a uni wanted to expand it could however, which saw some uni's give out slightly lower offers.
This is no way implies uni's are lowering their entry requirements. People were under a misapprehension last year with places available in extra; uni's were full, but as uni's could expand, the extras places appeared on extra. Note these were the extra places, not places that weren't filled.
Original post by Meat is Murder
Forgive me, I don't think I was clear.
What makes you think there were unfilled spaces? As expected, demand at RG uni's was fierce. If a uni wanted to expand it could however, which saw some uni's give out slightly lower offers.
This is no way implies uni's are lowering their entry requirements. People were under a misapprehension last year with places available in extra; uni's were full, but as uni's could expand, the extras places appeared on extra. Note these were the extra places, not places that weren't filled.
What makes you think there were unfilled spaces? As expected, demand at RG uni's was fierce. If a uni wanted to expand it could however, which saw some uni's give out slightly lower offers.
This is no way implies uni's are lowering their entry requirements. People were under a misapprehension last year with places available in extra; uni's were full, but as uni's could expand, the extras places appeared on extra. Note these were the extra places, not places that weren't filled.
There were unfilled places at RG universities this year. The government has reduced the number of home and eu places since the peak in I think 2007/8. Additional places were made available to universities charging £7500 or less without a minimum grade requirement. Universities charging more than £7500 (which all RG are) could offer additional places beyond their cap to students achieving AAB. If they recruited students in excess of their allocation with less than AAB, they get a financial penalty. RG were expecting to be able to fill places with AAB students, see http://m.guardian.co.uk/education/2012/oct/25/university-undergraduates-unfilled-places?cat=education&type=article
A university place is a bit like a plane or train, miss the opportunity to sell the place, it could cost you the revenue for the duration of the course.
It would be true to say that RG had no trouble filling the places allocated under the revised home/eu cap, but that cap is set below capacity of RG universities (compared to previous allocations). Changes to international student visas, mean that bridging the gap with students not subject to limits is harder. So a reduced number of AAB students (possible due to more stringent grade boundaries or tougher exams) results in unfilled places and poaching of qualified students. One RG's gain, could have been a loss to another RG university.
This year RG and the over £7500 fees university can recruit ABB students over their allocated number of students. The revised grade boundaries reflect changes to the A level assessment, which mean it will get harder to achieve those grades in a single sitting as required by RG.
(edited 11 years ago)
Original post by Dpdr
So everybody applying this year, around now, for entry in Sep/Oct 2013 will have the threshold of ABB, or more, to be in the this higher tier? And unis can recruit as many ABB+ candidates as they want?
They can't just recruit infinite numbers, though. Remember they're limited by building space, number of lecturers, accommodation and things like that.So even though in theory they can take unlimited students, in practise it wouldn't work.
Original post by edjunkie
There were unfilled places at RG universities this year. The government has reduced the number of home and eu places since the peak in I think 2007/8. .
Perhaps I should have been more specific. Nearly all RG uni's well full in nearly all their courses. Better? I know that applications to Liverpool were down by quite a big margin, but academic courses were as sort after as ever.
My uni, Uni of Nottingham, had a record application year with over 55,000 applicants for 5,000 places.
Original post by Meat is Murder
Perhaps I should have been more specific. Nearly all RG uni's well full in nearly all their courses. Better? I know that applications to Liverpool were down by quite a big margin, but academic courses were as sort after as ever.
My uni, Uni of Nottingham, had a record application year with over 55,000 applicants for 5,000 places.
My uni, Uni of Nottingham, had a record application year with over 55,000 applicants for 5,000 places.
Not really, up until 2007 the number of university places were increasing. The government set a cap on the number of places but did not strictly enforce it with financial penalties. At the start of the recession they even added an additional 20,000 places overall to help reduce the number of 18-24 seeking work. Those places additional places were withdrawn in subsequent years. The capacity that universities had to accommodate students did not disappear overnight, they just were not allowed to fill them with home eu students.
http://m.guardian.co.uk/education/2012/sep/06/university-southampton-fall-undergraduate-intake?cat=education&type=article
This year, the government reduced the number if home/eu places where universities have complete discretion over enterance qualifications over and above matriculation level. After some bun fighting the universities charging more than £7500 in fees were allowed to recruit additional students who had AAB without financial penalty. Why, because the government doesn't like newspaper headlines of bright students being deigned university places. The flip side that universities had to be more conservative with the number of offers they gave out for places within the cap and specify higher grades. That way if the number of qualified students exceeded the cap set that they did not run the risk of financial penalties. Some universities hoped if they under recruited that the AAB students would plug the gap. Most RG were able to fill the core places, but some had relied on recruiting additional students via the AAB route.
On your point of 55000 applications for 5000 places at Nottingham. Not all the 55000 would have been qualified academically, they could have applied to up to 4 other universities, Nottingham was not necessarily first choice of all applicants.
If there had been lots of AAB students who wanted to "upgrade" their university to one of the ones charging more £7500, they wouldn't be lowering the non penalty level down to ABB for 2013. Unfortunately the current government is tweaking so many parts of the education system and student visas at the same time that places will go unfilled but they won't be publicised. The shortfalls won't become apparent until the universities publish their financial results in 2014/5.
(edited 11 years ago)
Original post by Meat is Murder
Perhaps I should have been more specific. Nearly all RG uni's well full in nearly all their courses. Better? I know that applications to Liverpool were down by quite a big margin, but academic courses were as sort after as ever.
My uni, Uni of Nottingham, had a record application year with over 55,000 applicants for 5,000 places.
My uni, Uni of Nottingham, had a record application year with over 55,000 applicants for 5,000 places.
Nottingham was exceptional but its applicant numbers were still only marginally above what they had been 7 or 8 years ago. Applications to many Russell Group universities have been falling for a number of years even in the applications boom.
Southampton was complaining loudly that it was 800 students down which is over £21M of revenue over the next three years with probably very little reduction in overheads. Others have not yet gone public.
Yet others had to do a salvage exercise. Queen Mary were in clearing for law at AAB compared with an original offer of A*AA. UCL were admitting historians who missed their offers of AAA but achieved ACC.
Part of the reason for this was that A level grades fell for the first time for over 20 years but another reason was the make-up of the AAB+ cohort.
AAB+ includes general studies and critical thinking. Therefore some candidates who appeared as AAB+ for the government stats weren't available to universities that didn't count those subjects towards their offers.
More students chose to study abroad this year. The probability is that this contained a lot of AAB+ candidates who didn't get in to where they really wanted to be and chose not to go to where they might have got in, in the UK.
AAB+ includes people who are doing other types of examination than A levels. Apparently whilst the number of AAB+ students with A levels was below expectations, the number who didn't do A levels was above expectations.
Let us say someone does a BTEC in beauty therapy sciences and gets DDD, the highest grade. They are in the AAB+ cohort. That person may not go on to university at all, because they are likely to be quite employable at 18. However, if they do go on to university they aren't going to apply to your university, Nottingham. Nottingham offers them nothing they are likely to want to study. There is a chance that they might go to Trent to read for one of their fashion related degrees, but actually they are much more likely to go and do the BSc in International Spa Management at Derby with its 95% employability stat.
So Derby gains an AAB+ student and Nottingham loses one, but in the real world Nottingham never had a chance of getting that AAB+ student. Not only didn't she have a suitable preparation for a Nottingham university course, but Nottingham doesn't offer anything she was likely to want to study.
When the final statistics are published, expect to see a lot of universities with very vocational courses doing better than predicted for AAB+ students.
Original post by nulli tertius
N
When the final statistics are published, expect to see a lot of universities with very vocational courses doing better than predicted for AAB+ students.
When the final statistics are published, expect to see a lot of universities with very vocational courses doing better than predicted for AAB+ students.
Interesting points indeed, thanks!
Original post by Meat is Murder
Interesting points indeed, thanks!
Thank you all - really interesting and helpful.
So I think I'm getting there... Apologies bear with me I'm being a bit slow on this one!
Universities this year were hoping to fill the new uncapped AAB+ places and therefore recruit more and high performing students with no charge.
However for several reasons there werent as many as expected of this AAb +student pop. So total new student numbers were down? RG unis had alllocated a chunck of their AAB and below places to the new uncapped AAB places and therefore when these weren't filled overall numbers of new students were
down????
Thanks again
Original post by gplstudent
Thank you all - really interesting and helpful.
So I think I'm getting there... Apologies bear with me I'm being a bit slow on this one!
Universities this year were hoping to fill the new uncapped AAB+ places and therefore recruit more and high performing students with no charge.
However for several reasons there werent as many as expected of this AAb +student pop. So total new student numbers were down? RG unis had alllocated a chunck of their AAB and below places to the new uncapped AAB places and therefore when these weren't filled overall numbers of new students were
down????
Thanks again
So I think I'm getting there... Apologies bear with me I'm being a bit slow on this one!
Universities this year were hoping to fill the new uncapped AAB+ places and therefore recruit more and high performing students with no charge.
However for several reasons there werent as many as expected of this AAb +student pop. So total new student numbers were down? RG unis had alllocated a chunck of their AAB and below places to the new uncapped AAB places and therefore when these weren't filled overall numbers of new students were
down????
Thanks again
It was fine until the sentence in bold. RG universities were given fewer ABB and below places than they would normally fill because those places were allotted based on previous years' performances less a claw back in order to give more ABB and below places to universities and colleges that were offering degree places at less than £7500 per year. The expectation was that this wouldn't matter to the RG universities because they would expand their AAB+ provision. When the glut of AAB+ applicants failed to materialise, several RG universities were left between rock and a hard place. They could not fill their places with AAB+ applicants because there were not enough of them and they couldn't fill their places with ABB and below applicants because they had not been given enough controlled places.
Obviously the government were simply putting their fingers in the air last year to see which way the wind blew. It all might work better at ABB+ but I am not so sure. So many different things are changing in HE and a key consideration is subject choice. Universities can cut unpopular subjects fairly easily but it is much harder to open new departments in popular ones.
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