Girls initiating

If a woman does too much chasing, she looks desperate. And from a relationship point-of-view, if I chase him too much I'll never know if he really likes me or if he's going along for the ride. I've never earned respect from guys, approaching dating in that way so I don't any more. I feel valued if I know he has chosen me and gone for the chase.

Secondly, it's not easy being the one who doesn't approach. For instance the guys who put themselves on the line aren't often the ones you're interested in. And a girl has to expend a lot of effort making herself appealing enough to be noticed and chatted up by the opposite sex.

Thirdly once the guy has asked out the girl she has to reciprocate, show appreciation and start suggesting dates. That's where the feedback comes in. Even if women did do the chasing, they would not be in control of the beginning stages of courtship. Men take the lead in that.

Hmm, some interesting points raised Lucia, nice to hear these from a girls perspective. I suppose there is a few things I'd say.

I agree that, it's not an attractive look for a woman to sound desperate, but I suppose if two people are getting alone really well and the man is unsure, there would be no harm in a woman dropping an obvious hint and if that isn't enough, in asking him out?

I think my issue with the second point you make would be that first of all, you said that the type of guys that go for the chance aren't the type girls want...but is that really true? The ones willing to go for it often have the confidence, the dominance, the leadership...all attractive character traits to a woman. So surely they are the type you want?

You say that the girl has to work hard to make herself appeal to the opposite sex, but most woman will eventually get approached, where as if a man doesn't learn to do the approaching, he will end up alone. So the girl is in a much easier position to wait, especially the more attractive (both in terms of looks and personality) girl, she can just bide her time, and eventually pick her boy.

On your last point, some woman don't though. They will say "he never calls me beautiful anymore", "he has lost the spark". Why not the girl tell him "what a great man you are", or do something to put the spark back in, like the woman who gets naked with Sushi on her body from Sex and the City. :colondollar:

Both parties should be equal.

Reply 21

Lucia.

16

Original post by Eboracum

I suppose if two people are getting alone really well and the man is unsure, there would be no harm in a woman dropping an obvious hint and if that isn't enough, in asking him out?

There's no harm of course. But I'd rather the guy was sure about me before asking me out. I think some guys have the attitude that they have to be sure that they want to be in a relationship with her before they ask her out. But I don't think that gets a guy anywhere. If I was a guy, I'd ask her out even if I wasn't sure because what's to lose? If a guy is unsure and a woman making herself VERY available is what swings it for him, then that doesn't seem like a balanced arrangement to me.

Original post by Eboracum

I think my issue with the second point you make would be that first of all, you said that the type of guys that go for the chance aren't the type girls want...but is that really true

It's not that they're the wrong type. It's not that they aren't decent guys. It's just that how can I be sure they're really interested if I'm putting myself out there easy to catch? It won't be popular for me to say so but A LOT of guys will go out with a woman they aren't as interested in when she wants more. They'd happily end up in a fwb scenario or make her into a booty call. It's not a gender thing for me. It's about putting myself in a position to get what I want. If I don't want a relationship, then I'll be more forward with a guy. But if I want a relationship in which I feel valued and not taken for granted, then I don't do the asking out.

Original post by Eboracum

The ones willing to go for it often have the confidence, the dominance, the leadership...all attractive character traits to a woman. So surely they are the type you want?

Guys who do have the confidence and dominance are the type of guys who'll ask a woman out. Therefore you can assume that confident people get what they want, so if they really want you, they will ask you out. Even the shyer guys will do that eventually if they really like you. The guys who can't ask a woman out aren't worth dating (at least for me). They're fine to date if you're prepared to be the man in the relationship, but I'm not.

Original post by Eboracum

You say that the girl has to work hard to make herself appeal to the opposite sex, but most woman will eventually get approached, where as if a man doesn't learn to do the approaching, he will end up alone. So the girl is in a much easier position to wait, especially the more attractive (both in terms of looks and personality) girl, she can just bide her time, and eventually pick her boy.

It's not necessarily true that most women get approached. Even attractive women don't get approached as much as they'd want, and often when they do it's that real creepers go for them. At the same time, it's often the case that the guy you really want isn't the one who's interested in you. So it's quite humbling when you realise that. Taking this point of view actually makes me less picky because I'm more aware of my attractiveness value generally. Even if a woman has more options, it's not necessarily a good thing either.

Original post by Eboracum

On your last point, some woman don't though. They will say "he never calls me beautiful anymore", "he has lost the spark". Why not the girl tell him "what a great man you are", or do something to put the spark back in, like the woman who gets naked with Sushi on her body from Sex and the City. :colondollar:

Both parties should be equal.

Haha yeah. I get what you're saying. But I wouldn't say relationships are or should be "equal". I think it's sharing the load and at certain points one person will make more effort than another. It's how marriages work anyway. Sometimes one person has to shoulder the burden more. What should be equal though is the willingness and dedication of each partner.

Oh and I will compliment guys, but not undeservedly. And if I'm in a relationship and the guys stops making an effort in complimenting me, I will want to dump him. I have never stopped giving compliments in the relationships I've been in before.

Reply 22

Eboracum

18

Original post by Lucia.

There's no harm of course. But I'd rather the guy was sure about me before asking me out. I think some guys have the attitude that they have to be sure that they want to be in a relationship with her before they ask her out. But I don't think that gets a guy anywhere. If I was a guy, I'd ask her out even if I wasn't sure because what's to lose? If a guy is unsure and a woman making herself VERY available is what swings it for him, then that doesn't seem like a balanced arrangement to me.

It's not that they're the wrong type. It's not that they aren't decent guys. It's just that how can I be sure they're really interested if I'm putting myself out there easy to catch? It won't be popular for me to say so but A LOT of guys will go out with a woman they aren't as interested in when she wants more. They'd happily end up in a fwb scenario or make her into a booty call. It's not a gender thing for me. It's about putting myself in a position to get what I want. If I don't want a relationship, then I'll be more forward with a guy. But if I want a relationship in which I feel valued and not taken for granted, then I don't do the asking out.

Guys who do have the confidence and dominance are the type of guys who'll ask a woman out. Therefore you can assume that confident people get what they want, so if they really want you, they will ask you out. Even the shyer guys will do that eventually if they really like you. The guys who can't ask a woman out aren't worth dating (at least for me). They're fine to date if you're prepared to be the man in the relationship, but I'm not.

It's not necessarily true that most women get approached. Even attractive women don't get approached as much as they'd want, and often when they do it's that real creepers go for them. At the same time, it's often the case that the guy you really want isn't the one who's interested in you. So it's quite humbling when you realise that. Taking this point of view actually makes me less picky because I'm more aware of my attractiveness value generally. Even if a woman has more options, it's not necessarily a good thing either.

Haha yeah. I get what you're saying. But I wouldn't say relationships are or should be "equal". I think it's sharing the load and at certain points one person will make more effort than another. It's how marriages work anyway. Sometimes one person has to shoulder the burden more. What should be equal though is the willingness and dedication of each partner.

Oh and I will compliment guys, but not undeservedly. And if I'm in a relationship and the guys stops making an effort in complimenting me, I will want to dump him. I have never stopped giving compliments in the relationships I've been in before.

Very interesting to get your views on this Lucia, Thank you.

So essentially your advice would be that even if you aren't sure, go for it. As it made lead to something good.

And woman want a man with the balls to ask her out, not somebody who hides away because they are scared. I get this.

Just on your point on marriage and sharing the burden, you said that at some points it won't be equal, one has to do more. On which part are you referring? I assume not woman and housework :tongue:

Reply 23

Classical Liberal

19

Original post by Lucia.

Men always say they like it when a woman makes a move...but at the same time they don't like a woman who's easy to get and have more respect for women who aren't. So I might initiate a conversation with a guy but I definitely wouldn't ask a guy out.

Sorry this is complete gibberish.

Men for the most part don't want to date a girl who will **** anything. However no men have a problem with a women trying to court them. I have never ever ever ever ever heard a guy tell me he thought a girl was "desperate" and decided he did not like her because she was initiating with him. It simply does not happen in my experience.

Men on the other hand can easily come off as needy and desperate if they try too hard.

A woman can put a big flashing light on their head saying "I like you" and it would not make them less attractive to a guy. It probably won't make the guy want you the woman if he did not care in the first place but it simply will not hurt. Whilst if a guy effectively does the same thing, the woman finds him less attractive in general.

In my experience if a girl shows an interest in me, I cannot help but look upon her favorably.

Reply 24

dgeorge

12

Original post by Lucia.

There's no harm of course. But I'd rather the guy was sure about me before asking me out. I think some guys have the attitude that they have to be sure that they want to be in a relationship with her before they ask her out. But I don't think that gets a guy anywhere. If I was a guy, I'd ask her out even if I wasn't sure because what's to lose? If a guy is unsure and a woman making herself VERY available is what swings it for him, then that doesn't seem like a balanced arrangement to me.

It's not that they're the wrong type. It's not that they aren't decent guys. It's just that how can I be sure they're really interested if I'm putting myself out there easy to catch? It won't be popular for me to say so but A LOT of guys will go out with a woman they aren't as interested in when she wants more. They'd happily end up in a fwb scenario or make her into a booty call. It's not a gender thing for me. It's about putting myself in a position to get what I want. If I don't want a relationship, then I'll be more forward with a guy. But if I want a relationship in which I feel valued and not taken for granted, then I don't do the asking out.

Guys who do have the confidence and dominance are the type of guys who'll ask a woman out. Therefore you can assume that confident people get what they want, so if they really want you, they will ask you out. Even the shyer guys will do that eventually if they really like you. The guys who can't ask a woman out aren't worth dating (at least for me). They're fine to date if you're prepared to be the man in the relationship, but I'm not.

It's not necessarily true that most women get approached. Even attractive women don't get approached as much as they'd want, and often when they do it's that real creepers go for them. At the same time, it's often the case that the guy you really want isn't the one who's interested in you. So it's quite humbling when you realise that. Taking this point of view actually makes me less picky because I'm more aware of my attractiveness value generally. Even if a woman has more options, it's not necessarily a good thing either.

Haha yeah. I get what you're saying. But I wouldn't say relationships are or should be "equal". I think it's sharing the load and at certain points one person will make more effort than another. It's how marriages work anyway. Sometimes one person has to shoulder the burden more. What should be equal though is the willingness and dedication of each partner.

Oh and I will compliment guys, but not undeservedly. And if I'm in a relationship and the guys stops making an effort in complimenting me, I will want to dump him. I have never stopped giving compliments in the relationships I've been in before.

There's no harm of course. But I'd rather the guy was sure about me before asking me out.

And vice versa, most guys would rather the girl was sure about THEM

It's just that how can I be sure they're really interested if I'm putting myself out there easy to catch?

There's a difference between initiating/making the first move and offering yourself as sex on a platter. If a woman makes the first move most guys will not assume she's easy, it's when she ACTS easy (e.g. having sex without getting some sort of emotional attatchment) that she begins to lose value in some men's eyes.

Reply 25

Journeyzap

OP

11

Lots of interesting points raised here.

I am speaking about initiating in a dating context though - not in a sexual one. I.e. - woman inviting or proposing what would essentially be a first "date", or woman asking for the guy's phonenumber / talking first etc. - basically, with the intentions of building a relationship.

I'm asking all of this actually because I am trying to initiate something with a guy I like, and I can't tell if he sort of likes me but is really shy/not entirely sure, or if he is just being polite and friendly, but is quite disinterested.
Basically, would initiating increase his interest in me, or put me off me, or neither? :smile:

Reply 26

Lucia.

16

I get what you guys are saying. But why should I ask a guy out? Sorry, but that's not my responsibility. If I liked a guy enough, I would. But I also wouldn't be interested in a guy who wouldn't ask me out.

Men do like initiating but only if they are interested in the woman. I'm not prepared to put my dignity out for the wolves.

I mean telling women to initiate is like telling women not to wear make-up 'cause guys say they like it. Yet if a women were to do that, she'd get less attention. Likewise men say they like it when a woman initiates but it actually happened it wouldn't affect their level of interest. If it makes no difference and doesn't put them off or make them more interested, then why do that? Why make that extra effort for a man? I've got better things to do with my spare time then go around chasing after some guy's affections. Who's to say he's anything special?

Reply 27

Jimbo1234

20

The woman to initialize.
Why?
Because it shows confidence. So many girls **** up relationships because they lack confidence and are very insecure. If they have the confidence to approach the guy, then these problems shouldn't really exist.

Reply 28

Lucia.

16

Original post by Jimbo1234

So many girls **** up relationships because they lack confidence and are very insecure. If they have the confidence to approach the guy, then these problems shouldn't really exist.

That's not true. If a woman initiates, and the guy happens to be insecure, then she'll end up in a relationship with a really insecure guy. Both men and women benefit from having a confident partner. I don't have a problem with confidence in approaching guys. I can approach guys. I just choose not to. I don't think it makes a guy think I'm any better than any other girl simply because I approach him and another woman doesn't.

Reply 29

Dark Horse

Alot of hair-splitting over a matter of walking up to someone and talking to them. This is pretty normal, natural behavior and essential for a socialized species. Although people's interpretations as to what a "move" actually is may differ.

Reply 30

Lucia.

16

Original post by Dark Horse

Although people's interpretations as to what a "move" actually is may differ.

That's the thing. I'm not as entitled as I come across to some people. I will always start a conversation with a man I like and flirt with him. I just prefer not to do the asking out.

Reply 31

Dark Horse

Original post by Lucia.

That's the thing. I'm not as entitled as I come across to some people. I will always start a conversation with a man I like and flirt with him. I just prefer not to do the asking out.

Do you ever "drop hints"?

Reply 32

Journeyzap

OP

11

Original post by Lucia.

That's the thing. I'm not as entitled as I come across to some people. I will always start a conversation with a man I like and flirt with him. I just prefer not to do the asking out.

What do you count as "asking out"? :smile:

Is it formalising a relationship, or asking out on a date / asking to meet up.. or even suggesting it or saying you would like to see them?

Reply 33

Lucia.

16

Original post by Dark Horse

Do you ever "drop hints"?

Of course.

Reply 34

Lucia.

16

Original post by Journeyzap

What do you count as "asking out"? :smile:

Is it formalising a relationship, or asking out on a date / asking to meet up.. or even suggesting it or saying you would like to see them?

I count anything that's exclusively hanging out. I don't count inviting someone to spend time with me in a group. And I do ask out, but only after I've seen initial interest from the guy. So say we've been on more than a few dates, then I'll step up and ask him to something myself. Something like that.

Reply 35

ellieHA

14

I'm a girl and almost every time i've initiated something the guy's thought I was too forward and it's put him off

Reply 36

Jimbo1234

20

Original post by Lucia.

That's not true. If a woman initiates, and the guy happens to be insecure, then she'll end up in a relationship with a really insecure guy. Both men and women benefit from having a confident partner. I don't have a problem with confidence in approaching guys. I can approach guys. I just choose not to. I don't think it makes a guy think I'm any better than any other girl simply because I approach him and another woman doesn't.

An insecure guy simply means that he will work harder to stay in the relationship.
An insecure girl however just gives up trying.

Also why don't you approach guys? You claim you could, but if you never have then how do you know? :confused:

Original post by ellieHA

I'm a girl and almost every time i've initiated something the guy's thought I was too forward and it's put him off

Well what type of guy did you approach? :redface:

Somehow I don't think they will have been beacons of masculinity if they had that response.

Reply 37

Profesh

20

I consider it a hallmark of good taste.

Reply 38

cyfer

13

If a girl initiates to me it signals that they are confident and hence interesting.

When I pick up girls, I tend to find that the shy ones (i.e. body language shows they are uncomfortable) are MUCH less fun than the confident ones, since the latter will always be great to have a laugh with.