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I would never abort myself but I respect the fact that I live in a country where people can choose to abort if they wish; it's not illegal. I'm not religious so I don't believe that it's a sin or anything.
His argument is fine it's the same argument everyone has in favour of abortion at that stage the fetus won't have human feelings.

I do however think he shouldn't have made the other comment, it's a little insensitive to people who live with Down syndrome or who have children with it a very poor choice of words to use.
Almost everyone takes this view, but because Richard Dawkins says it, somehow it's the devils work.


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Reply 4
I agree.
Reply 5
I think there's a very fine line. I understand abortion of babies which have no quality of life, those who are just to sick or severely disabled to have a life at all. However, knowing and working with a large number of downs syndrome people has shown me that this is absolutely not the case for them. People with downs syndrome can live fairly independent lives, some have jobs! Admittedly people with downs syndrome have lower life expectancy, higher dementia risk and some other health risks but men have shorter life expectancy than women and are at higher risk of heart attacks... We'd never suggest aborting male babies on those grounds!
That said I do understand why some women or families may feel they arent in a position to cope with a disabled baby and therefore may chose to abort them.

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Reply 6
I agree with him tbh. I agree with a lot he says and I think a lot people do too but don't want to admit it because his views sound 'too harsh' or socially unacceptable in their eyes.

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Okay, harsh choice of words, but perfectly reasonable argument.

I always feel uneasy when discussing this topic because the inevitable thing comes up of 'They said I was going to have Down's and my mum went through with it and it turns out I'm perfectly healthy'. There is always that risk, but whilst the prospect of aborting a healthy kid is horrible, it's very rare and which is more damaging: aborting a healthy foetus when it has no nervous system or sentience and is basically not alive yet and can't feel pain, or subjecting a child to a lifetime of learning difficulties, limited potential and bad health because of lung/heart issues?
Could definitely have phrased it better, but his argument is perfectly valid.
Reply 9
Original post by paradoxicalme
Okay, harsh choice of words, but perfectly reasonable argument.

I always feel uneasy when discussing this topic because the inevitable thing comes up of 'They said I was going to have Down's and my mum went through with it and it turns out I'm perfectly healthy'. There is always that risk, but whilst the prospect of aborting a healthy kid is horrible, it's very rare and which is more damaging: aborting a healthy foetus when it has no nervous system or sentience and is basically not alive yet and can't feel pain, or subjecting a child to a lifetime of learning difficulties, limited potential and bad health because of lung/heart issues?


I work with loads of people with downs syndrome and they can have amazing lives and achieve a lot. They have tonnes of potential! We have a boy with downs syndrome who works in the office there don't have to be limits unless someone puts up barriers for them.
The health issues are the big thing for me in the abortion case. But again that varies depending on the individual. But then again so does health in general! I mean for all you know your unborn child may go on to have leukemia or heart failure or any other horrible health problems but that doesnt mean you should never have a child just incase they have poor health does it?

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Original post by em.d_4
I work with loads of people with downs syndrome and they can have amazing lives and achieve a lot. They have tonnes of potential! We have a boy with downs syndrome who works in the office there don't have to be limits unless someone puts up barriers for them.
The health issues are the big thing for me in the abortion case. But again that varies depending on the individual. But then again so does health in general! I mean for all you know your unborn child may go on to have leukemia or heart failure or any other horrible health problems but that doesnt mean you should never have a child just incase they have poor health does it?

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They can achieve a lot, but they do have a cap on their potential just by having Down's in the first place. That's unavoidable. I've worked with Down's kids in the past, they're a joy and they work so hard, so it's difficult seeing that because they're born with a mental handicap they are at a permanent disadvantage.

But heart failure usually strikes much later in life and the chance of a healthy kid getting leukaemia is much less than the chance of a child with Down's having holes in their heart. If you told me my foetus had a 95% chance of developing possibly-terminal leukaemia then I'd consider abortion.
Reply 11
Original post by paradoxicalme
They can achieve a lot, but they do have a cap on their potential just by having Down's in the first place. That's unavoidable. I've worked with Down's kids in the past, they're a joy and they work so hard, so it's difficult seeing that because they're born with a mental handicap they are at a permanent disadvantage.

But heart failure usually strikes much later in life and the chance of a healthy kid getting leukaemia is much less than the chance of a child with Down's having holes in their heart. If you told me my foetus had a 95% chance of developing possibly-terminal leukaemia then I'd consider abortion.


I see what you're saying but we're all 100% going to die so providing you make the most of the time you have then why should it matter whether you have a shorter life expectancy?
There's a chance that anyone of us could die young, but we can't spend all day worrying about it otherwise we may as well just skip to the dying!
I know it's not a direct link but check out Stephen hawking. Think his mum might have though abortion was a good idea if she'd known what his quality of life could end up? Quite possibly but look how that turned out.

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Disgusting comments. Truly insensitive.
Anyone who is outraged at his comments when reading them in context is a moron. It especially wasn't surprising to see the Mail reacting as they so typically do at the slightest hint of intellectual conversation or rational thought.

Essentially if the Down's Syndrome that a foetus has would greatly affect their quality of life, then perhaps a termination should be considered. It is entirely up to the mother, but it isn't an illogical argument, and such an opinion definitely doesn't warrant such reactionary headlines.
Reply 14
Original post by ThatPerson
Anyone who is outraged at his comments when reading them in context is a moron. It especially wasn't surprising to see the Mail reacting as they so typically do at the slightest hint of intellectual conversation or rational thought.

Essentially if the Down's Syndrome that a foetus has would greatly affect their quality of life, then perhaps a termination should be considered. It is entirely up to the mother, but it isn't an illogical argument, and such an opinion definitely doesn't warrant such reactionary headlines.


It isn't entirely illogical to suggest that disabled children could be aborted but I do think the comments highlight certain misconceptions about downs syndrome and a range of other disabilities. In particular the quality of life and potential people with these disabilities may have.


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Insensitive to people with DS but I see where he's coming from

He's still a dick.
Original post by Sanctimonious
Disgusting comments. Truly insensitive.


Your user's a bit appropriate here.

How are our comments 'disgusting' and 'insensitive'? I understand that anyone with Down's or a similar condition probably doesn't want to think about themselves being aborted, but logically, aborting children with conditions like these is very common and is absolutely justified. You painlessly spare a potential kid from a reduced quality of life, and it is also justified to avoid the huge strain that raising a kid with disabilities brings.
Reply 17
Original post by Algorithm69
His message is sound but using Twitter and its character limit to express it was a very poor choice. I don't know what the obsession is with people using Twitter to convey incredibly complex and nuanced opinions that have the capacity to be taken the wrong way even without a character limit.

tl;dr, going to need cliffs of this in 140 characters.
Completely agree, no problem
I truly, truly hate this man. He's a brilliant biologist but the moment he starts talking about anything else, I feel like throttling him. Some of the stuff he says is just so disgusting, unfair and above all, ignorant. He is saying that the lives of people with Down's Syndrome are worth less than the lives of 'normal' people. If you ask anyone with Down's Syndrome whether they would rather be alive or have been aborted to be replaced by an 'ordinary' child, I can guarantee that they'd rather be alive. People with Down's are perfectly happy human beings than can function in society. Parents will legitimise their actions by pretending that they're being merciful, but this is just a lie. This isn't a disease that will give the child unbearable chronic pain or some other terrible condition that will give them an awfully low quality of life. People with Down's are happy - different, but happy. If you abort your child because they've got Down's (or indeed anything else), you're not 'removing' an illness from your child, you are killing a potential human. You are making a verdict that you do not think the life of a human with Down's is worth existing.

And it's the start of a dangerous, slippery slope. If it's acceptable to abort a child because they have Down's, what's next? How soon will it be until it's acceptable to abort a child because they are likely to be autistic? When will it become acceptable for a parent to select the genetic traits of their children?
(edited 9 years ago)

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